Scald - only for smogon tier users

[srinator]

sup so this thread came up for discussion on the battle server today, +500 respect to the op
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scald.3541817/

Anyway what are your thoughts about this move? Do you think it is broken enough to justify a ban? How do u think its ban would affect certain mons?

Also since I can clearly see this coming, moves like lava plume or discharge aren't broken like scald because of scalds distribution and spamability.

So yeah don't turn this is into aaaaaaaa swagon! But I would love to see some actual discussion
Shoot-

 

[Anti]

not going to repeat arguments i've made in the past (i'll dig them up and link to them tomorrow) but this move really brings an imbalance to the game. water is a better offensive type than electric (discharge) and normal (body slam) to say the least, and lava plume can be counterplayed with fire-types and has far smaller distribution. water being a better *defensive* type is just as important since bulky waters (and even offensive ones like keld) get more opportunities to spam it than, say, a discharge thundurus or raikou would.

i think of it a lot like swagger. why would anyone want to keep this move around? don't want to get into burden of proof fallacy territory, but there are plenty of convincing arguments out there. just so this thread isn't a complete scald sucks symphony, i'm curious if anyone has seen a particularly good defense of the move?

 

[Zeffy]

Scald is just... horrible. If it had the same distribution as Lava Plume then it might have been more tolerable. It gives the player an out from already lost scenarios, which basically puts the whole game down to luck.

As for positive effects of Scald... I guess it gives defensive teams a spammable offensive move??

 

[srinator]

>see amomola using something besides mirror coat
In fact I would argue that most defensive water mons with bad special attack are still salvaged because of scald and its burn rate.
That could be something as a positive ~_~

 

[Hikamaru]

As Sri said, some Water-types that have weak offensive output and are mainly used defensively can still make good use of Scald since the burn can really help with breaking down the opponent over time.

 

[Sirfetch’d]

Things can switch into Lava Plume a lot more easily too imo and as everyone has already said the distribution is so low that it's not something that is an issue. Scald is on so many relevant threats which is such an annoyance. Let's look at some common threats that run scald: Keldeo, Manaphy, Slowbro, Starmie, Slowking, Suicune, and some lower key mons such as Milotic and Alomamola. Whereas Lava Plume, it's fiery counterpart, and Discharge are only used by a couple of Pokemon such as Tran and Zapdos. The distribution of this move is entirely too high and when teambuilding you have to take into account "oh what can I switch into a Scald" because your opponent will have something running it. This restricts your teambuilding options way too much. There are very few things that can safely switch into Scald except shit mons such as Gastrodon whereas Heatran can safely switch into Lava Plume, Thundy-t and Mega Sceptile can safely switch into a Discharge. I do think it's an extremely cancerous when you have to prepare for a move as opposed to individual threatening Pokemon. So yes Scald is indeed broken.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

scald shouldn't be banned. i don't think they should try THAT hard to minimize luck from this game. it isn't as bad as swagger, shadow tag or geopass.

by this logic we may as well ban sacred fire cuz it has a 50% (well, 47,5%) chance to burn, i know entei is the only user of it but back in dpp and maybe even bw idk what kept them from testing Ho-Oh - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ho-oh-%E2%80%93-is-it-truly-an-uber.46794/ .i mean if for example i have a hippo and his CB Entei scores the burn, i now can't wall stuff reliably unless heal bell comes into play. even bulky waters can't wall stuff that reliably while taking 12% damage per turn (or 6% with lefties). and what about seed flare? shaymin runs Rest, Seed Flare, Earth Power, and one HP of choice (rock, fire or ice) in OU IIRC. So if I have a volca and his LO Shaymin scores the special defense drop, i can't set up or kill cuz volca dies to earth power. fire-types die to earth power or HP Rock if they switch into a seed flare and take a drop in special defense. let's ban seed flare I guess!

you can say that these moves are rare and only used by one or two pokemon... but back in bw, why did they ban brightpowder in round 3 or something, when chomp was the only practical user of it? and later in bw, sand veil was banned despite the fact that only chomp could abuse it???? was 80% ice beam that bad or am I missing something here?

