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Reassemble the Elite Four

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    1. Let's look back on every set of Elite Fours and every champion in every pokemon game ever made. If you could disassemble each and put together a complete new elite four that is far stronger than any elite four in any game: who would they include? and why?
    Feel free to argue against anyone's answers with good reasoning.
    I labeled this as question one because i might ask a different elite four question later.

    I am a lame noobie xD
     
    1. Let's look back on every set of Elite Fours and every champion in every pokemon game ever made. If you could disassemble each and put together a complete new elite four that is far stronger than any elite four in any game: who would they include? and why?
    Feel free to argue against anyone's answers with good reasoning.
    I labeled this as question one because i might ask a different elite four question later.

    I am a lame noobie xD
    Hi there, EeveeQ! Since you seem to be asking more about the Elite Four in the games, I'm going to move this over to Pokemon Gaming Central for you. Hope you don't mind! And I haven't come up with my ideal Elite Four yet, but when I do, I'll be sure to add my answer.

    MOVED.
     
    So guys which elite four member gave you the most problems? and how did you over come that problem? I certainly had problems with the ghost tyype trainer from black and white. I forget his name but his pokemon were fierce and I had to rely on the hypnosis and dream eater from my poor Musharna, whom almost fainted towards the end of the battle.
     
    Platinum's really was trouble only because of Cynthia, otherwise I was pretty good vs. all the other Elite Fours that I've taken on.
     
    I agree Cynthia was certainly a pain in the arse. But I am always up for a greater challenge... Her Garchomp almost overpowered my whole team the first time I went up against her.
     
    In no particular order like the Unova and Kalos region Pokémon League:
    Marshal
    Lance
    Phoebe
    Siebold

    Champion:
    Cynthia

    They are easily the hardest/trickiest ones. Siebold is actually a slot filler as the Elite that gave me real challenges are the first three.
     
    Here's my lineup for the elite four

    1. Shauntal (more better than Argha because gen1 and remake it's isn't exactly ghostly equivalent)
    2. Siebold
    3. Drake
    4. Will / Catherine
    Champion: Alder


    Above line ups makes the league more edgier than taking very easy advantage and it's more balance. And the above line ups doesn't include elite four with pokemon that isn't elite four specialty like above case Argha for example due her team just too much same pokemon or none specialty
     
    Here's my lineup for the elite four

    1. Shauntal (more better than Argha because gen1 and remake it's isn't exactly ghostly equivalent)
    2. Siebold
    3. Drake
    4. Will / Catherine
    Champion: Alder


    Above line ups makes the league more edgier than taking very easy advantage and it's more balance. And the above line ups doesn't include elite four with pokemon that isn't elite four specialty like above case Argha for example due her team just too much same pokemon or none specialty

    Presume you mean Agatha rather than Argha?

    For me...
    Will
    Lorelei
    Phoebe
    Drake

    Champ - Blue

    Unfortunately missed the boat when it came to Gen 4 and 5 (had the games, but never got around to finishing them, then lost interest in Pokémon until Gen 6 popped around). Gen 6 disappointed me, partly because each E4 member only had 4 Pokémon (hell, I could level that at the whole Gym System - none of them had any more than 3 Pokémon).
     
    I meant Agath just a typo there.

    Indeed, XY only have fewer pokemons. Elite four should have compete 5 and it's no pushover either.
     
    Well, tbh it would take more than changing which E4 we fight to make them actually hard. Plenty of them have poor teams.
     
    ^ I also never battled Alder. I mean N defeated him, and then we defeated N, so that makes us the champion right? Yeah lol.

    Anyway, Kanto's elite four was the one that gave me most problems :o Blue especially. Lorelei was annoying too.

    And Cynthia, OH GOD.
     
    Wow, even in in their own thread, Elite Four members are being overshadowed by Champions. They'll never catch a break, will they?

    So quite a few days ago, I've pretty much browsed all over youtube for people's favorite Champions, and was (pleasantly, but that's not relevant!) surprised when people mentioned Cynthia as the top champion.

    You were surprised by that?

    This makes me think that it'd be kinda nice to have Cynthia back in a future game, and be even tougher. ^__^

    HELL to the no. Champion Barbie has already appeared in more than enough games, and I'd honestly rather not see or hear from her again outside of Gen 4 remakes (which won't happen for a LONG time). Better to let some other characters get the spotlight for a change. (Like the poor, neglected E4 members this thread was meant to be about.)
     
