Salamence—should it be tested?

[Ooka]

Sorry, just wanted to throw in that I see what Archer is say. He isn't saying that usage should play in at all, he's saying that if it's stats were that of something that could possibly be Uber, it would have been used more. He isn't saying anything about it needing to be Uber because a bunch of people used it at all, which is what it seems like you guys are interpreting it as.

And I agree, it's usage wasn't high, and like you guys said, that shouldn't factor into it being Uber, however, if it were a big enough threat to need to be banned from OU, more "expert" players would have used it, seeing as it would have been broken and a much easier win for them. So yeah, no usage has nothing to do with it, however, on the side, usage by "expert" players would prove that it's got the power to rip through teams, and seeing as it's not the top used Pokemon, and something that's clearly not Uber is, the Pokemon isn't in need of being tested. (Obviously I have a different point of standing than Archer, however, I'm pretty sure I got what he was trying to say).

 

[Anti]

Sorry, just wanted to throw in that I see what Archer is say. He isn't saying that usage should play in at all, he's saying that if it's stats were that of something that could possibly be Uber, it would have been used more. He isn't saying anything about it needing to be Uber because a bunch of people used it at all, which is what it seems like you guys are interpreting it as.

And I agree, it's usage wasn't high, and like you guys said, that shouldn't factor into it being Uber, however, if it were a big enough threat to need to be banned from OU, more "expert" players would have used it, seeing as it would have been broken and a much easier win for them. So yeah, no usage has nothing to do with it, however, on the side, usage by "expert" players would prove that it's got the power to rip through teams, and seeing as it's not the top used Pokemon, and something that's clearly not Uber is, the Pokemon isn't in need of being tested. (Obviously I have a different point of standing than Archer, however, I'm pretty sure I got what he was trying to say).

Nah that's pretty much what we were disagreeing with. The bolded part especially is really strange since you say that usage should have no effect but then you go on to conclude that because Salamence is behind a Pokemon that is not Uber, it should not be tested. Isn't that making usage have a direct effect on Salamence's fate? If Kyogre comes down from Ubers and takes the second slot in usage, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be Uber. It just means Scizor is useful to more teams. While this would never happen, this is indeed theoretical (and no, that doesn't invalidate it). My point is that "would you be saying the same thing if it was Kyogre in the number two slot" and the answer is no (unless you have a severe underestimating Kyogre disorder).

As for the part about expert players, I mentioned briefly in my essay of a post (and no I don't expect you to have read it lol) that expert players are in the minority on the ladder. Many expert players use semi-stall, which Salamence doesn't even fit with in most circumstances. Also, the metagame isn't just for expert players. That is why Electivire and Dusknoir are still safely OU. Keeping in mind that bad players have such an enormous effect on usage statistics, they should be disregarded for tier stuff (and they aren't necessarily indicative of a Pokemon's power anyway).

tl;dr: Usage should have no effect on a Pokemon being tested or not (or how someone votes should something be tested). There is a reason usage is not mentioned in any of the characteristics.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I dont understand how taking ~60% from Draco Meteor makes something fit the support characteristic though. I could say the same thing about Flygon or any dragon really, especially Dragonite who also do a heck of alot to steels with their high powered stab dragon moves. We just have to accept that dragons are just that powerful and the fact of the matter is that when something has 120-140 base power STAB move its going to hurt, even when its not a dragon move. You cant avoid it, even when its resisted a move with that high base power its gonna mess up your counter or check tbh (unless its Blissey). Ill give you an examples, see Choice Specs Overheat from Heatran Vs Swampert, it does up to 62%, basically ANYTHING with a high powered STAB move. (Yes i know Heatran is slow etc) but it can clear the way for say your Tar, Gyara heck anything to sweep depending on what nails on the switch in. Dragonite can do similar things.

Wouldnt Heatran/Dragonite based on the logic applied to mence i.e you need to play around it to win and this

Because you can't clear the way for other sweeps if you are just stopped by a common counter and forced out. Then your Pokemon has not accomplished anything. The fact that unless your opponent has Cresselia, a well-played Blissey, or a few others I'm sure I have forgotten about, they will risk losing an important Pokemon every time Salamence comes in because they are forced to outplay it.

Be said about almost anything with those said high powered moves ? (Though i disagree by forcing mence out it hasnt accomplished anything, yes it has its stopped you getting swept and forced mence to take 25% from Stealth Rock and they lose their advantage and it puts them on the back foot, though we will ignore that because its subjective with play style) You risk losing a pokemon to a well played anything in all honesty and a well played anything can open up sweeps. Now i know the other pokemon i mentioned (Dragonite and Heatran) have other problems but if they get in you still risk losing something and that is what im trying to get at.

Im not trying to argue with you per se its just my main problem well to be blunt is the characteristics, they are bad. Not bad "lol no logic" bad, but because they dont define;

- A. What a "common battle situation" is to be agreed on by EVERYONE.
- B. Are WAY too broad and can be applied to ANYTHING as shown in my zard thread. Yeah i know it was a joke thread but they still give you a case to make a claim for anything is suspect.