about scald v lava plume, yes scald is way better considering most pokemon that are immune to burns (e. g. fire-types) are hit super-effectively by it, but unless it's coming from something such as specs keldeo (which is not very hard to prepare for tbh), said fire-type can usually take a hit and retaliate with solarbeam (zard y) or set up (zard x, volca, bulky talon). you can use natural cure absorbers (celebi and starmie come to mind) or a lum berry on your physical sweeper (chomp, dragonite). defensive-inclined teams can also use aromatherapy/heal bell. magic guard clefable (which is S Rank) /reuniclus uses most bulky waters as setup fodder.
compare that to swagger for example where most of its abusers are prankster mons (klefki, thundurus which could set up with NP as well, sableye) where you HAD to chance 50/50s, and when you considered the fact that most swag teams carried Ditto or an unaware mon, you couldn't try to apply offensive pressure with a lum berry mon (this applies to ubers as well! you couldn't use shit such as SD Groudon to beat it). shadow tag is literally satan cuz if you switch gothitelle into a key defensive pokemon that happens to be using recover or a non-damaging move, you may as well say gg at that point! while geopass is so hard to properly beat due to offensive pressure being nullified by memento + dual screens and the fact that espeon is immune to shit such as roar and taunt, not to mention the threat of unaware clefable. prankster thundurus with taunt (which is kinda rare tbh) is like the only good check to that strategy lol

then again i heard that UU is way more affected by this move than OU - " UU players can tell you how negatively it affects the tier; stall wars between bulky waters simply fishing for Scald burns are not ideal under any circumstances. " i kinda agree with this tbh even though I don't really play this tier, considering there are so many bulky waters down there (suicune, slowking, swampert, seismitoad, milotic, alomomola etc etc.). maybe it should be banned from UU but no opinion here.

however, if the main concern is that scald changes the outcome of many tournament battles, we may as well ban critical hits then.

TL;DR Scald shouldn't be banned imo. I don't think it's as bad as say, Swagger or GeoPass.

 

[srinator]

not going to repeat arguments i've made in the past (i'll dig them up and link to them tomorrow) but this move really brings an imbalance to the game. water is a better offensive type than electric (discharge) and normal (body slam) to say the least, and lava plume can be counterplayed with fire-types and has far smaller distribution. water being a better *defensive* type is just as important since bulky waters (and even offensive ones like keld) get more opportunities to spam it than, say, a discharge thundurus or raikou would.

i think of it a lot like swagger. why would anyone want to keep this move around? don't want to get into burden of proof fallacy territory, but there are plenty of convincing arguments out there. just so this thread isn't a complete scald sucks symphony, i'm curious if anyone has seen a particularly good defense of the move?

Yh it was in the thread -https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scald.3541817/#post-6287375
6th para

 

[Neo_Angelo]

In my opinion, i don't think any move should be banned, There is always something to counter it, you just have to be smart, for example Swagger, the user risks giving the opponent a free sword dance in affect if the user is holding say a Lum berry or berry that heals confusion, so you basically just powered up your opponent to smash you.

With Scald while yes it does work well with being super effective on fire whilst losing the burn, there are plenty of things you can swap into it (any grass, bulky fighting, steel, bulky psychic, bulky dark, bulky fairy) theres a good selection to choose from.

Its all about outsmarting your opponent. most of my team run scald that can have it because it works with how my team are built (scald removes threat of physical attackers while i have Special defense walls). however you can couter burns easily with a berry, pscho shift, synchronize, healing bell, theres plenty of other options.

I think banning it in smogon would be counter productive, removing scald would reduce a certain type of play style, forcing that person to use a different strategy, then if everyone used that strategy there would be complaints about some other move that ruins anyone else not using it.

I'm not a Smogon player, i don't fully understand all the rules for it, but to me, everything should be included move wise at least, just because theres always a counter for it. reducing moves allowed reduces variety of strategies thus removes part of the fun of making a team that covers all possible strategies.

 

[Zeffy]

I'm just going to clarify some things.

In my opinion, i don't think any move should be banned, There is always something to counter it, you just have to be smart, for example Swagger, the user risks giving the opponent a free sword dance in affect if the user is holding say a Lum berry or berry that heals confusion, so you basically just powered up your opponent to smash you.

Lum Berry is a rather subpar hold item for most 'mons, because they could make use the passive regeneration of Leftovers or the offensive presence given by stat increasing items. Swagger hands down forces 50/50 battles where you absolutely have NO control, even if you were the one using it. If I wanted to play a 50/50 game, I wouldn't want it to be competitive Pokemon battles.

