1st Gen RBY Plot Discussion

[bobandbill]

What did you think about the plot of the RBY games? They were the first games of Pokemon and probably also the simplest (you fight TR on the way to becoming the champion and stop them doing... stuff), but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Did you like the plot of the games, or do you feel it should be changed or dread plaything through parts when you replay RBY for its re-release? What about characters like Giovanni, or your rival - do you like them or hate them?


Side note: there is an article to be written on Daily about this topic (see discussion here) - anything that comes up here may be used in what I'll write! Any sort of suggestion for that is welcome here. =)

 

[esperance]

Like you said, there isn't really much of a story to comment on. You bounce from Gym to Gym while being detoured by Team Rocket a few times. This isn't a bad thing, as the focus of the games is the raising/collecting of the Pokemon and battling random trainers.

Unlike later games at lot of what we do in RBY isn't really given as much justification -- like why are we bothering to fight Team Rocket beyond Mt. Moon?

Frankly the gameplay is rather limited in RBY which is probably why as long as it remains the same as the originals, I've no interest in getting this version.

 

[BettyNewbie]

As others have said, RBY didn't really have a plot. Most characters are cardboard cutouts, and nothing about the story, from Team Rocket, to the Marowak Ghost, to Mewtwo, is even remotely fleshed out or given depth. It makes the games very easy to pick up and play, but it also makes them rather dull and underwhelming compared to later games.

 

[illumine]

They were the first games of Pokemon and probably also the simplest (you fight TR on the way to becoming the champion and stop them doing... stuff), but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Eh, 'simplest' is a weird way of putting that. Other than that being more descriptive of the next gen, and the versions from Gen. III onwards effectively just repeating R/S/E's plot with considerably less interest, the various plot-lines including the Silph Scope, the Tower, and so on are fairly elaborate and hardly akin to 'stuff,' which would be more akin to the 'Slowpoke well' events involving 'Kurt' in Gen. II. In any case, the two intersect, while in later games they would basically just become a distraction, but realistically these are not simpler shades than for instance R/S/E's 'people want to burn everything all of a sudden,' and contributes to the more nuanced atmosphere of the early games. What else people are asking for from a plot, a subordinate part of the game, is curious.

In any case, obviously it is a game, which has its own progression and antagonism to the player, and this seems more important than an essentially external 'plot' being tagged on, which is most of the later games (although G/S/C do have the nice 'TR are giving you easily-catchable Gyarados' thing, which is amusing.) Nice flourishes like a rock-type - a type reputed for its resistances - gym starting out, for instance, as a certain sign of the game's immediate hostility, and then being reprised in the return of such types in the final gym, are a nice way in which the game has a 'plot' of its own without needing to be distracted by cut-scenes.

Unlike later games at lot of what we do in RBY isn't really given as much justification -- like why are we bothering to fight Team Rocket beyond Mt. Moon?

To see ghosts and a dead female Marowak.

As others have said, RBY didn't really have a plot. Most characters are cardboard cutouts

There aren't many characters, per se, but most characters who serve a definite purpose in a work are going to be 'cardboard cutouts.'

 

[BettyNewbie]

There aren't many characters, per se, but most characters who serve a definite purpose in a work are going to be 'cardboard cutouts.'

I have zero idea what you mean by this, to be honest. o_O

 

[illumine]

I have zero idea what you mean by this, to be honest. o_O

You can always get away with that with such a name. To simplify.

 

[Bay]

I agree with ilumine that some of the TR events in the first games like the Sliph Scope and the Lost Tower were actually pretty fun. Giovanni being the last gym leader and TR's leader was an interesting twist in my opinion, too. Overall the first games' plot had some neat stuff going on.

In terms of characters, I already mentioned Giovanni, but I also think Blue does well as a rival for reasons many people mentioned in the Rival thread. The gym leaders weren't too memorable, but there were a few with some neat backstories like Lt. Surge that I thought were nice.

 

[Light and Darkness Dragon]

So we are here to talk about RWBY without Weiss? JK
I enjoyed this video breaking down the elements of what made pokemon pokemon

As for the plot of RBY you start in Pallet town. I assume your mother is related to Professor Oak because i don't know how she makes money to pay for that mortgage.
I'm not sure how long the PC has lived there before you inhabit its body. They walk into grass which is a big no-no, and theres a guy who gardens, and doesn't have a house in Pallet town. Perhaps he is a friend of your rivals sister who gives you a map.

