Rate Sandshrew's Team Again!

[Sandshrew]

This is my team on the Shoddy servers at the moment, the team has an impressive win rate, about 75%. I am thinking of re-creating it on my platinum. I am just looking to improve this team as much as possible before i begin to put time and effort into it on my ds.


Swampert @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EV: 240 HP | 216 Def | 52 Sp Atk
Nature: Relaxed

- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Ice Beam / Protect
- Earthquake

Standard Mix-Pert, I love this guy! I have tried many leads but I always come back to Swampert. General strategy is to set up rocks then try to trash the place. Surf is there for a reliable STAB move, as is Earthquake. The last move slot is debatable, Ice beam does provide a great coverage move to cover Swampert's 4x weakness to grass moves. However with the, large amounts of suicide leads, I tend to lean towards putting protect here instead, either to scout, or to screw-over exploding poke's.


Jolteon @ Choice Specs
Trait: Volt Absorb
EV: 4 HP | 252 Sp Atk | 252 Spd
Nature: Timid

- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power (Grass)
- Signal Beam / Baton Pass

Jolteon is my most expendable pokemon, He is really there to kill pesky Gyrados and provide a huge special attack. Thunderbolt is the go-to STAB move on any Jolteon, so no surprises there. Shadow Ball hits the likes of Celebi. Hidden Power Grass is there to hit bulky water pokemon. The last move slot is a choice between Signal Beam and Baton Pass. Baton Pass offers a scouting option, but Signal Beam can damage Tyranatar significantly.

Should I switch Jolteon out for another Poke'? (Infernae counter?)


Salamence @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EV: 232 Atk | 252 Spd | 24 Sp Atk (or 4 HP | 252 Atk | 252 Spd)
Nature: Naughty

- Dragon Dance
- Fire Blast / Fire Fang
- Outrage
- Earthquake

Salamence is the powerhouse of my team, after 1 or 2 Dragon Dances nothing can stand in his way. Fire Blast is for hitting Steel Types, like Jiraichi, Metagross (though earthquake works better here) and Skarmory. And earthquake provides a great coverage move or if I dont want to risk an outrage early in the match. I chose no to max Salamence's attack to the full 252evs so i could get a bit more power out of fire blast.

(I will try Salamence with Fire Fang and see what move I prefer, however I don't want to make my team overly Physical...)

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EV: 156 HP | 108 Atk | 76 Def | 168 Spd
Nature: Jolly

- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Taunt / Ice Fang / Thunder Fang

Waterfall is a staple on gyarados and after a DD it becomes her best kill move. Stone Edge is there to hit fliers. Taunt is there to stop anything slower than it trying anything funny (sleeping it or trying to DD). The 168 speed evs are to out-speed the far more common bulky gyarados.

Togekiss @ Lum Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EV: 4 HP | 252 Sp Atk | 252 Spd
Nature: Modest

- Air Slash
- Aura Sphere
- Roost
- Nasty Plot

Togekiss is my primary special attacker so 252 special attack and 252 speed are musts. The moves are standard Air Slash for STAB and flinch and Aura Sphere for hard hitting and additional coverage. Roost is for healing whenever I get the chance, thought it usually means sacrificing a nasty plot. Nasty plot is there to prepare to sweep, mostly in the late game.

Metagross @ Leftovers
Trait: Clear Body
EV: 252HP | 244 Def | 12 Spd
Nature: Impish

- Ice Punch / Thunder Punch
- Explosion
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake

Metagross is this teams Jack-of-all-trades. An elemental punch for coverage, thought i don;t know which one to chose, if rocks are up then ice punch is less necessary as most dragons are 4x weak to SR. Earthquake as another coverage move and Meteor Mash provides a powerful STAB move, even if it does tend to miss when you need it the most. And after its job is done he explodes and tries to take something with him.

Rate away, I look forward to any suggestions!

Changes in Bold~

 

[Pokedra]

You'd want Roar > Surf on Swampert. Ice Beam/Earthquake give you eniugh coverage and Roar helps you shift through their team.

Jolteon doesn't learn U-Turn, don't you mean Baton Pass ^0^

You could run Fire Fang over Fire Blast as it deals more then Fire Blast after a DD and it allows you just to run a 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe @ Adamant spread. It's not necessary though.

Looks pretty good. I'll drop by later if I see anything else.

 

[Ooka]

Well, I know I'm a bit of a broken record, but Infernape isn't kind to your team. Nothing can serve as a check or counter for that matter.

Swampert - Grass Knot
Jolteon - CC or Flamethrower
Salamence - HP Ice
Gyarados - Grass Knot (Or T-Punch even)
Togekiss - Close Combat / HP Ice / T-Punch
Metagross - Flamethrower

ScarfTogekiss would be nice, as if they aren't expecting it Ape will be out early.