I think banning it in smogon would be counter productive, removing scald would reduce a certain type of play style, forcing that person to use a different strategy, then if everyone used that strategy there would be complaints about some other move that ruins anyone else not using it.

Is it really removing a certain playstyle though? Keep in mind that before Scald was introduced in Gen 5, pretty much all playstyles thrived.

I'm not a Smogon player, i don't fully understand all the rules for it, but to me, everything should be included move wise at least, just because theres always a counter for it. reducing moves allowed reduces variety of strategies thus removes part of the fun of making a team that covers all possible strategies.

I'd like to go over the bolded bit because, well, I kind of think that if you're going to comment on something then you should at least have a degree of knowledge or involvement in that thing.

 

[Neo_Angelo]

Lum Berry is a rather subpar hold item for most 'mons, because they could make use the passive regeneration of Leftovers or the offensive presence given by stat increasing items. Swagger hands down forces 50/50 battles where you absolutely have NO control, even if you were the one using it. If I wanted to play a 50/50 game, I wouldn't want it to be competitive Pokemon battles.

Maybe so, but some people might prefer high risk, high reward play styles. I for one prefer confuse ray myself just for the 50/50 they will attack themselves giving me a free move to boost a stat of something without the risk of being dealt extra damage from the increase in attack swagger gives. Pokemon isn't just always about pure power, i think of it as a really complicated type of chess game, by where its more about using your intelligence, prediction and combination of power and defense to beat your opponent. My friend uses all the highest base stat non legends and just goes on full power, no status moves, no buffs no recovery, just pure power, i beat him most times with my weak ass but staller wall pokemon.

Is it really removing a certain playstyle though?

Depends how you look at it, my team is based on burning the opponent to counter my weakness in defensive pokemon (mine are majority special defense walls) so yes in one respect it is a play style, i have two water pokemon in my team just for scalds (one runs Hex for lots of damage when they are burned, the other has will-o-wisp as main burner but scald if they are fire type).


While i'm not a Smogon player myself, i have taken an interest in learning, but even without the knowledge you guys have, surely as an outsider i can perhaps give a different perspective as my opinions will differ to that of smogon hardcore players as i tend to play with no particular rules (i limit myself to certain base average teams but thats about it, i like winning with less used, lower tiered/base stat pokemon).

All i'm saying is that to better your team and to become better at pokemon battles competitively, would it not be beneficial to leave all banned moves in, so that it gets you thinking of new ways to counter those teams that perhaps you might be weaker too?

When i Wifi battle, i see a lot of people using the same old pokemon, theres not much variety, and in honesty, i don't really face many pokemon with scald, its normally Mega this, Mega that, Uber legendaries, Normal legendaries (Latios is a favourite apparently). Sure you could argue that these players do not play Smogon either, i don't really know where to join in these types of battles, but playing these types of people who just use the most powerful pokemon they can find makes it more satisfying to win when i use weaker pokemon.

For me as a person, battling is all about exploiting your opponents weaknesses whilst not falling foul to your own. I tend to have terrible luck with most my status condition causing pokemon even with those who have high chances. A big part of pokemon is also luck, i mean, i get critical hits on my pokemon right when i really could do without being criticaled, yet when i'm praying to get a crit, i never get one or i get one when the opposing pokes is practically dead regardless of any other factors.

I guess thats why i love battling, because majority of it is skill, but luck plays a big part in swinging battles. (even though i'm the type of person who hates gambling, as i usually lose, i like low risk stuff).

I'm not saying i'm right when i say don't ban it, its just i feel it would remove some elements of fun to battling if it did get removed (plus it would form part of one of my teams strategies when i do play Smogon rules).

Heres another way to look at it, if everyone used these scald teams, and you make a team to counter it, you'd win a lot more battles, or if your like me who prefers to play defensive stalling, you might find it more difficult to face those scald teams, however you'd feel a much more sense of achievement beating them (i find it more satisfying to battle at a disadvantage and win, rather than just bowling over my opponent with over powered teams).