    So, you have no problem with a region appearing 5 times (with little to no differences, but I digress), but a problem with a champion appearing three times?

    Apples to oranges. GSC were direct sequels to RBY, and FRLG and HGSS were remakes of both prequel and sequel. Kanto's appearance made sense in all 4 games, and in reality, it's only two settings/stories that it's appeared in (since half of them are remakes).

    Champion Barbie, on the other hand, has appeared in equally as many games (DPP, HGSS, BW, and B2W2), yet none of them are remakes or even direct sequels to her original games! She was literally shoehorned in for no reason or purpose, whatsoever!

    Take a look at some of the E4 members mentioned in this thread. Many of them have literally not been seen or heard from for as long as a decade or more! (Including the E4 from Champion Barbie's own region, as well as two from that "overrated" Kanto region you love so much.) What will it take for the likes of Lorelei or Lucian to exist in the games again? All of Champion Barbie's cameos could've just as easily gone to these characters instead, as well as many others.

    Cynthia imo is one of the most mysterious, yet interesting champions to this day! She can make as many appearances as she wants.

    I assume the amount of "mystery" in her is in direct proportion to the size of her chest, right? :rolleyes2: Yeah, we all have our crushes, okay to admit it.
     
    So, you have no problem with a region appearing 5 times (with little to no differences, but I digress), but a problem with a champion appearing three times? Cynthia imo is one of the most mysterious, yet interesting champions to this day! She can make as many appearances as she wants.

    The problem was that Cynthia's appearance in 5th gen games was nothing but pure fanservice. She was there completely randomly and served no purpose. Even Looker, whose appearance was also fanservice, had more "function" in the games outside of Sinnoh he's in than her.

    Cynthia is a great Champion but not that good of a character. She's a bit of a Mary Sue and never does anything really relevant even in Platinum. I don't hate her, but she could've had more "active" participation in the games. The Stat Trainers help you more than Cynthia, actually, and they're side characters.

    Cynthia is supposed to follow the mentor trope somewhat, but GF seems to have forgotten that mentors actually fight beside the protagonist sometimes. :P
     
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    She was put into the games the same reason Red was "shoehorned" in HGSS (and Blue in BW2, etc). She acts as a powerful trainer for you to battle. Whether or not you agree with that purpose is irrelevant, because that's what she's there for.

    Red was in Gen 2 because Gen 2 is a sequel to Gen 1 (which Red was the protagonist of). The ultimate goal was for Gold/Kris to surpass the kid who came before them.

    Champion Barbie, on the other hand, has zero relevance to BW and B2W2. Neither are direct sequels to DPP or have any relevance to the Sinnoh/Team Galactic storyline. She has no damn reason AT ALL to be in Unova.

    I agree that the E4 needs to have more purpose (just look at my posts in the PGC DCC or PGen DCC, dont remember which.) It is just my opinion that she should appear in more games because she's a more fleshed out champion than the others. Feel free to disagree, but that's just me!

    It's debatable if she's really that "fleshed out" (aside from her chest, that is, LOL) to begin with, but assuming she is, why do you think that's so? She's appeared in 4 different games! Give the others some spotlight, and they'll be fleshed out, too.

    If you want to talk about Cynthia's chest, you're more than welcome to re-create the attractive Pokegirls thread (and appropriately reference it). Otherwise, this statement seems rather irrelevant. ^___^

    I'm a straight woman, but thank you for the offer. :rolleyes2:

    (And, we ALL know you have crush on her, don't lie. ;))
     
    Alright, we've had enough discussion about Cynthia's non-dong expanding Drifloons. Let's bring the topic back on track.
     
    So what you're saying is that besides having the most interaction with the player in D/P/P as well as acting in a role of a researcher in HG/SS and giving the player info on Arceus, that she isnt an "active" character?

    She interacts with the player, but her interactions are devoid of meaning. She's such a powerful trainer and offers zero help against Team Galactic and Giratina throughout the story. The only worthwhile thing she does is explaining to the player what Giratina is.

    Not to mention her anime appearances turned her into a blatant Mary Sue. She never loses even when faced with glaring type disadvantage (Garchomp makes short work of Weavile for example). She's worse than Pikachu in that regard.