You step into the grass, and are attacked by a pokemon, and Professor Oak saves you. You go to the next town with your new pokemon after having your first battle with your rival. You find a drunk laying in middle of the road and the game stops you because it'd be rude to step over the drunk man. When he wakes up he catches an infinite number of weedle. You get a paracel, and find a pokemon gym. Every other house and building doesn't have a lock (even silph co.) but this one does. The gym is closed until the gym leader gets back. This gets the player curious.

There's a lot of great stuff in the game but I want to eat and shower. When I get back maybe I'll write up a non passive aggressive plot.
Fighting Team Rocket just happened by mistake.

 

[illumine]

You find a drunk laying in middle of the road and the game stops you because it'd be rude to step over the drunk man. When he wakes up he catches an infinite number of weedle.

Which can then lead to the game becoming a glitchy mess with strange Pokémon. Now, wait a minute.

Isn't that kind of great?

The gym leaders weren't too memorable, but there were a few with some neat backstories like Lt. Surge that I thought were nice.

To be fair, it was somewhat nice that the Gym Leaders were somewhat marginalised by the game in favour of locations and exotic Pokémon, which was perhaps important to keep the focus on the Pokémon rather than the Gym Leaders, which are merely targets that any other game or series has as much. You did somewhat like where G/S went with Surge, though, where the trainers in the gym being somewhat passive-aggressive and overly defensive about Lt. Surge gave the gym a strange and slightly disturbing aura where the player entered Kanto and was not welcome at all; although in a sense G/S did go further with this sense of criticism towards the Gym Leaders, with a more systematic examination of how their moves and such worked - with Bugsy, Whitney, and such basically just using one move or cue and then relying on the player to have problems with this, after weaker Pokémon, and this became their whole 'strategy' in lieu of any interest gyms might be expected to have - and their having Pokemon besides those used in the Gym, etc., and at the same time this allowed their occasional distaste towards such things to show through as well.

Although it has to be said, their choice of the flower-shop next to Whitney's gym as a bar to further game progress was an interesting call-back.

 

[Light and Darkness Dragon]

Yes, yes it is. Infinite Master balls.

 

[illumine]

Yes, yes it is. Infinite Master balls.

You sure they weren't just using alcohol for luck manipulation? Or someone spiked their drink?

I guess that infinite master balls is a bit like a drug. At least, someone was going on about that in Twilight. So the mention.

That said, there are a couple of interesting events with that guy, such as the second gen's reference to a 'double-shot' from them after they needed multiple tries to catch a Rattata in Yellow, and their needing the player's assurance that they still believe that they were once an expert on catching Pokémon (in addition to which the glitch had by then been removed, in some manner, followed by their saying, "I was something out of the ordinary.")

 

[BettyNewbie]

Let's be honest, I think the Kanto Gym Leaders would have been nearly as forgotten as many of the later ones (like Hoenn's or Sinnoh's) if not for the then insanely popular anime. The likes of Brock and Misty don't even exist as characters outside of their iconic anime counterparts, and much of what we know about Lt. Surge and Sabrina comes from Ash's infamous battles against them, not the actual game battles. The anime gave these people personalities and backstories that the games never could.

It's a storytelling gap that's especially evident when you compare the Gym Leaders to the Elite Four from the same games. None of them ever got nearly as much cross-media spotlight as the Gym Leaders, and while Lance lucked out and became a much more important and fleshed out character in GSC, the other three weren't so lucky--Agatha is only marginally remembered for a vaguely-hinted romance with Oak, while Lorelei and Bruno have been completely forgotten.

 

[Bay]

Let's be honest, I think the Kanto Gym Leaders would have been nearly as forgotten as many of the later ones (like Hoenn's or Sinnoh's) if not for the then insanely popular anime. The likes of Brock and Misty don't even exist as characters outside of their iconic anime counterparts, and much of what we know about Lt. Surge and Sabrina comes from Ash's infamous battles against them, not the actual game battles. The anime gave these people personalities and backstories that the games never could.

It's a storytelling gap that's especially evident when you compare the Gym Leaders to the Elite Four from the same games. None of them ever got nearly as much cross-media spotlight as the Gym Leaders, and while Lance lucked out and became a much more important and fleshed out character in GSC, the other three weren't so lucky--Agatha is only marginally remembered for a vaguely-hinted romance with Oak, while Lorelei and Bruno have been completely forgotten.

Lt. Surge did actually mentioned before you battle him that Electric Pokemon saved him during the war (though which one I'm not sure if the games referenced it, lol). I admit it's pretty vague, but it does leave some neat ideas for his backstory. With Sabrina, there were some mentions of her defeating the ones in charge of the fighting dojo, but it's probably true more people would remember her expanded childhood from the anime. Otherwise, I agree with Misty and Brock probably won't be known without their anime counterparts and your mention of the Elite Four.