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Things can switch into Lava Plume a lot more easily too imo and as everyone has already said the distribution is so low that it's not something that is an issue. Scald is on so many relevant threats which is such an annoyance. Let's look at some common threats that run scald: Keldeo, Manaphy, Slowbro, Starmie, Slowking, Suicune, and some lower key mons such as Milotic and Alomamola. Whereas Lava Plume, it's fiery counterpart, and Discharge are only used by a couple of Pokemon such as Tran and Zapdos. The distribution of this move is entirely too high and when teambuilding you have to take into account "oh what can I switch into a Scald" because your opponent will have something running it. This restricts your teambuilding options way too much. There are very few things that can safely switch into Scald except shit mons such as Gastrodon whereas Heatran can safely switch into Lava Plume, Thundy-t and Mega Sceptile can safely switch into a Discharge. I do think it's an extremely cancerous when you have to prepare for a move as opposed to individual threatening Pokemon. So yes Scald is indeed broken.

But Thundy-T and Mega Sceptile aren't that good either. Thundy-T is kinda outclassed by its incarnate counterpart unless you want to run double dance, while Sceptile has a large opportunity cost and is revenge killed by stuff such as Talonflame and Scizor. Oh and speaking of Sceptile, it makes a great switch-in to scald because of its 4x resistance and access to Giga Drain to make up for the burn damage. Also Heatran is like the only user of Lava Plume in OU so it counters itself I guess... let's ban it? not to mention Earth Power will safely 2HKO

 

[Anti]

In my opinion, i don't think any move should be banned

What about OHKO moves?

Tiering involves arbitrary distinctions, but I am a little taken aback at how strongly people clench some ideal of not banning moves, as if this hasn't happened already (evasion, OHKO moves, Swagger).

scald shouldn't be banned. i don't think they should try THAT hard to minimize luck from this game. it isn't as bad as swagger, shadow tag or geopass.

by this logic we may as well ban sacred fire cuz it has a 50% (well, 47,5%) chance to burn, i know entei is the only user of it but back in dpp and maybe even bw idk what kept them from testing Ho-Oh - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ho-oh-%E2%80%93-is-it-truly-an-uber.46794/ .i mean if for example i have a hippo and his CB Entei scores the burn, i now can't wall stuff reliably unless heal bell comes into play. even bulky waters can't wall stuff that reliably while taking 12% damage per turn (or 6% with lefties). and what about seed flare? shaymin runs Rest, Seed Flare, Earth Power, and one HP of choice (rock, fire or ice) in OU IIRC. So if I have a volca and his LO Shaymin scores the special defense drop, i can't set up or kill cuz volca dies to earth power. fire-types die to earth power or HP Rock if they switch into a seed flare and take a drop in special defense. let's ban seed flare I guess!

you can say that these moves are rare and only used by one or two pokemon... but back in bw, why did they ban brightpowder in round 3 or something, when chomp was the only practical user of it? and later in bw, sand veil was banned despite the fact that only chomp could abuse it???? was 80% ice beam that bad or am I missing something here?

about scald v lava plume, yes scald is way better considering most pokemon that are immune to burns (e. g. fire-types) are hit super-effectively by it, but unless it's coming from something such as specs keldeo (which is not very hard to prepare for tbh), said fire-type can usually take a hit and retaliate with solarbeam (zard y) or set up (zard x, volca, bulky talon). you can use natural cure absorbers (celebi and starmie come to mind) or a lum berry on your physical sweeper (chomp, dragonite). defensive-inclined teams can also use aromatherapy/heal bell. magic guard clefable (which is S Rank) /reuniclus uses most bulky waters as setup fodder.
compare that to swagger for example where most of its abusers are prankster mons (klefki, thundurus which could set up with NP as well, sableye) where you HAD to chance 50/50s, and when you considered the fact that most swag teams carried Ditto or an unaware mon, you couldn't try to apply offensive pressure with a lum berry mon (this applies to ubers as well! you couldn't use muk such as SD Groudon to beat it). shadow tag is literally satan cuz if you switch gothitelle into a key defensive pokemon that happens to be using recover or a non-damaging move, you may as well say gg at that point! while geopass is so hard to properly beat due to offensive pressure being nullified by memento + dual screens and the fact that espeon is immune to muk such as roar and taunt, not to mention the threat of unaware clefable. prankster thundurus with taunt (which is kinda rare tbh) is like the only good check to that strategy lol

then again i heard that UU is way more affected by this move than OU - " UU players can tell you how negatively it affects the tier; stall wars between bulky waters simply fishing for Scald burns are not ideal under any circumstances. " i kinda agree with this tbh even though I don't really play this tier, considering there are so many bulky waters down there (suicune, slowking, swampert, seismitoad, milotic, alomomola etc etc.). maybe it should be banned from UU but no opinion here.

however, if the main concern is that scald changes the outcome of many tournament battles, we may as well ban critical hits then.