Salamence wasnt "suspect" before platinum fact so id say its the dragon move that need testing and not Mence. More specifically Outrage. Even Phillip says this;

With the release of Platinum came a brand new toy for Salamence to play with: Outrage

 

[Malicious Metang]

The first serious argument against the test is that everything (or most everything, aka the damage calculations) is theorymon...just look at D_A's signature/practically all of Vance's post. Really, all damage calculations do is demonstrate something's power. With both the support and offensive characteristics, the amount of damage Salamence does is directly related to how it fits or does not fit one or both of the characteristics. In order to sweep a significant portion of the metagame with little effort, you have to do a lot of damage. How the damage calculations that show how much damage Salamence does is theorymon is beyond me.

You obviously misinterpreted me, as it's quite obvious damage calculations are not full theorymon. I didn't even say damage calculations are theorymon, if you read:

Basically, as long as people resort to damage calculations and "what if" situations, which are by the way cleverly disguised theorymon, we will never be able to prove Pokemon are not broken by ACTUALLY PLAYING POKEMON.

I was referring to the "what if" situations more than the damage calculations, but yeah, people justify their posts with damage calculations much too much to be honest.

In reality, most people (Smogoners included) really on damage calculations to back up their theorymon induced situations, saying that because Salamence 2HKOs X Wall, then that it will always be able to be X Wall, despite the fact that it can be played around (ie. Blissey not coming in on Brick Break/Outrage, and rather coming in on a special move or Roost, then paralyzing Mence and stalling it out). You could say such a situations such as this is also theorymon, however, considering how MixMence relies on Draco Meteor to do most of its damage, its more obvious for Blissey to come in on Draco.

After all, if Scizor comes in on a Draco Meteor, will it not do 49%58% damage? I mean, I know D_A has cited that as his way of beating New MixMence, so if he does that in actual battles, that certainly can't be theorymon.

It's not theorymon, no one said it was, but what people do is take the fact that Draco Meteor does a lot and directly interlocks it with "Salamence can beat Scizor over two switch-ins" and "Scizor is not an answer to Mence". You may find it ridiculous, but I've seen quite a few of these statements, such as "Scizor can't stop Salamence because Salamence deals 50% with Draco Meteor!"

Of course, they can't be the only argument since damage calculations are just facts and evidence.

Obviously.

 

[Anti]

Alrighty, glad to see you guys interpreted my argument as I had intended it to be interpreted! So let's get the ball rolling once more (hopefully with a less tl;dr type atmosphere haha).

@D_A: Lots to cover, lol.

First, the idea that anything with a strong STAB move fits the support characteristic under my logic...well, I think you know that isn't true lol. The difference between Draco, Leaf Storm, and Overheat is simple and obvious: the type. Dragon is only resisted by one type. Fire is resisted by Waters, Dragons, other Fire-types, and Rock-types. Just look at the common OU Pokemon that resist it - Tyranitar, Suicune, Gyarados, Vaporeon, Salamence, Heatran (immune), Snorlax (Thick Fat, though he isn't too common anymore), Latias, Kingdra, Swampert...all of these Pokemon can take these attacks at least to some extent. Some of them take a ton of damage (see: Salamence), but a lot of Pokemon can take an Overheat from Specs Heatran. Heatran also does not have the benefit of a lot of Speed or the freedom to switch attacks, so it has trouble with anything faster with a recovery move or anything that can take its attack twice (the second one being weakened) that can then recover its health. SpecsTran also does not pose any threat at all to Blissey, which cannot be said about Salamence since Outrage is a 2HKO, and thus it can be risky to bring Blissey in (though as I mentioned, not to a great extent if it's on a stall team). Leaf Storm is basically a worse version of Overheat used primarily by Pokemon not as good as Heatran and certainly not Salamence. In other words, there is a difference for two main reasons: Salamence is a better user of its respective high-powered attack, and its type is far superior to Fire or Grass. On this first point especially I would like to emphasize that every other user of a high-powered attack has a reasonable amount of counters and checks, while Salamence does not. This certainly sets Salamence apart considerably. As for Dragonite, it is a slow Pokemon that locks itself into Outrage in order to be uncounterable. It does not have the freedom to switch attacks or switch out like Salamence has after using Draco Meteor. There's a reason no one uses CB Dragonite.

Now i know the other pokemon i mentioned (Dragonite and Heatran) have other problems but if they get in you still risk losing something and that is what im trying to get at.

All of them have counters/are easily disposed of if they use a move with any kind of power. CB Dragonite is never used much for a good reason--it relies on Outrage to be uncounterable, which is essentially a death sentence whether it gets a kill or not. And its Speed DOES have an impact on its ability to impose risk on an opponent since it can't set up on as many things.

And no, Scizor taking 60% from DM isn't fitting the support characteristic, but you literally picked the example I used in saying that Salamence almost never has that little of an impact. As I mentioned, you're more skilled than the players you play against who use MixMence. Just like how I am more skilled than most of the players I fought when I used MixMence against others. And of course, 60% to Scizor happens over the course of one time Salamence is in only, and usually I almost never got less than two chances to unleash it. I won't disagree with your statement but it sure is mighty misleading/not really relevant, lol.