    HGSS doesn't really count since the Arceus thing is an event which is very possibly not canon at all.

    Keep in mind that I never claimed that Cynthia is some goddess character. She's interesting enough to me, that she should reappear in future games. That's all there is to it.

    She doesn't really need any more exposure IMO. The other champions are also interesting characters and deserve a chance.
     
    The thing is Cerberus, you can say that about literally every champion that has existed. None of the champions (aside from like Steven) help you out with the evil teams, heck, none of the Elite Four even bother, which is specifically why I said I agreed with the fact that I think they need more exposure as a result first and foremost, because they need some kind of purpose other than to just sit in their rooms all the time and challenge people. It makes them seem extremely one-dimensional and no one is really going to care about their character past "oh muk this guy sounds p tough"

    I'm not going to touch on the Mary Sue point because that's super subjective enough as it is; she could very well be a very powerful trainer in her own regard and know her muk. I haven't watched the anime in forever, so I'm not going to retort on that. I'm talking specifically from a gaming standpoint, she makes more appearances than every other champion bar Steven (maybe) and makes more interactions with the player, so you really know who she is from the very beginning, anyway.

    What might make her shallow or unfavorable as a character is the fact that she's very into her research, but she's no Diantha by any means; she's not a complete "question mark" character in the sense that you have a general idea of who she is and what her goals are, and you know that she's going to be a fair part of your journey, helping you out here and there but mostly in small amounts. She might give you an item, or might rant off on some research-y things (heh, she is more and more similar to Steven than I thought) for you to take note of (or not) and then she's on her way.

    Regardless of whether or not you find what she says meaningful (which seems to be the issue, if I'm correct?), she still makes appearances and little by little you know who she is, and she's more than just a champion, she's a powerful trainer with her mind set in Pokemon Lore and Research and that's what her focus is. With the exception of Blue and Steven as far as pure interaction and depth goes, she's relatively on top as far as her overall character development goes because it's not like she's a pointless character; she's there for a reason. Whether she's traveling to a different region, it's all for the same purpose, and you understand that purpose immediately. She's a traveling trainer and researcher, so it wouldn't be so far off point to have her re-appear again.

    *cough*cough*Lance*cough*cough*

    Lance does more in the Rocket Hideout than Cynthia does in the whole of Platinum.
     
    Really, Let's compare, or heck, let's use Bulbapedia!



    And Lance's:



    But hey, don't take Bulba's word for it. Let's really get into the nitty gritty, shall we, and compare and contrast their overall usefulness and see whether or not Lance truly did more in Rocket HQ than Cynthia did in the "entirety" of Platinum.

    Right away, I can definitely see that's a lie, since Cynthia has made a gazillion appearance to help the player throughout their journey, while Lance (and I verified this by watching several LP vids of Rocket Hideout) has made a grand total of roughly around 4 appearances in the Rocket Hideout. So, that being said, let's get into the appearances and what they actually mean in context:

    Lance:

    Appearance 1: You find the Rocket HQ with him. He said he'll explore it, and does so, with you following behind him.

    Appearance 2: You meet Lance a second time after you go down a floor, where he heals your Pokemon so you can continue.

    Appearance 3: He tells you something that you basically already know, anyway. Team Rocket Grunts have the passwords, you need to find it.

    Appearance 4: He helps you in a battle against TR, and then disables the machine with you, and he thanks you for your work, and he leaves.

    Cynthia: (and we're talking only Distortion World here)

    Appearance 1 & 2: Gives you some background on Giratina, and informs you that if nothing is done, the actual world would be destroyed along with the Distortion World. Same for her second appearance after you actually travel into the distortion world.

    Appearance 3: Basically informs the player that the Distortion World is a maze (something you knew mostly, already) and that you need to reach the bottom to see Giratina.

    Appearance 4: Gives you more background about Giratina, says that you'll have to split up with her and she'll meet up with you.

    Appearances 5: Either tells you that the specific area you're in (or maybe the Distortion World itself) is a puzzle (no muk) and that you'd need to solve it to keep moving. She then tells you to go to Uxie/Mesprit/Azelf as they'll help guide you through said puzzle.

    Appearance 6: Informs you that while the Lake Trio can hold their own against Dialga and Palkia, that they may not fare against Giratina, and thus that's why they might have gone home.