TL;DR Scald shouldn't be banned imo. I don't think it's as bad as say, Swagger or GeoPass.

All this pseudo-slippery slope stuff about "we might as well ban *insert move with an RNG-induced secondary effect*!" implicitly asserts that people want Scald banned exclusively because games can come down to a 30/70 roll, "who burns first," or any other hax scenario. This argument ignores that a huge reason people want to remove Scald is that is severely limits counterplays to Water-types. Azumarill would be a great Keldeo check, but it isn't. You can't switch physical attackers into Scald users, period. The type chart covers for Discharge and Lava Plume with Ground-types (forget about Thundurus-T and Mega Sceptile lol) and Fire-types, respectively. These contingencies don't exist for Scald, and you can toss out Starmie or Celebi all you want, but both can be bypassed depending on the Scald user--does Starmie or Clefable want to switch into Mega Slowbro so its team can get 6-0ed?--and they are more exceptions than anything else. And since these contingencies don't exist for Scald, you're often forced into 50-50s every bit as much as you are with Swagger. It's extremely difficult to play around. Also, distribution matters. If every Fire-type got Sacred Fire, it would probably be a big problem. But they don't, and it isn't.

The luck element is still very important. I think burns are much more crippling than, say, SDef drops from the obscenely bad Shaymin and its Seed Flare. Why not ban Seed Flare? lol. It's one of those cute one-liners that breaks down the second you look anywhere beneath the surface.

edit: i didn't ignore the point about fire-types but come on, talk about a selective with a freaking drought poke and the one fire-type that isn't weak to water, not like zard x can come in on keldeo or slowbro AT ALL lol

 

[Detox]

Scald isn't actually "broken" to me. I'd actually consider it unhealthy before I called it broken. Whether something can be unhealthy without being broken or vice versa is another topic, though.

Anyways, I don't really have much to say that someone hasn't really touched on. Scald pretty much breaks the type chat because you don't really have a solid answer to it as you do with moves such as Lava Plume and Discharge. You don't want to be burned? Well unfortunately, you cannot switch a fire type into Scald unless you're making the most high risk low reward play in history. Want to switch in a water or grass type to take the hit? Cool, now you have a pretty high chance of being burned. You basically end up picking your poison a lot of times with Scald and I am sure that most people would agree that this is not a good thing.

I don't even know if this has been brought up yet because I haven't really read a lot of these posts for varying reasons, but I'm not entirely sold on the walls needing scald to operate thing. If Scald takes away their ability to function then they probably weren't very good to begin with (yeah Alomomola I'm calling you out homie). We've had generations without Scald and bulky waters were perfectly fine without it.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

All this pseudo-slippery slope stuff about "we might as well ban *insert move with an RNG-induced secondary effect*!" implicitly asserts that people want Scald banned exclusively because games can come down to a 30/70 roll, "who burns first," or any other hax scenario. This argument ignores that a huge reason people want to remove Scald is that is severely limits counterplays to Water-types. Azumarill would be a great Keldeo check, but it isn't. You can't switch physical attackers into Scald users, period. The type chart covers for Discharge and Lava Plume with Ground-types (forget about Thundurus-T and Mega Sceptile lol) and Fire-types, respectively. These contingencies don't exist for Scald, and you can toss out Starmie or Celebi all you want, but both can be bypassed depending on the Scald user--does Starmie or Clefable want to switch into Mega Slowbro so its team can get 6-0ed?--and they are more exceptions than anything else. And since these contingencies don't exist for Scald, you're often forced into 50-50s every bit as much as you are with Swagger. It's extremely difficult to play around. Also, distribution matters. If every Fire-type got Sacred Fire, it would probably be a big problem. But they don't, and it isn't.