The characteristics, while I disagree with you extremely on them for very simple reasons I'll outline on the server, I will not mention them beyond this "paragraph" since their effectiveness or lack thereof is not relevant to whether or not Salamence should be tested or not. You could make a discussion thread on it though Ginger.

Also, before I counter that very last point (which I think is your best, so I will naturally keep you waiting <3), I just wanted to point out how humorous it is to me that most of your arguments apply to Pokemon in the Uber tier already like Shaymin-S and Rayquaza. Since Skymin still has pro-OU sentiment I'll move right to Rayquaza. You can "outplay" any version of Rayquaza, it gets its ass kicked by residual damage, and it has a handy weakness to Steel-typed revenge killers. Since these are the main "proven" ways of beating Salamence I am aware of, their relevance to Rayquaza makes me chuckle. Yes yes I know that "Rayquaza is way more powerful" but that doesn't significantly damage either argument. After all, you can switch Scizor into a Rayray Draco, take a bit more damage but still live, and now it's in a tough situation! onoes! If Rayray DDes and you bring in ScarfGar on it well it's going to have to switch out and then take SR damage again! onoes! I could easily make my own satirical thread for Rayquaza becoming OU so I mean...yeah lol. Just some food for thought =3.

Lastly, the fact that I don't really mention Outrage in my reason for a test of Mence despite that being what inspired it in the first place. This is a good point, but I will explain why Outrage is a major contributing factor. First of all, it made the DD set what it is, which means that more often than you'd think, people will switch a DDMence counter (like Porygon2) into Draco Meteor and just get creamed, lol. Outrage also helps as a late-game sweeping move, which can sometimes be helpful. As for my other main point, which is that while MixMence does not actually use Outrage much, the very threat of it is enough to have an impact, especially on how gutsy Blissey is to switch in. It also makes for easy kills on Latias that thinks it can come in when you're at -2 and it gets creamed yet again. It's nothing overwhelming, and indeed, many of the things I argue can be said for other Pokemon. However, The set simply would not be as good without Outrage. what Outrage does is it allows Salamence to support itself in a sweep since it can now pose that threat, though it's usually temporary since LO recoil and the fact that Outrage confuses do tend to hurt its longevity. However, I can't seriously argue against this point, and along with stall teams is definitely something I'll have to keep in mind as I somewhat reluctantly support a Salamence test.

@Cute Cutegross

Not much to really disagree with, but I tried (and likely failed) to say that "what if" situations can be valid...obviously not the ones you posted, so no disagreement there, but stuff like "what if Scizor switches into Draco Meteor" and we have ourselves a ballgame. Though I don't know if that's really what you mean by a what-if situation. I'm not going to speak for the Smogoners who made those arguments though since they should be speaking for themselves (and their arguments should be speaking for themselves as well).


Hopefully that about covers it, haha.

 

[Archer]

Okay. Metang, you're completely right about the usage point. I originally made the point just to add potential information to the topic, despite the fact that it contradicted my personal opinion on the matter - and then proceeded to try to back it up. Consider those points null and void. Also, the poorly though out section of my post drew the attention away from the (IMO) more important section, which is essentially reiterated in the following paragraph:

I still think it wouldn't hurt to carry out the test. It's hardly an eviction notice, but it will allow us to establish the general consensus according to the better players, and make a decision, rather than constantly doing battle between theorymon and logic. (That's not to say they're necessarily opposites, although in many cases, people seem to use theorymon as a tool to defy logic :D) The fact that we are even debating this means that it is, to some extent, close enough to the Uber Criteria to be considered.

As much as taking action upon the moves Outrage and Draco Meteor themselves may be convenient in neutering Salamence, it creates other issues by killing off Kingdra and Flygon completely. If it's not a double standard enough to be removing certain moves which are only banned due to the pokemon that have access to them, only removing them from Salamence, Garchomp, Lati@s, etc is even worse. It seems to undo the problem, but it only creates more.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Also, before I counter that very last point (which I think is your best, so I will naturally keep you waiting <3), I just wanted to point out how humorous it is to me that most of your arguments apply to Pokemon in the Uber tier already like Shaymin-S and Rayquaza. Since Skymin still has pro-OU sentiment I'll move right to Rayquaza. You can "outplay" any version of Rayquaza, it gets its ass kicked by residual damage, and it has a handy weakness to Steel-typed revenge killers. Since these are the main "proven" ways of beating Salamence I am aware of, their relevance to Rayquaza makes me chuckle. Yes yes I know that "Rayquaza is way more powerful" but that doesn't significantly damage either argument. After all, you can switch Scizor into a Rayray Draco, take a bit more damage but still live, and now it's in a tough situation! onoes! If Rayray DDes and you bring in ScarfGar on it well it's going to have to switch out and then take SR damage again! onoes! I could easily make my own satirical thread for Rayquaza becoming OU so I mean...yeah lol. Just some food for thought =3.

