5th Gen Separate Pokemon or Forms?

[MarioManH]

We all know by now that they showed pictures of 2 new pokemon that seemed to be fusions of Reshiram + Kyurem and Zekrom + Kyurem. Well heres what I have been wondering, will these forms be seperate pokemon from Zekrom, Reshiram and Kyurem( As in different Pokedex entries) OR will they be forms of the Pokemon themselves. If they are forms( Like Girantina to Origin Girantina) will they be formes of Reshiram and Zekrom OR forms of Kyurem?

Discuss

 

[Mew~]

I think the movie sort of confirmed these are forms of Kyurem, well at least that's what serebii seems to be saying, so I'll go along with not.

Though, that doesn't mean they couldn't be separate Pokémon, I certainly wouldn't be very surprised.

 

[Tachikaze]

Matsuda listed them as separate Pokemon - "Black" Kyurem and "White" Kyurem. But I still think they're just forms.

 

[bwburke94]

They are indeed forms, though I'm guessing that Black Kyurem is exclusive to B2 and White Kyurem is exclusive to W2. This fits with what we saw in the BW filler data, as long as there are no remakes this gen.

 

[Jaypee]

Reshiram represents yang.
Zekrom represents yin.
Originally, they were a single dragon that helped found the Unova region's nation, but fighting between the two brothers who founded the nation split them into two halves.

If you look at the poster of the forms, it's like kyurem's RIGHT half + reshiram's LEFT half and kyurem's LEFT half + zekrom's RIGHT half.

FUSION?? I don't think so.

 

[Marilynasol]

As far as whether or not "Black" Kyurem and "White" Kyurem are forms or separate species, Serebii.net reported the following:

Edit: Junichi Masuda has revealed the names of Kyurem's new forms via his Twitter account. The forms are simply called Black Kyurem & White Kyurem, though he interestingly lists them as seperate Pokémon

I think that "Black" Kyurem and "White" Kyurem are not entirely separate species, but not that much forms of Kyurem. Rather, I see them as in-between species. I theorize that the are very similar to forms, but they, in the sense of the Pokemon world, aren't entirely forms. Rather, they are fusions of two different species, something never been done in the main series games. And I can't say I'd expect something anymore, because the reveal of Pokemon Black 2 and Pokemon White 2 came by total shock to me, but I could see that they could introduce more "fusion forms", but rather of a Reshiram-Zekrom fusion, and/or a fusion of all three.

These games may totally change the nature/physics/chemistry/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of Pokemon. Many people have suggested that these new Kyurem "forms" could have a triple typing. While I somewhat doubt this is possible (the tying of Freeze Shock and Ice Burn suggests that Kyurem keeps at least its ice-typing upon transformation/fusion/whatever), this would be the only case where triple typings are accepted, as they are demi-Gods/legendaries in the Pokemon world and aren't acceptable in the metagame.

 

[Cazzef]

They are two Kyurem forms, but as others have said, it seems that they are 'seperate Pokemon species' I wonder if they drop their Dragon typing for Ice/Fire and Electric respectively.

 

[Raichupacabra]

No. All the known Pokemon for Generation V were revealed a year and a half ago. They can't put new Pokemon in the middle of the generation (in the games), because that would screw up a lot of things including the PokeDex which was already established.

tl;dr When they make new games, they make data for unreleased Pokemon. BK and WK aren't any of them.

 

[miltankRancher]

There is really a low chance of it appearing as new Pokemon. Unless we have entered generation six unknowingly, this will be kyruem forms. much like Rotom, Shaymin, and Giratina gained new forms in pt.

 

[fenyx4]

No. All the known Pokemon for Generation V were revealed a year and a half ago. They can't put new Pokemon in the middle of the generation (in the games), because that would screw up a lot of things including the PokeDex which was already established.

tl;dr When they make new games, they make data for unreleased Pokemon. BK and WK aren't any of them.

They likely can't make any new species of Pokemon catchable/ownable (and by extension, tradeable) by the player, as that would give capacity to interact with BW which would have no data for said new species, but we can still see cameos of new Pokemon species in the games. Although it was in a home console Pokemon game, Bonsly managed to debut in a Generation 3 main series game prior to its formal introduction in Generation 4. I'm not sure whether Orre has its own "Pokedex", but Bonsly would likely be a foreigner to whatever system they use to record existing Pokemon. And I would think that the games make it clear that the PokeDex may never be "complete"; countless species of Pokemon await discovery, so it seems. Being a sequel, B2/W2's Unova Pokedex could even be 'updated' to list the original Kyurem, Black Kyurem, and White Kyurem as three separate Kyurem "species", whatever that means.