The luck element is still very important. I think burns are much more crippling than, say, SDef drops from the obscenely bad Shaymin and its Seed Flare. Why not ban Seed Flare? lol. It's one of those cute one-liners that breaks down the second you look anywhere beneath the surface.

edit: i didn't ignore the point about fire-types but come on, talk about a selective with a freaking drought poke and the one fire-type that isn't weak to water, not like zard x can come in on keldeo or slowbro AT ALL lol

but... chomp can't safely come in on tran and try to set up a SD, for fear of lava plume, right? gatr can't try to set up dragon dances on tran for the same reasons right? (i know sd chomp sometimes runs lum and Gatr isn't that common but you get my point). i guess we can't switch physical attackers into tran then, and target its weaker defense? then again there are air balloon heatran variants but those run fire blast anyway so yea.

keldeo can run HP Electric if it wants to remove azu (and ohko gyara) considering the 4th slot is so flexible. not to mention this:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 161-190 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
so azu can't switch into keldeo all day, and if rocks are up, it fails unless hydro miss decides to be a bitch.

thundy-t can check electric-types quite nicely actually, especially if they're choice-locked. then again discharge isn't common but you can catch a choice specs raikou or something, set up, and slay it with a +2 focus blast, or hit the incoming pokemon hard with a +0 t-bolt. scep brings useful resistances to water and electric that fire-types could only dream of. also, fire-types expecting a defensive heatran might run into a choice scarf/air balloon set that is just waiting to surprise them and go for the ohko with a shitty move such as earth power (or ancientpower/stone edge if you really really want to beat talon/zard-y/volca but i don't recommend it). defensive heatran can stall out any fire-type without EQ with toxic and possibly taunt.
starmie can always run thunderbolt if it wants to beat slowbro. also, i don't think cm m-slowbro depends that much on scald to do its job. it has a big advantage in psyshock, a gigantic defense stat, shell armor and slack off for reliable recovery, and it could do its job with surf too.

the point is that scald, while it's certainly a good move and really annoying, and definitely better than stuff such as lava plume, is not uncompetitive enough to get the axe imo. you can work around it fairly easily as described in the last post, compared to shit such as swagger

 

[Anti]

but... chomp can't safely come in on tran and try to set up a SD, for fear of lava plume, right? gatr can't try to set up dragon dances on tran for the same reasons right? (i know sd chomp sometimes runs lum and Gatr isn't that common but you get my point). i guess we can't switch physical attackers into tran then, and target its weaker defense? then again there are air balloon heatran variants but those run fire blast anyway so yea.

This is true, but I don't think it actually contradicts a Scald ban. Imagine if Fire was a premier defensive type and Lava Plume was getting spammed to death. People would probably hate it too. I think it would be less broken because of the type chart, but I think that you can't really isolate variables (like distribution, power, hax, etc.) the way you sometimes can with Pokemon suspects.

keldeo can run HP Electric if it wants to remove azu (and ohko gyara) considering the 4th slot is so flexible. not to mention this:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 161-190 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
so azu can't switch into keldeo all day, and if rocks are up, it fails unless hydro miss decides to be a rattata.

This is where threads get derailed. Instead of taking the point (a physical attacking check is rendered null), let's nitpick it to death instead as if any of these details matter!

(If you really want to go there: your extremely selective data sets strike again. Assault Vest Azumarill walls any set, period, and if Keldeo isn't running Specs or is running Specs but not HP Electric, odds are Keldeo is losing 100% of the time? Scald nullifies this check, period.)

thundy-t can check electric-types quite nicely actually, especially if they're choice-locked. then again discharge isn't common but you can catch a choice specs raikou or something, set up, and slay it with a +2 focus blast, or hit the incoming pokemon hard with a +0 t-bolt. scep brings useful resistances to water and electric that fire-types could only dream of. also, fire-types expecting a defensive heatran might run into a choice scarf/air balloon set that is just waiting to surprise them and go for the ohko with a mukty move such as earth power (or ancientpower/stone edge if you really really want to beat talon/zard-y/volca but i don't recommend it). defensive heatran can stall out any fire-type without EQ with toxic and possibly taunt.

What does any of this have to do with anything? There is no need to aimlessly sift through details that are not relevant.

starmie can always run thunderbolt if it wants to beat slowbro. also, i don't think cm m-slowbro depends that much on scald to do its job. it has a big advantage in psyshock, a gigantic defense stat, shell armor and slack off for reliable recovery, and it could do its job with surf too.