Firstly i want to say this, -Def nature Rayquaza takes HITS BETTER than Neutral nature Salamence. This is HUGE when checking/revenge killing it.

Lets use Scizor as a blind example.

58% - 68.2% + 12% from SR + 16% - 19% From Extremespeed = 92% on average is what CB Scizor take just switching in on Draco + ES from Mixquaza. Meaning if Draco + ES roll max damage your Scizor takes 100%.

CB BP vs -nature 0/0 Ray 55.8% - 66.1% even with SR up, so it lives even with SR up and one turn of LO recoil nearly all of the time.

49.3% - 58.3% <--New Mixmence Draco Vs CB Scizor.

58.9% - 69.2% <-- CB Bullet Punch Vs neutral Nature Mence. Its dead after 1 turn of life orb most/alot of the time with SR up.

Ray also gets Swords Dance. That is massive as it lets it kill pretty much everything (heck you dont even need Outrage because its that damn powerful), not even the bulkiest of steels like taking hits from that. It also has Air Lock which lols at Sandstorm, something which Mence doesnt have, again a large factor.

ES also poops all over frail revenge killers which dont resist it.

Dont get me wrong i do get your point and where you are coming from, but there are certain aspects that REALLY help Ray distinguish its uber qualities over mence. Infact all ubers do have something to CLEARLY define their uber characteristics, Mence does not.

As much as taking action upon the moves Outrage and Draco Meteor themselves may be convenient in neutering Salamence, it creates other issues by killing off Kingdra and Flygon completely. If it's not a double standard enough to be removing certain moves which are only banned due to the pokemon that have access to them, only removing them from Salamence, Garchomp, Lati@s, etc is even worse. It seems to undo the problem, but it only creates more.

Well to be fair Garchomp/Latios have uber qualities without Outrage and Draco. I.e Garchomp can still sweep thanks to dragon claw, sd, sandveil, yache, haban on its standard set. Latios has Dual Screen and Memento.

Not to repeat myself but "Salamence was not suspect before it had Outrage". So i really dont see how adding something like;

Salamence Outrage and/Or Draco Clause

The above moves will be banned on the suspect/standard ladder on mence.

Will create problems, its simple coding and is pretty easy to add and test.

It also sticks with what smogon is trying to accomplish "Have a balanced metagame where as MANY possible pokemon as possible are viable" fair enough if the actual pokemon itself is broken like Deoxys or Shaymin because of their vast movepools and ability to do anything and has too many combinations of those and its speed or just their ability + speed + sub seeding respectively, but when its just Outrage (which to be fair on Mence its Outrage, because again no one was complaining before it got it). Testing something JUST because of a move seems to contradict the underlined.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Anti]

Before I address Rayquaza, I just want to say that I think you know as well as I do that banning one move on a Pokemon is completely unrealistic. You can ban Dragon or Water moves altogether on Palkia and you'll notice that it's not very good anymore lol. You could literally every Pokemon in the Uber tier down by banning certain moves, even Mew. "Outrage/Draco Meteor Clause" is like, the definition of a slippery slope. And I know you claimed otherwise, but is it really that hard to ban Baton Pass on Mew (or whatever else it is mainly used for, as I'm not familiar with the Uber tier at all) or Seed Flare and Leech Seed on Skymin? Swords Dance on Garchomp? Outrage and Draco on Rayquaza? Not to mention what moves to ban and what ones not to...it becomes a total pain. Then you can apply that to UU as well. Staraptor =/= broken when Brave Bird can't be used, lol. Ban Seed Flare from Shaymin. Totally impossible and unworkable solution at this point imo...

As for Rayquaza, you appear to have missed the point. Before I get to my main point I will counter specific points in your post. First of all, Scizor is a mighty convenient blind example seeing as every other Mence/Rayray revenge killer OHKOes both of them with a Scarfed Ice move. I get that Extremespeed is there and everything but you either have to drop Earthquake, Brick Break, Outrage, or Roost (depending on what MixMence you're emulating), which either hurts its coverage, sweeping/stall breaking ability, or longevity. Since Roost probably isn't going to make it on the same set as Extremespeed Mixed Rayray, "WOMG RESIDUAL DAMAGE" sure does come into effect, doesn't it? This goes back to the main point of me posting that (which I know you are aware of but I do this for emphasis)--that same argument against Salamence can be successfully applied to Rayquaza.

You didn't address "outplay it" besides the potential for different sets, so I'll mention that too. First of all, Salamence has its own killer DD set, and indeed, if you switch your Blissey or Metagross (or even Scizor) in to take Draco Meteor from Salamence OR Rayquaza and it uses Dragon Dance, you could very well be in huge trouble...unless you outplay it, of course! And yes, that is possible as I'm sure you're aware of, lol. Also, Extremespeed doesn't exactly have ideal coverage: Gengar, Scarf Rotom-F (or any Rotom-A with HP Ice), CB Scizor (to some extent), Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Metagross, Weavile, and ScarfTran all work as revenge killers, and I think we all know how common a lot of these are! And for those that aren't, I would like to remind you of your "just adapt" slogan...and since none of those Pokemon aren't bad to the point of not being viable (yeah I know Weavile is pretty bad, lol!) I don't see how that isn't a valid way of looking at things.