 

[Sandshrew]

Jolteon doesn't learn U-Turn, don't you mean Baton Pass ^0^

em, Yeah I mean Baton pass.

Well, I know I'm a bit of a broken record, but Infernape isn't kind to your team. Nothing can serve as a check or counter for that matter.

OK, I see now that I am very Infernape weak, my usual strategy for dealing with him is to explode him, but do you feel that I should change Jolteon for an Ape counter?

thanks for the comments!! Keep them coming!

 

[Eos Aduro]

Well Jolteon can easily revenge kill Infernape, but if you want a straight special counter, ScarfLatias works well, it can switch into CC and Flamethrower and Surf/Draco Meteor it to death.

 

[wolf]

You could run Fire Fang over Fire Blast as it deals more then Fire Blast after a DD and it allows you just to run a 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe @ Adamant spread. It's not necessary though.

I thought Fire Blast is needed to OHKO Skarmory so it does not Whirlwind you, a +1 Fire Fang 2HKOs, giving Skarmory to PHaze you out and lose your stat boosts. It does do more to Bronzong, but both 2HKOs. Is there something I am missing?

 

[Dark Azelf]

I thought Fire Blast is needed to OHKO Skarmory so it does not Whirlwind you, a +1 Fire Fang 2HKOs, giving Skarmory to PHaze you out and lose your stat boosts. It does do more to Bronzong, but both 2HKOs. Is there something I am missing?

+ 1 DD LO Fire Fang does like ~77% to Skarmory, which still wrecks it beyond belief, Skarmory also cant directly threaten mence anyway.


+ 1 DD LO Fire Fang OHKO's Forry regardless.


+ 1 DD LO does way more to Zong.

Fire Fang also does more net damage vs everything else in the game thanks to the DD boost.

Fire Blast doesnt do much on physical sets basically and forces you to cut mences respectable defenses for something that doesnt really help it more than Fire Fang.



Also why would you scarf Latias, it is like THE Pursuit bait and outruns ape even without the scarf so i dont get that.


3 of your pokes are SR weak, you might wanna fix that.

 

[Eos Aduro]

Yeah I've always used Fire Fang on DDMence, its far superior after a DD. If you want to use Fire Blast more effectively, MixMences EVs are better suited for the job.

Scarf Latias when Timid can defeat every DD user in the game after a DD, excluding full HP Tyranitar. Its the best revenge killer for Salamence, Gyarados, Flygon, Breloom (with something else activating Sleep Clause), Dragonite, Gengar(Excluding ScarfGar unless its locked into something other than Shadow Ball), Hippowdon, Gliscor, Infernape, Jolteon, Rhyperior, and it can Trick Scarf onto walls like Blissey. Yeah, Pursuit is problematic, but so is every Latias, the Timid Choice Scarf set I use is one of the best I've found, and works on the team.

 

[Anti]

Having actually battled this team with Team Luvdisc, I think I might be able to shed some light on the problems. (Also, I'm pretty sure it was with Scarf Latias >>> Gyarados though I might be wrong).

First of all, I think ScarfLatias is fool's gold here, and that's not just my hatred of Choice Scarfers speaking. Infernape, while by no means well covered, doesn't really destroy your team. Gyarados is a pretty good switch into it - no one Grass Knots the first turn, so it will buy you time, and it will probably scare it off. You also have Jolteon to revenge kill it anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. In other words, if you had a threat list, it would probably be orange, but not red (out of green/orange/red). Latias is obviously a good switch-in, but it's not much better than Gyarados, and it provides much less sweeping power and one more opportunity for your opponent to set up something. Remember, 260 Atk MixApe can do up to 40% with resisted Close Combat, so it's not like you're switching in for free.

As for why Scarf Latias isn't a good idea for this team (besides the fact that it doesn't help a whole lot with Infernape lol), there are several reasons. As D_A mentioned, it's Pursuit bait to the extreme. Losing to the most common set of by far the most used Pokemon in OU is a huge disadvantage. Losing it to Pursuit basically means that your one revenge killer for however many threats is gone. Bad.

More importantly though, it doesn't actually revenge much. I'll go down the list Midnight Winged did...

Salamence: Definitely helps with this I cannot deny. That being said, it doesn't helped with MixMence at all since it can just switch out, take your weak unboosted hit, and then set up something else. But for DDMence, it's golden.

Gyarados: Gyarados has 100 base SDef, so Draco Meteor could do as little as 62% on min HP/min Def Gyarados. Running Thunderbolt is like begging not just Pursuiters to own you but also stuff like Jolteon and Flygon to come in. You basically have to sac something to kill it, and that's assuming you have SR down and Draco Meteor doesn't miss.

