Serious Speaking ill of the dead

[Hands]

fwiw if you're going to mention the concept of sea-lioning, it would be better to give more of a direct explanation about why it brings down this particular discussion/how it contributes to a poor argument and what not

Absolutely.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning


The constant requests for completely unobtainable proof is bad faith, especially considering that an individual who is using sea-lioning will absolutely and observably never request the same dogmatic level of proof when the negative claim is against a left wing figure or someone linked to any form of Marxism or collectivism, in those cases they will accept and often cite even the most watery sources.

Compare this to any claim making a statement about a right winger and the sea-lion will ask for irrefutable proof time and time again. The unrealistic and constant demands for absolute proof are only ever levied when a claim is against a right wing figure. They will never ask for this in any debate where a Left Wing figure is the center of the negative claim and will happily accept just about anything loosely defined as proof in those cases.



As for why Sea-Lioning is a problem, we only need look at the wording used here. In the real world we know that tax dodgers do not say "The reason I have only donated to causes that are tax deductible and do not serve the common man is to dodge tax" This is not a quote that would ever exist yet it's the only proof that the individual employing the tactic will accept. And they are only willing to accept that because they're fully aware it does not exist.

In the real world we have to look at the wider picture. The individual sea-lioning does not want to do that, they will continuously harp on about one isolated detail, they chop up quotes and they misrepresent elements and then they try and set the standard with that.

The reason its particularly damaging to a wider discussion about why a figure like Koch was bad is because it relies on misleading the less informed both by presenting a very contextually bare piece of information and demanding a level of proof that is unobtainable and that the individual knows is unobtainable which is exactly why they focus on that particular minutia instead of on the far wider argument being presented which is observable when all context is presented. Because, in this case, no one outside of Koch himself could ever provide the quote, the Sea-Lion knows they can create the illusion that there is no proof to the much wider picture (which they will never fully address)

We can observably see some of this in action where the member I addressed over sea-lioning took a quote of mine, chopped out most of the words and then presented it as a completely different claim. When I called them out on this, they feigned civility. It's absolutely detrimental to an open and honest debate environment.