So yeah, you can outplay Rayquaza and it loses to residual damage...is there something I am missing? I don't want to turn this thread into "Free Rayquaza" (though most of the other points have been discussed) but I don't see how your arguments don't apply to it as well. Yeah "Rayquaza has a better movepool and is more powerful," but ironically enough, whenever Salamence's power or movepool has been brought up, it's been dismissed as "just random statistics" or "theorymon" lol. I think what Rayquaza does is that it proves that such statements or criticisms are simply not valid or are just argument-specific (AKA not important).

But yes, it seems like a double standard to me. Indeed, I could go to UU and find that Salamence is analogous to Staraptor in a lot of ways...easy to revenge kill or outplay (certainly that last part since it was often CBed lol), gets crushed by residual damage...yet it was voted Uber 18-1 lol. Being SR weak and being "easy" to outplay is true of basically every SR weak Pokemon in the game...at the very least a Salamence test is reasonable. OUtside of time restraints, I don't quite understand the often-irrational outrage against the test on PC...it's not going to kill anyone, and there is reasonable suspicion whether you agree with it or not. Is Salamence is "just another OU" like some have claimed, a test will put the issue to rest. And really, not that the cat has been let out of the bag, I think the issue does need to be put to rest with a test--one with Salamence removed from the metagame on a suspect ladder.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Before I address Rayquaza, I just want to say that I think you know as well as I do that banning one move on a Pokemon is completely unrealistic. You can ban Dragon or Water moves altogether on Palkia and you'll notice that it's not very good anymore lol. You could literally every Pokemon in the Uber tier down by banning certain moves, even Mew. "Outrage/Draco Meteor Clause" is like, the definition of a slippery slope. And I know you claimed otherwise, but is it really that hard to ban Baton Pass on Mew (or whatever else it is mainly used for, as I'm not familiar with the Uber tier at all) or Seed Flare and Leech Seed on Skymin? Swords Dance on Garchomp? Outrage and Draco on Rayquaza? Not to mention what moves to ban and what ones not to...it becomes a total pain. Then you can apply that to UU as well. Staraptor =/= broken when Brave Bird can't be used, lol. Ban Seed Flare from Shaymin. Totally impossible and unworkable solution at this point imo...

Nono you missed my point here which was "Mence wasnt suspect before platinum and Outrage, so its obviously just Outrage that has made it broken"

As for Rayquaza, you appear to have missed the point. Before I get to my main point I will counter specific points in your post. First of all, Scizor is a mighty convenient blind example seeing as every other Mence/Rayray revenge killer OHKOes both of them with a Scarfed Ice move. I get that Extremespeed is there and everything but you either have to drop Earthquake, Brick Break, Outrage, or Roost (depending on what MixMence you're emulating), which either hurts its coverage, sweeping/stall breaking ability, or longevity. Since Roost probably isn't going to make it on the same set as Extremespeed Mixed Rayray, "WOMG RESIDUAL DAMAGE" sure does come into effect, doesn't it? This goes back to the main point of me posting that (which I know you are aware of but I do this for emphasis)--that same argument against Salamence can be successfully applied to Rayquaza.

Not really, because you ignored how much better Ray takes hits than Mence. Even - Def nature mence take hits better than neutral mence. The reason i used Scizor as an example because its the #1 used poke and SR + BP = dead mence whilst SR + BP = non dead -def nature ray. The bulk makes it THAT much harder to revenge kill and check and even wall.

Ray also has Air Lock so other residual damage besides sr is moot being that it totally stops SS/Hail w/e.

You didn't address "outplay it" besides the potential for different sets, so I'll mention that too. First of all, Salamence has its own killer DD set, and indeed, if you switch your Blissey or Metagross (or even Scizor) in to take Draco Meteor from Salamence OR Rayquaza and it uses Dragon Dance, you could very well be in huge trouble...unless you outplay it, of course! And yes, that is possible as I'm sure you're aware of, lol. Also, Extremespeed doesn't exactly have ideal coverage: Gengar, Scarf Rotom-F (or any Rotom-A with HP Ice), CB Scizor (to some extent), Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Metagross, Weavile, and ScarfTran all work as revenge killers, and I think we all know how common a lot of these are! And for those that aren't, I would like to remind you of your "just adapt" slogan...and since none of those Pokemon aren't bad to the point of not being viable (yeah I know Weavile is pretty bad, lol!) I don't see how that isn't a valid way of looking at things.

Scarf HP Ice Rotom is a joke and so is Scarf Gar and no one really uses them. Neither are checks, just really bad revenge killers who's only purpose is to get Pursuited.

| Rotom-h | Move | Other (6) | < 5.5 |

Backs me up.

No one uses Scarf Meta.