 

[BettyNewbie]

Lt. Surge did actually mentioned before you battle him that Electric Pokemon saved him during the war (though which one I'm not sure if the games referenced it, lol). I admit it's pretty vague, but it does leave some neat ideas for his backstory. With Sabrina, there were some mentions of her defeating the ones in charge of the fighting dojo, but it's probably true more people would remember her expanded childhood from the anime. Otherwise, I agree with Misty and Brock probably won't be known without their anime counterparts and your mention of the Elite Four.

There were hints of backstories with some of the characters, but most of them weren't truly fleshed out until the anime. I think back then, GF just assumed that character development was the job of the anime, so they mostly didn't bother with that stuff in the games. This, of course, had the unintended effect of leaving the Elite Four completely out in the cold, as the anime wanted nothing to do with them, either.

As the anime became less popular and more detached from the games, GF started putting more effort into characterization, although as XY showed, they still have a long way to go.

 

[illumine]

Let's be honest, I think the Kanto Gym Leaders would have been nearly as forgotten as many of the later ones (like Hoenn's or Sinnoh's) if not for the then insanely popular anime. The likes of Brock and Misty don't even exist as characters outside of their iconic anime counterparts

They very much exist, especially if people chose a Charmander. Obviously, it's Pokémon, they aren't recurring characters, but gym leaders that you defeat. It might also be influenced by the fact that that was when Pokémon was culturally influential - and the anime wasn't autonomous -, and as such those are likely to be 'remembered' far more than any of the later ones.

and much of what we know about Lt. Surge and Sabrina comes from Ash's infamous battles against them

Ash ultimately didn't battle Sabrina in obtaining the badge, they had a Haunter who laughed at them. The 'previous' gym involved them dressing up like a girl, because it was possibly the most disorganised excuse for an actual gym possible. People don't just treat these gyms as places from the anime. They presumably realise that they're looking for the Silph Scope in Celadon - or a Pokédoll, for Lavender Town -, to see the real identities of ghost Pokémon, rather than a disguise as a girl to enter the gym. Which is, again, interesting given the gym in that city, but in any case it's hardly as if plot-related game elements are something that people didn't place emphasis on.

It's a storytelling gap that's especially evident when you compare the Gym Leaders to the Elite Four from the same games. None of them ever got nearly as much cross-media spotlight as the Gym Leaders

The Elite 4 are supposed to be a bit behind-closed-doors, they're a challenge to defeat rather than thematic gyms. Although they may have shown up in the anime, there isn't any particular reason why they would have wanted the Elite 4 to be known in the same way as gym leaders. In-game, the Elite 4's dialogue was supposed to further the sense of a 'foreign' challenge from somewhere you were excluded, not necessarily to make them stand out as amicable 'characters,' mostly.

Gen. I was quite low on cut-scenes, which were only briefly there in G/S/C, accelerated a fair bit in R/S/E, and then took over mostly in D/P, so ultimately 'character development' is a question of what text a character was given - which as we've discussed with the old man could be quite ably done in the first two gens - rather than of convoluting the game to make them fit some pre-formed list of characteristics. If you have a problem with this approach, then sure, but it might be best not to pretend that they were trying a completely different approach or that the games were wholly incoherent for this, which they were not.

while Lance lucked out and became a much more important and fleshed out character in GSC

Now, Lance in G/S/C perhaps may be a cardboard cutout. But the earlier games do not generally have comparable characters across their region.

Agatha is only marginally remembered for a vaguely-hinted romance with Oak, while Lorelei and Bruno have been completely forgotten.

Bruno is unlikely to be wholly forgotten, as they had a certain association with the fighting type - which was very prominent in G/S/C, of course - which continued into the next generation.

 

[TheBaconToastie]

The plot of RBY's villains may seem very linear but on the face of it - it's easily the most believable.

Every team that has followed Team Rocket has been fronted by a mad man with unrealistic ideals and insane desires. All Giovanni was motivated by was money and power.

 

[curiousnathan]

For the first game of its kind, I like the plot. It might not be as open as other main-series Pokemon games, but there was a little leeway in the order of battling Gyms and what you could do. The plot itself was fun and engaging - I like the idea of having to travel around the region and fight some the strongest Pokemon trainers. I felt like I was on a journey rather than simply beating "levels" with the gym leaders as the major bosses of the game. The evil team plot, while simple in retrospect offered a great challenge . It might not have been as out-there as the plot for say, Team Galactic or Flare, but Team Rocket still had an sinister aura about them. I suppose you would expect that for a team who stole and traded Pokemon for money.