I wanted to single this part out because it speaks to what Syn mentioned. I don't think that bulky Waters functioning fine with Surf (which I agree is absolutely true) really contradicts anything, though I think Keldeo would get substantially worse. The point is more that Slowbro can spam Scald very easily, and the "blanket checks" to it all get shredded up except Nasty Plot Celebi. That's where distribution matters and why Lava Plume being limited to Heatran within the metagame really helps in dealing with it versus Scald.

the point is that scald, while it's certainly a good move and really annoying, and definitely better than stuff such as lava plume, is not uncompetitive enough to get the axe imo. you can work around it fairly easily as described in the last post, compared to muk such as swagger

This is fine, but "not uncompetitive enough," while it's never going to be reduced to an objective criterion, strikes me as extremely ambiguous in the context of your post. Especially since the "you can work around it" argument was not convincing at all, I'm curious what parameters make something uncompetitive enough to get banned?

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

This is true, but I don't think it actually contradicts a Scald ban. Imagine if Fire was a premier defensive type and Lava Plume was getting spammed to death. People would probably hate it too. I think it would be less broken because of the type chart, but I think that you can't really isolate variables (like distribution, power, hax, etc.) the way you sometimes can with Pokemon suspects.



This is where threads get derailed. Instead of taking the point (a physical attacking check is rendered null), let's nitpick it to death instead as if any of these details matter!

(If you really want to go there: your extremely selective data sets strike again. Assault Vest Azumarill walls any set, period, and if Keldeo isn't running Specs or is running Specs but not HP Electric, odds are Keldeo is losing 100% of the time? Scald nullifies this check, period.)



What does any of this have to do with anything? There is no need to aimlessly sift through details that are not relevant.



I wanted to single this part out because it speaks to what Syn mentioned. I don't think that bulky Waters functioning fine with Surf (which I agree is absolutely true) really contradicts anything, though I think Keldeo would get substantially worse. The point is more that Slowbro can spam Scald very easily, and the "blanket checks" to it all get shredded up except Nasty Plot Celebi. That's where distribution matters and why Lava Plume being limited to Heatran within the metagame really helps in dealing with it versus Scald.



This is fine, but "not uncompetitive enough," while it's never going to be reduced to an objective criterion, strikes me as extremely ambiguous in the context of your post. Especially since the "you can work around it" argument was not convincing at all, I'm curious what parameters make something uncompetitive enough to get banned?

Imo a Pokemon or strategy is uncompetitive if:
a) it maximizes the luck factor to a point where it can consistently force a game to depend on luck. This is the case with Swagger, OHKO moves, evasion, Moody and QuiverPass Veno in UU.
b) it can remove an opposing Pokemon with absolutely no support (Shadow Tag Gothitelle)
c) it can decide games right from the beginning (full BP and I'd say GeoPass too)
d) is extremely dominant, and thus, not fun to use or face. This is mostly a problem in Ubers, with Primal Groudon getting ¬70% usage.

When looking at Scald, some could say this move meets a), but I don't agree, and I will compare it to OHKO moves and Swagger. Scald has a 30% chance to burn, but Sheer Cold has a 30% chance to outright OHKO a Pokemon. Do we really want to put Scald in the same category as Sheer Cold? (then again that move is banned from ubers as well but you get it) I think not. Besides, there is absolutely nothing you can do when facing Sheer Cold. Back in the BW2 Ubers suspect test, Kyogre used this move on a defensive set to try and break through Latias. Imagine if your opponent has a 30% chance to simply break your counter. Then there's Swagger which is once again something you cannot do much against. I will just quote this (this is from an ubers thread but it applies to OU as well):

Because most of your suggestions aren't solutions:

Lum Berry is temporary and shoddy at best - even if you use it to foil Swagger once, there is nothing stopping the Swagger team from sending out another Swagger user and then owning you. You also cannot switch a Pokemon with Lum Berry into Swagger, otherwise the berry will be gone and you'll just get hit by it again. Not to mention most Swagger abusers carry other status options, so at the end of the day you're still getting crippled. It's also cute that most of the things that can viably run Lum Berry (Groudon, Arceus) are physical attackers that will swiftly be abused by Scarf Ditto.