Weavile loses to DD ES. (ES is in 84% of Rays)

So only Scarf Jirachi and Scarf Tran are really any good/viable out of that list. If the others were more viable, well then simply people would use them more. Until then i refuse to accept bad pursuit weak revenge killers who arent checks as ways to deal with ray. As said the only good ones are Scarf Tar and Scarf Rachi, 2 viable checks and one loses to DD Ray sooo.

So if mence really IS that broken as people say, where is the fall in stall (because it apparently kills everything on stall)? The massive surge in Weavile/Mamo/Zong/Cress usage ? The Scarfgar/Scarf HP ice Rotom on every team ?

Fact is people HAVE adapted to mence, as shown by the metagame and dont need all that stupid stuff to deal with it and CAN outplay it. For example i watched some top 10/20 ladder players ladder. For example M-Dragon's team is Taunt SR Tran/Scizor/Celebi/Vappy/Anti Stall Gliscor/Latias. He didnt lose to a well played mence a single time (despite Vappy, Tran, Celebi and Gliscor being Mence set up bait) and well played i mean predicted his switches and the most it did do his team in like the 10 matches i watched him in was ko a vappy and that is because he foddered it at like 12% health lol. That is what i mean by adapting and no going out of your way to use bad non-viable scarfers/pokemon etc. And yes you can outplay Ray, no one is questioning that but you have to go out of your way to do it for Ray as shown by the bad pokemon/pursuit bait stupid stuff, good players dont for Mence, simple. That is what i mean by adapt. Latias + Scizor is sufficient Mence coverage for a team, both lose to Ray with SR up after D-Meteor or D-Meteor + ES respectively. See ? Whilst combined they check mence well because it forces the mence user to predict which takes skill. If something takes skill then it isnt broken.

Also the fact that you are trying to compare something with 150/150 attacking stats, Swords Dance, Extremespeed, Air Lock, everything in Mences movepool + more and bulkier even with - def natures, to said mence is kinda umm. Yes i know there is similar arguments for each but still.



But yes, it seems like a double standard to me. Indeed, I could go to UU and find that Salamence is analogous to Staraptor in a lot of ways...easy to revenge kill or outplay (certainly that last part since it was often CBed lol), gets crushed by residual damage...yet it was voted Uber 18-1 lol. Being SR weak and being "easy" to outplay is true of basically every SR weak Pokemon in the game...at the very least a Salamence test is reasonable. OUtside of time restraints, I don't quite understand the often-irrational outrage against the test on PC...it's not going to kill anyone, and there is reasonable suspicion whether you agree with it or not. Is Salamence is "just another OU" like some have claimed, a test will put the issue to rest. And really, not that the cat has been let out of the bag, I think the issue does need to be put to rest with a test--one with Salamence removed from the metagame on a suspect ladder.

The uu metagame was very young then and Staraptor never got retested in a Rhyperior/Raikou etc metagame and i didnt play UU at the beginning so i dont have a comment on that.

But yes i dont have a problem with the mence test either way.

 

[Malicious Metang]

Sure, we have calculated a numerous amount of figures but if there were snippets from battles of what it's capable of doing outside of OU it would be much better. For now, yeah, why not give it a test but I can't see why Mence is suspect. Maybe we should just give Swampert a test too.

It's posts like these that differentiate the good "Anti-Mence test" users, and the bad "Anti-Mence test" users.

 

[Skip Shot]

D_A brought up one point that I think I failed to mention in my arguments. When suspect testing other Pokemon, it was mainly because there was an overcentralization of the Pokemon in the metagame. Garchomp could be used as an example here, since every single team had at least one of the very few answers to Garchomp- Scarfed Ice Beam, Ice Shard, etc. Shadow Claw became extremely common on Ambipom solely because of the Froslass Spiker lead that set up Spikes on or defeated mostly every other common UU lead. With Salamence, I have not seen the overcentraliztion that other suspects in metagames have had. As D_A said, Salamence can be outplayed in battle and worked around, which to me makes it not meet the criteria to be a suspect.

 

[wolf]

D_A brought up one point that I think I failed to mention in my arguments. When suspect testing other Pokemon, it was mainly because there was an overcentralization of the Pokemon in the metagame. Garchomp could be used as an example here, since every single team had at least one of the very few answers to Garchomp- Scarfed Ice Beam, Ice Shard, etc. Shadow Claw became extremely common on Ambipom solely because of the Froslass Spiker lead that set up Spikes on or defeated mostly every other common UU lead. With Salamence, I have not seen the overcentraliztion that other suspects in metagames have had. As D_A said, Salamence can be outplayed in battle and worked around, which to me makes it not meet the criteria to be a suspect.

Isn't that adapting, and not overcentralization? I always considered overcentralization when people use Pokemon Y to counter Pokemon X, but Pokemon Y is only viable because it counters Pokemon X. i.e. Cloyster is used for Garchomp, when Cloyter is a pretty mediocre Pokemon to use in OU otherwise. Overcentralization can also be when an already viable Pokemon has to pack a certain move to counter Pokemon X, but when this is done it fails to fulfill its main role of the team.