Flygon: Flygon is always choiced. Revenge killing Choice users is stupid. They're hit and run Pokemon not just in name only lol. Of course, Flygon does abuse Outrage, but Swampert and Metagross already handle it fine.

Tyranitar: rofl even Hidden Power Fighting barely 2HKOes, and that's on min HP/min Def Tyranitar. Latias revenge killing this is not going to happen ever.

Dragonite: No one uses this anymore, and good players don't use the DD set for obvious reasons. In many ways, it's in the same boat as Flygon, only forcing it out does more damage because of Stealth Rock.

Gengar: Jolteon kills this already.

Breloom: He can already revenge this with basically his whole team.

Infernape: Explained this earlier.

Jolteon: "Revenge killing hit and run Pokemon is stupid."

Gliscor: Swampert kills this already.

Hippowdon: Revnege killing Hippowdon is like using a navy to defend yourself against Mongolia (hint: it's landlocked). Hippowdon is a wall, if you have to revenge kill it, your team sucks. Of course, Swampert beats it and Metagross can lure it in so...

Rhyperior: If it's not behind a Sub then Latias beats it. Of course no one uses Rhyperior though...

--------------

So, what do you actually beat with Scarf Latias? DDMence, Outraging Flygon (which you already handle), Gyarados to an extent (which Jolteon handles to an extent as well...), and Rhyperior? Does that really sound very smart? Especially when you consider that Draco Meteoring Gyarados or Flygon or whoever is basically giving SDLuke/Scizor/Tyranitar/Metagame to come in and set up on you/crush you.

Scarf Latias doesn't address the main problem with your team, which, in my opinion, is three Flying-types. Togekiss doesn't actually do a whole lot for the offensive whole of this team. It gives Zapdos and Rotom free switch-ins, and you don't handle either of them particularly well (especially WoW Rotom). I would take it out for a much-needed sturdy sweeper. I was actually thinking Flygon. Defensively, it covers Electrics with Swampert and gives you some form of defense against stalling tactics. Offensively, it scouts with U-turn which is just lovely, but more importantly, it can knock out or severely weaken Bulky Waters/Cresselia to give both Gyarados and Salamence a fairly open sweeper. Sacrificing Flygon for the greater good isn't necessarily a bad thing. the set would be CB btw...Scarf is pretty mediocre.

Next, I would do something about your ridiculous SDLuke weakness. Your only real defense is Salamence, which is shaky at best. Scarfing Metagross or simply replacing that for Heatran could work...of course, using Heatran makes your team really good Porygon2 bait, actually, so Metagross might be the better choice. It also does better against Weavile, if that matters at all. You could basically run the same set you're doing now @ Choice Scarf, but with a more offensive EV spread obviously. If you use CB Flygon, that leaves you with 3 choide item uses, which is a lot. If you wanted to, you could run Life Orb >>> Choice Specs on Jolteon with the same set for move freedom, which eases prediction. Also, BP is way better than Signal Beam, and while you do have Celebi problems, Shadow Ball does the job well enough.

The only thing I think you actually need to change is Togekiss, which is a total misfit. You'll want to fix up your SDLuke weak, and extra Gyarados security might not be a bad idea since you have problems with it. It's actually not a bad team. Defensively, it has its shortcomings, but an Ice Punch/ThunderPunch/Earthquake/Meteor Mash Metagross @ Choice Scarf could help with a lot of your problems.

Good luck, I'm mega tired so half of this probably doesn't make sense lol.

 

[Yaliw]

This is a different togekiss that i think you'll enjoy much more, as paraflinch hax is amazing:
Togekiss @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EV: 4 HP | 252 Sp Atk | 252 Spd
Nature: Modest

- Air Slash
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Flame Thrower/Aura Sphere
Thunder Wave then Air Slash everything for 60% chance to flinch and 25% chance to full paralyze. If the enemy brings in a steel-type then you have Flamethrower handy. Aura Sphere i havent had much luck with as Bronzong and Metagross arent dazzled by it. You shouldnt have Togekiss in for Blissey anyway so I will always pick Flamethrower over Aura Sphere.

You also have WAY too many stat-sweepers anyway. This guy is useable right off the bat, no need to set up (except Paralyze but you dont need it agianst slower opponents really)

 

[Sulituan]

Hmm, Salamence with Life Orb? I usually go for Lum Berry. That way, when it's done outraging, you don't have to worry about confusion.

 

[Sandshrew]

Thanks for all the input!

Especially Anti for crushing me repeatedly with team luvdisk.....

Expect me to update my team in a few hours (after work...)