    Appearance 7 & 8: You meet her and she tells Cyrus basically to psyduck off ("Why do you seek to change the world? If you hate our world, you should just go off somewhere alone. Find somewhere where you can live without seeing others").

    Her "8th appearance" is basically her telling you that what Cyrus says is bullmuk and you shouldn't believe him. She heals your Pokemon, and she tells you more and more about what would happen if Giratina would be left unchecked, and explains why both worlds (your world and hers) are distorted. Tell you that you need to either defeat or capture Giratina to finally stop the craziness going on.

    Appearance 9: She appears again after you catch Giratina. She tries to reason with Cyrus yet again, this is to no avail, and he leaves. Cynthia meets up with you again in Sendoff Spring, thanks you for helping out, and she leaves.

    So, Cerberus, where does that leave us? It's true, I will fully admit that I overlooked one thing and one thing only: Lance battles Team Rocket with you....once. And only because he figured it was necessary at the time. Cynthia has not, she's far more interested in studying about Pokemon and how they came to be, their origins, and everything else a Pokemon Researcher consists of. The other reason why Cynthia doesn't help you to battle Cyrus is relatively simple: it's your journey, not hers to take. She could very easily manhandle Cyrus (the same way Lance manhandled Silver, apparently), but she chose not to because you'd be better off for the job.

    However, again, visiting your main point, does Lance do more in Rocket Hideout than Cynthia does in the entirety of Platinum like you claim? I heavily disagree and this is bordering on actually being really false. Keep in mind that I'm discounting Cynthia's many other appearances throughout the game so the player becomes more and more familiar with who she is and her general character (we know she has family, as evidenced with her giving you the Old Charm to give to her grandmother, therefore fleshing out her character more. Lance also has family, what with Clair being his cousin and his grandfather being the elder of the Dragon Masters clan).

    If you're going to claim something like one champion does more than another, make sure the games actually support your claims and that you're not spouting nonsense. As I said in my previous post, Cynthia is a Pokemon researcher and she likes sharing her findings with you. Whether you find that meaningful or not is irrelevant, but she does so anyway throughout her myriad of appearances in Gen IV. Now, it can also be said that their overall contributions are just about equal, however I'm having a hard time dismissing the fact that, again, Cynthia appears many times on your journey in D/P/P to inform you of things or to help you out with small things here and there.

    Now, in regards to Team Rocket HQ vs Distortion World, it doesn't really matter because either way you compare them, you're doing the majority of the legwork. You have to figure out Distortion World mostly alone in the same way you have to figure out Team Rocket HQ mostly alone. It's not like Lance follows you all around Rocket HQ and holds your hand (neither does Cynthia in Distortion World, if you're about to retort with that), he tells you what you need to know that's relevant to the situation (the same way Cynthia tells you what you need to know about what's relevant) and and he goes on his way.

    tl;dr: If we're comparing Distortion World vs Rocket HQ as far as overall champion guidance and helpfulness, they're just about equal. If we're counting overall contributions to the entire game, Cynthia easily makes more contributions and appearances than Lance does, and that's simply a fact, because Lance doesn't appear during the main storyline otherwise except to watch you fight the Red Gyarados, and Cynthia's "contributions" are moreso along the lines of providing you with backstories and explanations behind Pokemon. You may say that her contributions aren't grand in the entire scheme of things, and I would agree with you 100% on that, except I'd rather a champion that would appear many times so I can get to know her better as a character than a champion that appears only for a certain segment of the game and then only re-appears as champion.

    None of the things you listed is actually significant help. She never helps you fight the enemy, instead leaving it to you and Barry, which is ludicrous since, although she calls herself a "researcher", she's actually interested enough in battling that she's the Champion of the region.

    Mentor characters like Cynthia usually help you fight the enemy, of course they won't beat the enemy for you, but they'll help. The "classic" example is Obi-Wan Kenobi, who teaches Luke about the Force and later fights Darth Vader in the Death Star, which leads to his death. In Pokémon, both Lance and Steven help you against the evil teams. Some of the things Cynthia does, like giving you HMs, potion items and Pokémon, are unimportant enough that they could've done by different characters altogether.

    Also, it's not correct to say Lance "disappears" after you exit the Rocket Hideout. Much like how you learn stuff about Cynthia in Celestic Town, you also get a good deal of background info on Lance in the Dragon's Den when you take the Dragon Master test. HGSS added a bit to his development as a character.
     
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