Where as, some Pokemon can simply fit Ice Beam to check Garchomp without falling short of what it's meant to accomplish. I consider that more of adapting to the current threats and not overcentralizing.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[Skip Shot]

Isn't that adapting, and not overcentralization? I always considered overcentralization when people use Pokemon Y to counter Pokemon X, but Pokemon Y is only viable because it counters Pokemon X. i.e. Cloyster is used for Garchomp, when Cloyter is a pretty mediocre Pokemon to use in OU otherwise. Overcentralization can also be when an already viable Pokemon has to pack a certain move to counter Pokemon X, but when this is done it fails to fulfill its main role of the team.

Where as, some Pokemon can simply fit Ice Beam to check Garchomp without falling short of what it's meant to accomplish. I consider that more of adapting to the current threats and not overcentralizing.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

People did have to adapt to be able to outplay Salamence, yes. What I was trying to get at is that the Pokemon that were overcentralized couldn't be adapted to (at least not even close to as well as the metagame has adapted to Mence) which is why they were tested.

 

[Dark Azelf]

People did have to adapt to be able to outplay Salamence, yes. What I was trying to get at is that the Pokemon that were overcentralized couldn't be adapted to (at least not even close to as well as the metagame has adapted to Mence) which is why they were tested.

Thats actually a fair point, during early suspect the only reason people used Sp.Def Skarmory initially was to check Latios and Skymin.

I dont see any over specific sets around like this around just to beat mence.

 

[Anti]

D_A brought up one point that I think I failed to mention in my arguments. When suspect testing other Pokemon, it was mainly because there was an overcentralization of the Pokemon in the metagame. Garchomp could be used as an example here, since every single team had at least one of the very few answers to Garchomp- Scarfed Ice Beam, Ice Shard, etc. Shadow Claw became extremely common on Ambipom solely because of the Froslass Spiker lead that set up Spikes on or defeated mostly every other common UU lead. With Salamence, I have not seen the overcentraliztion that other suspects in metagames have had. As D_A said, Salamence can be outplayed in battle and worked around, which to me makes it not meet the criteria to be a suspect.

"Overcentralization" is the most ancient term in the suspect test of this generation really, and there is a good reason it is never brought up anymore. However, it's funny you mention it, since the only way to get a "sense" of the degree of centralization a Pokemon causes (however one wishes to define that) is with a test. While it's impossible to know for sure--this is why it's almost silly to bring up overcentralization since it will always be completely subjective and of little use--a test certainly gives us a better idea of Salamence's impact on the metagame, and indeed, how good it is.

But as for centralization, Ambipom using Shadow Claw to beat Froslass is like, the most mild example of centralization ever. SpecsMence using Hydro Pump to beat Heatran back in the day was also centralizing. It's just not significant. Just like specially defensive Skarmory isn't significant to Shaymin-S and Latios. This isn't a Cresselia instance with something like Garchomp where it's only there to beat Garchomp and serves no other practical purpose. That Skarm is basically standard Skarm--arguably the best Spieks supporter in the game--with a different EV spread to deal with more prominent threats. MixMence started running 40 more Speed EVs when SDLuke became popular. Blissey even ran Calm (and still does) to adapt to more powerful threats...and I realize that it's unnecessary, but it was not believed to be at the time and since most Blisseys run Calm still I think it's a valid enough example. Tyranitar began running Babiri Berry and Fire Punch to beat Scizor. But no, SDef Skarm is not overly specific. You know that. It is still a fantastic team supporter with even defenses and wonderful typing. Let's not get carried away. But no. I did not see any sets designed just to beat the other suspects with the exception of Garchomp, yet they are Uber. However, when this doesn't happen with Salamence, it doesn't even deserve a test?

I just want to conclude with the fact that centralization/overcentralization is not mentioned and indeed cannot even be connected to the characteristics logically. Also, for how much the metagame has "adapted" to Salamence, supposedly ideal situations like Scizor coming in on MixMence to scare it out sure are...um...extremely risky? I know you and D_A are the two people who don't like the characteristics, but that's what this is based on whether you like it or not. Of course, I think you are going more with centralization being symptomatic of a potential Uber, but I don't really think there is a more centralizing force in OU (for whatever that's worth since, again, any measurement of centralization is arbitrary!), so I don't see why everyone is so rigidly against a test. A test can only shed more light on this. Especially since "outplay it" is still the underlying logic here and I still have no idea how being able to "outplay" the most potent offensive force in OU and essentially losing a Pokemon if you mispredict someone means it is not worthy of a test.

As for Rayray, I'll make it as brief as possible.

I didn't ignore Ray's extra bulk...I directly countered that point lol =/ But to reiterate, Intimidate gives Salamence more leverage switching in on things, and Scizor is literally the only revenge killer for Mence/Rayray that is affected by the extra bulk of Rayquaza. Everything else carries an Ice attack anyway. And I really think you're overstating its bulk, especially when SR and LO recoil really reduce its effects anyway.

Air Lock isn't really relevant to your own argument though. You've basically been arguing that Salamence dies after coming in two times because of SR, LO recoil, and a potential revenge killer (which, you have argued, could even reduce its impact to being in once and then not living past that). SS doesn't really make a difference in that regard. Pardon me if I'm misrepresenting your argument but that sure is what it seems like.