Ground-types barring the largely unviable Stunfisk have very high Attack stats that allow them to quickly be killed by Foul Play. Not to mention that Sableye (used on Fixed's team) can simply burn the Ground-type and render them useless. They simply lessen the luck element slightly by removing paralysis from the equation, but they do not fix the problem. The fact that most Grounds are physical also compounds the problem of Scarf Ditto abusing the Swagger boosts.

Extremespeed is a laughable solution given that the two most common abusers (Klefki and Sableye) are resistant/immune to the move...also its a physical move on physical sweepers so the whole Scarf Ditto thing rears its head yet again.

Priority Taunt is usable by only a couple viable Pokemon (Sableye and Thundurus-I) that can also use Swagger themselves. I hope you like Speed ties.

So before you complain that people aren't preparing, step back and consider if you can prepare for it well at all - and you'll find there is not much you can do in actuality.

Which is something Scald can't do because burn can very well be absorbed (by a natural cure mon, something with lum berry, magic guard clef/reuniclus, or even a Fire-type with a lot of special bulk), 30% < 50%, and a chance to burn is not even comparable to a chance to OHKO the opposing mon.

About Keldeo v Azumarill, well Specs is Keldeo's most common set, which doesn't entirely depend on Scald to beat Azu. Also, AV Azu is kinda rare compared to BD and CB

 

[Neo_Angelo]

Which is something Scald can't do because burn can very well be absorbed (by a natural cure mon, something with lum berry, magic guard clef/reuniclus, or even a Fire-type with a lot of special bulk), 30% < 50%, and a chance to burn is not even comparable to a chance to OHKO the opposing mon.

About Keldeo v Azumarill, well Specs is Keldeo's most common set, which doesn't entirely depend on Scald to beat Azu. Also, AV Azu is kinda rare compared to BD and CB

THANK YOU, This is what i've been trying to say, theres so many counters for scald, i even thought up some more (covering a range of tiers):

Guts: 50% boost in ATTACK if user has status major status conditions. (Use a tactic like Bulky noctowl with Psycho-shift and Facade or Swellow with Facade) you'd power them up. (use to combat scald in lower tiers which people say its more of a problem), for OU Conkeldurr

Marvel Scale: Enter Milotic (just happens to be a wonderful check to any scald spammer as non effective + boosts def if burned)

Harvest: Please welcome your host....Trevenant, Lum berry trevenant Vs scald = goodbye water scald users, You could also say Trevenant can also block Swagger spams too

Poison Healers: Breloom with toxic orb, will out speed most waters, cause toxic on himself which stops burn, combined with Fling means you can put a timer on opposing scald spammer.

Facade: Basically any bulky physical attackers with Facade will LOVE being burned. best thing about facade? practically ANY pokemon can learn it!

Water Absorb: Lapras, Jelly, all good scald counters

Maybe people want it banned because they haven't truly took a step back and looked at the options available, This quote sums it up perfectly:

"What are your choices when someone puts a gun to your head?
What are you talking about? You do what they say or they shoot you.
WRONG. You take the gun, or you pull out a bigger one. Or, you call their bluff. Or, you do any one of a hundred and forty six other things."

What about OHKO moves?

I had a think about that, and come up with a simple solution to completely negating OHKO moves, hows this for a strategy?:

Protect: if OHKO pokes uses mind reader for guaranteed OHKO, use protect, will waste PP for the OHKO move (at best it'll have 8 PP).

Grudge: If pokes gets killed by OHKO move, goodbye PP for it.

Spite: Use protect to prevent OHKO move then spite it to burn its PP.

Plus OHKO moves have god awful accuracy so the user is risking losing a turn.

While you may not think these are suitable counters, i'm just saying that every move has a counter, thats why i don't think banning any move is worth it.
​

 

[2Fruit]

On a side note, I don't think Scald should be banned in double and triple battles, because it is a way to use special water attacks if you don't want to hurt your partner with surf.

 

[srinator]

Scald fucking changes game outcomes too much, and there goes. Not one match without me praying pls no burn pls no burn pls no burn, I don't get how a attack that just needs enough intuition as to when to bring in a mon to spam the attack freely to net potential burns and in turn destroy a mon's long term capability is not viewed by a majority as uncompetitive and broken