 

[BettyNewbie]

Illumine, you are clearly somebody who doesn't want to do anything but nitpick and argue, and I have no patience for people like that. Just accept that people have different interests and priorities from you and move on. :rolleyes2:

On that note, has anyone else's perception of the games changed as they've gotten older? I feel like I care a lot more about things like story and less about the battling critters nowadays than I did as a kid. The lack of story in RBY bothers me a lot more as an adult.

 

[illumine]

The plot of RBY's villains may seem very linear but on the face of it - it's easily the most believable.

Every team that has followed Team Rocket has been fronted by a mad man with unrealistic ideals and insane desires. All Giovanni was motivated by was money and power.

To be fair, a person with respect for either or both would not become a criminal - if they value power as such then they aren't subverting it -, so there was perhaps a bit of crazy about Giovanni. (Going into external media, Giovanni is shown as just as susceptible to playing with forces that he can't control, not to mention Team Rocket seemingly being holed up in a tower full of apparent ghosts, guarded by a ghostly Marowak.) There's also usually a bit of subtlety to them - for instance, most players (or you could say all of them) being shooed effetely from Celadon's gym, there's a secret entrance to the casino, and likewise their major schemes in G/S/C involve on the one hand a scheme involving 'Slowpoke Tails' reminiscent of the Magikarp salesman, and on the other hand turning everything into Gyarados, as indeed people tend to dislike Magikarp prior to this and hence the Magikarp thing seeming a scam, which is an interesting detail.

That said, if we're talking about being something seen as villainous, obviously at that time things with 'ideals' (and Magma for instance could only loosely be said to have such concretely, they were just attempting to make incremental improvements ultimately to shift things into a somehow better direction) were more alien and feared by people who associated it with crime than just the people working within the categories of society at the time, and in that sense TR were more anathemised for their slightly ruthless, ideal-driven edge than because everybody disliked and was supposed to dislike money, and related categories at that time.

I would agree on the 'believable' aspect to some degree, but perhaps mostly because TR's actions are most integrated into the game and its progression, while the later games took on a more cut-scene-based modus operandi (pardon) and this meant that the villainous teams' actions were portrayed in a realm basically separated from the rest of the game or the locations, etc., there, and as such just come off as a bunch of dramatic episodes detached from the rest or which aren't 'believable.' They hence mostly come across as loud. This is part of why they would have to be followed all the time by 'allies,' to remind you that this is somehow a villainous team, or criminals, when otherwise they don't seem that related to the people or region of the game. Team Magma's 'ideals' don't come across as that affecting because they are merely abstract, TR strike people because they are in conflict with things. If TR didn't have any particular ideals, then they would just turn themselves in.

The other aspect of this is that the teams became more a question of plot than their place in the game and region, so that while TR had an aesthetic, complemented by appropriate Pokémon, involving sneakiness, undermining normal order, undermining property rights (hence money), etc., the later teams are mostly reducible to just plot-specific goals such as awakening Groudon, etc., somewhat like the 'villain' in M02, and the rest mostly just follows from that. While TR obviously helped the franchise grow in some ways, after Magma it wasn't really any different.

It might not be as open as other main-series Pokemon games, but there was a little leeway in the order of battling Gyms and what you could do.

To be fair, while G/S became very open, the later games were based on a conception of plot-based games à la Final Fantasy where this was railroading and either lacked or actively discouraged openness in the game, and hence came to lean on the gyms and conventional aspects perhaps a bit more than the early games, which could be more cynical and detached. The opening of D/P, for instance, is an example of them wanting a plot or progression and forcing a player into it to a degree which pretty much immediately violates the nature of the game itself and the relation implied in creating a 'player-character.' It must be noted, pleasantly, that while such plots may occur at times in other games with real cutscenes at that time, or movies, they were mostly not present previously in these games.

The disjunction in order, as in later games, followed a ghost-themed area.

 

[Hiidoran]

Just gonna leave a small tidbit, because I don't really have walls of words to describe this. I think the plot was simple, but great. I think it was kept simple for a few reasons, one being for the platform it was originally launched on, and the other due to the nature of the game itself. It was meant to be your adventure discovering that world - just like childhood is your adventure discovering life. If they made the game more linear and scripted, I don't think we would have identified as much with it. Later games had to have a little... more to be successful, but the originals were free to be left pretty wide open.

Besides, I think there were some unique adventures in the originals. Maybe we just played them over so many times they no longer seem that way by comparison.