And yes I realize no one uses Scarf Metagross. But you champion "just adapt" so much that wouldn't a rise in Metagross usage just be backing that up? It's not like Scarf Meta doesn't have other uses--beating SDLuke, DDTar, and Latias especially.

As for the "Pursuit bait," you really can call half of the metagame Pursuit bait. But if you want to play that game, your beloved Salamence "check" Scizor sure is Magnezone bait, isn't it? Gee, guess we can't count that because it can be trapped and killed. So can Scarf Jirachi. The fact is, Choice Scarf Rotom-A is fairly popular and replacing Trick or Overheat for HP Ice isn't going to kill anyone. Just because you think something is bad (and in Scarf Rotom-A's case I actually agree with you) doesn't mean it should be discounted since it IS a popular set and using HP Ice is "just adapting," is it not?

Brief note on Staraptor: Raikou was in the metagame when Staraptor was. They were both banned at the same time. [/nitpick]

Also, despite people not having to use Pursuit bait to beat Salamence, isn't that exactly what Latias is lol? Not to mention that Latias dies to half of Salamence's set (MixMence) so you're basically doing yourself in. Also, people use Scarf Latias to deal with Salamence. People used to use ScarfGar all the time (before the Scizor era of Plat) to deal with various threats. It's not like "Pursuit bait" is reserved for broken Pokemon only and everything else gets the "good" Choice Scarfers/revenge killers.

And given your logic my Rayquaza vs. Salamence comparison is valid. I just took "residual damage >>> salamence" and "being smarter >>> salamence" and applied them to Rayquaza. Those can't be enough to prove Salamence not Uber let alone deny it a harmless test if they can be successfully applied to Rayquaza who is clearly Uber. What makes Rayquaza different from Salamence is not its "extra bulk" (which as I already mentioned makes almost no difference outside of Scizor) or Air Lock (which I also covered) but instead its enormous power. That's been the point of my Rayquaza comparison. Extending on that, I believe that Salamence's power, while certainly not that of Rayquaza's, is enough to warrant a test. Especially when the only way to truly beat it unless you're running a well-built stall team (that last part being why I don't think Salamence is Uber!) is to "outplay it," and I covered that reasoning pretty well in the original tl;dr post I made in this thread. I don't recall my points ever being truly countered, though I might be wrong/I don't feel like digging through our posts to see.

So yeah hope this makes sense since I'm tired and probably just wrote a bunch of slop lol.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Ill answer the rest of it later, but i do agree with most however;

Id just like to address the Air Lock and why its significant to Salamence, because according to the smogon thread Tyranitar is the 3rd most used partner/team mate(lol dumb ladder players) to Salamence so that is why i feel that SS IS factor in my argument with Ray. With SS + SR active Salamence loses 41% of its health from just switching in and attacking with a Life Orb, though i should of been more clear about this part lol.

Also;

As for the "Pursuit bait," you really can call half of the metagame Pursuit bait. But if you want to play that game, your beloved Salamence "check" Scizor sure is Magnezone bait, isn't it? Gee, guess we can't count that because it can be trapped and killed. So can Scarf Jirachi.

Problem is based on this its not Mence thats the problem but Magnezone/Pursuit users because they fits the support characteristics.

 

[Anti]

Ill answer the rest of it later, but i do agree with most however;

Id just like to address the Air Lock and why its significant to Salamence, because according to the smogon thread Tyranitar is the 3rd most used partner/team mate(lol dumb ladder players) to Salamence so that is why i feel that SS IS factor in my argument with Ray. With SS + SR active Salamence loses 41% of its health from just switching in and attacking with a Life Orb, though i should of been more clear about this part lol.

Problem is based on this its not Mence thats the problem but Magnezone/Pursuit users because they fits the support characteristics.

Well like you said, there are dumb ladder players, and we are supposed to assume that everything is being used to maximize its potential. I mean, Rayquaza takes 35% damage, so I really don't think it's a huge difference just from personal experience. The only time SS has been really bothersome is when my opponent has failed to lay down Stealth Rock and it cuts Mence's longevity in a much more significant way.

And I don't see how you can come to that conclusion from what I've said regarding Pursuit users and Magnezone. My point was that if you say things don't count as revenge killers/checks/counters or whatever you want to call them, a really good portion of the metagame will simply be excluded. I know we both hate things like Scarf Latias and Scarf Rotom-A, but the truth is that a lot of people like them and they are a part of the metagame. People who rely too much on things that are vulnerable to being trapped are either stupid or taking a calculated risk. Most of what beats Salamence is in danger of being Pursuited or trapped by Magnezone, but they count as things that can beat it. If we are making a comparison with Rayquaza, it is unfair to hold its counters/checks/whatever by a different standard for no real reason. You have to take its counters/checks/etc. at face value...if you don't, the nature of the test changes a lot for the worse since you are excluding some of the most prominent Pokemon in the metagame like CB Scizor, Scarf Rotom-A, and Scarf Jirachi.