Personally, I would classify Black Kyurem and White Kyurem as Formes of Kyurem, although it's very peculiar that Junichi Masuda apparently classified them as "separate Pokemon" rather than Formes. Who knows what they are, exactly... :<

 

[bwburke94]

Interesting to see someone who shares my opinions on the GameCube games' main series status. Anyway, they are two alternate formes of Kyurem. Enough said.

Interestingly, Kyurem only has data for two formes in B/W, one of which is its original forme and one of which is filler data. This may mean the alternate formes are true exclusives (like Shadow Lugia) instead of normal alternate formes (like Giratina.)

 

[Oryx]

Interestingly, Kyurem only has data for two formes in B/W, one of which is its original forme and one of which is filler data. This may mean the alternate formes are true exclusives (like Shadow Lugia) instead of normal alternate formes (like Giratina.)

False. Kyurem has a "1" in its number of forms spot, when that shouldn't be possible. If it has alternate forms, it has a 2 (for original and new form) or above depending on the number of forms. If it has no extra forms, it has a 0. Kyurem had a 1. So did Rotom, and Rotom certainly got many new forms. Kyurem can have 500 forms if they wanted it to. I'm still sticking to "these are separate Pokemon" though.

https://pokebeach.com/2012/02/placeholder-for-kyurem-forme-found-in-black-and-white-coding

 

[Pkmn Trainer Touko]

They are separate Pokemon.

This diagram is what convinced me of it. It makes perfect sense for them to be the light within the darkness, and the darkness within the light.

 

[Garringman]

Well I read somewhere that Zekrom and Reshiram were once part of a single being and that Kyurem was the leftover remains of another being, most likely the same being. So I think that Black and White Kyurem are Zekrom and Reshiram before the complete separation, possibly even following another form of Kyurem. It also may be related to the same kind of strange experimentation that Team Plasma performed to create Genosect.

 

[Rebel Rebel]

Am I the only one who thinks the whole "Masuda said they were different Pokémon" thing is just a mistranslation/misunderstanding? So he said they're new Pokémon; well, that's technically true - they're Pokémon, and they're new. That doesn't mean they're separate species. In fact, I would argue that it's impossible for several reasons.

First of all, they have never added new species in the middle of a generation before. Making them new Pokémon would make them impossible to trade/battle with BW because they don't exist there; on the contrary, having them be forms of Kyurem works out because they can simply revert it to its standard form when communicating with BW.

Secondly, there's the name issue. These Pokémon are called "Black Kyurem" and "White Kyurem", not "Kyuram" and "Kyurom", or "Reshyurem" and "Zekyurem", as some people refer to them. Why would a unique species be referred to as a variant of an existing Pokémon? Plus, "Black Kyurem" and "White Kyurem" can't be species names because they surpass the character limit. And for the people claiming that they're not forms because they don't have the word "forme" in their names; neither do the Rotom forms; in fact, they are named the same way as Black/White Kyurem, with the form name followed by the species name (Mow Rotom, Frost Rotom, etc.)

 

[vaporeon7]

They're different formes. We wouldn't be getting a new generation of Pokémon yet, and besides, Pokémon names can only have 10 characters, so 'Black Kyurem' or 'White Kyurem' wouldn't fit anyway. There would also be the obvious compatibility issues with B/W as well.

 

[Oryx]

First of all, they have never added new species in the middle of a generation before. Making them new Pokémon would make them impossible to trade/battle with BW because they don't exist there; on the contrary, having them be forms of Kyurem works out because they can simply revert it to its standard form when communicating with BW.

They've never had two new games like this before. We're in unfamiliar territory here. I was going to quote the rest of your post and basically say the same thing, but going by past precedent is definitely not the way to go at this point in time, considering how unusual this series of events is.

They're different formes. We wouldn't be getting a new generation of Pokémon yet, and besides, Pokémon names can only have 10 characters, so 'Black Kyurem' or 'White Kyurem' wouldn't fit anyway. There would also be the obvious compatibility issues with B/W as well.

Do they fit in the Japanese character limit? That's the real question. Since the tweet was in Japanese, as long as they fit in the Japanese character limit they can translate it to something shorter, or even make the games so they can fit an extra character.

 

[Superjub]

I have to admit, I too think they are just new formes. It just seems really unlike that they'll add two new Pokemon which could so easily be formes. However, Game Freak have suprised me before (Luvdisc and Alomomola, and now this, so I guess anything is possible.

 

[Xander Olivieri]

New trailer came out today for the movie and they May very well be new Forms. I'm waiting for filb.de to update the video so we can see it as the screen shots don't tell us much.

 

[hchaos2]

Even though I agree they are definitely forms, for everyone saying that they can't add something that wouldn't be compatible, don't be too sure. If anyone remembers correctly, Gold and Silver could trade with Red and Blue, so long as Gold/Silver players didn't have any Johto Pokemon in their parties at the time.