Stealing

[DarkDoom3000]

Oh ok then.

I don't see why stealing from other ppl is any different than stealing from nintendo.

 

[thepsynergist]

Because Game Freak specifically states that as long as you credit them for the idea of Pokemon, you are allowed to make fan games using their material, or else all fan games would be illegal.

 

[Pablo49]

But Nintendo has pulled DCMA on some of the larger fan-games, like the MMO ones. GameFreak might not mind, but it seems Nintendo does.

 

[DarkDoom3000]

If nintendo came out and demanded everyone stop making fangames. would anyone really stop? no.

Saying it's alright to steal from the big companies, but not other people is just hypocritical.

 

[Ravecat]

Doesn't Nintendo have the same right then? They have the same rights to their creations as anyone here.

Of course they do... That's incredibly obvious. The difference is Nintendo forfeited the legal rights to their artwork because they do. not. care.

I think it's okay to ask for credit for rips, but I don't think it should be required, nor should the artists get all bent out of shape to find that they weren't given credit. Some tags on rips I've seen threaten to stop putting out rips if they find their work uncredited. It's a little too much.

Rips are completely different. Anybody can go and rip the tiles and asking for credit for a rip is ridiculous unless it's particularly difficult to obtain.

"Because Nintendo makes millions of dollars with the graphics that a team of people have created and it really doesn't bother them that people use them."

I'm sorry but that is a TERRIBLE mindset, just because they're a big company doesn't make stealing right. You make it sound like we're all Robin hood :/

*ahem,* no, because if you cared to comprehend you would understand that I stated Nintendo have made it clear they do not care if we use their graphics.

Use their graphics, NOT steal their graphics. They are not the same thing.
We are not a group of thieves pilfering from the treasury of a corrupt sheriff, and that is a horrible analogy to draw.


I think it's very strange that you all refer to the use of the official graphics as "stealing."
• When you use graphics from Nintendo, a company that has stated they don't care if you do, you are not stealing.
• When you use custom graphics made by someone personally, and they have stated they do not want you to, you are stealing.
This is not a difficult concept god damn it.

 

[Worldslayer608]

Of course they do... That's incredibly obvious. The difference is Nintendo forfeited the legal rights to their artwork because they do. not. care.


Rips are completely different. Anybody can go and rip the tiles and asking for credit for a rip is ridiculous unless it's particularly difficult to obtain.


*ahem,* no, because if you cared to comprehend you would understand that I stated Nintendo have made it clear they do not care if we use their graphics.

Use their graphics, NOT steal their graphics. They are not the same thing.
We are not a group of thieves pilfering from the treasury of a corrupt sheriff, and that is a horrible analogy to draw.


I think it's very strange that you all refer to the use of the official graphics as "stealing."
• When you use graphics from Nintendo, a company that has stated they don't care if you do, you are not stealing.
• When you use custom graphics made by someone personally, and they have stated they do not want you to, you are stealing.
This is not a difficult concept god damn it.

Nintendo has not forfeited any legal rights. But they have practically given consent to use their things for personal/non-profit purposes. They can still sue you if you start profiting off their work.

But the end statement can't be stated any better.

 

[DarkDoom3000]

Heres MY genral rule of thumb.

If it's non profit, and you're getting full credit for your work, then I really see no problem.


Im also using FF8 music for my game, couldn't care less about squre's legal matters.


EDIT: can I also get sauce on gamefreak saying it's ok to make fangames using their assets.

 

[Pablo49]

Can you please post that source, DarkDoom?

Also, My use of the word "stealing" shouldn't be anything worth discussing. You know the implied meaning, we don't need to go into semantics.

Remember, I have said before this is not only about graphics. Regardless if GameFreak gives legit permission to use their assets. Pokemon names, the Pokemon name itself and such are all trademarks, which Nintendo protects strongly, and it is clearly stated by them. Not to mention the intellectual property. So if your game has any real Pokemon in them or has the Pokemon name, it still falls under "stealing" or whatever word you prefer to use. So this still boils down to the original question of the thread. If we can take from Nintendo and give credit, why can't we do the same for fan-games? Or the opposite of that, If we don't want to take from our peers, why do we take from Nintendo?

 

[DarkDoom3000]

^ I don't have the sorce, Someone said that gamefreak said its ok to make fangames using assets. Which can't be true. So I'm asking for the sorce, as google failed to turn up results. (I'm smelling BS, but I could be wrong!)

I give the same rights to nintendo, square, sony etc as any resorces made from the internet. If it's avalible, and I want to use it. I will use it and give you proper credit.

 

[Pablo49]

Oh, I misread your post, I thought you said you had it. Whoops. Google search never brought up anything for me when i tried to fact check earlier. I think it's something like with ROMs, how the most common rule of thumb is if you own the real version, you can have a copy of a rom, legally. It's so widespread that it is regarded as true. Even though it is, in fact, illegal. Everyone heard from someone that is was okay to do, but seemingly no one can point to a first hand source. But again, regardless of if the gamefreak thing is true or not, there are still Trademarks and intellectual property involved, which we know their views of. So the question of the thread still stands.

 

[Ravecat]

It's not semantics in saying there is a difference between stealing and using.
They're completely different terms.

The answer to this "original question" you keep talking of has been answered numurous times, you just choose to ignore it.

It's okay to use Nintendo assets, because they don't care. It is not stealing if they let you have it.
It's not okay to use private custom assets, because they do care. It is stealing if you take it anyway.

Here's an analogy that I should hope will clear things up:
Let's say you're in an indie band, and you consistently play with a group of other indie bands.
It's okay to use a famous rock song, because they don't care. It is not stealing if they let you use it.
It's not okay to use one of the other indie band's songs, because they do care. It is stealing if you take it anyway.

Nintendo has not forfeited any legal rights. But they have practically given consent to use their things for personal/non-profit purposes. They can still sue you if you start profiting off their work.

I didn't mean to imply the term forfeited literally or legally, but you're very right.

 

[Alistair]

To be honest, I do not find it okay to use Nintendo's graphics (or any company's graphics, for that matter), even if you have properly supported the game (bought it). Why? Well, for one, you are just taking the hard work and effort from a team of artists and using their work without even giving them an ounce of recognition for their work. In my books, that's a big no-no. Second off, Nintendo and Game Freak own all rights to the work. With that fact in consideration, any legal actions or statements made by either of the companies cannot be challenged. In essence, if you try to fight something like that, you'll lose like a snowball in a volcano. I do understand, though, that some people are unable to use anything besides the official graphics when making a fangame, but when that's the only solution, I would try to credit the original artists in full by name (and not by company, like "Credit to Nintendo"). But finally, Nintendo has stated before that they don't mind fangames as long as their material isn't used. That's been posted here before, and I'll edit this with the link when I can find it.

As for people requiring credit for ripping graphics or resources, that's also inexcusable. I really don't care how hard it is to rip graphics from a game, even if the graphics or game is really hard to get, you are essentially stealing another's work in my view, especially because the original creators usually aren't mentioned.

If someone does credit the original creator of the work and makes credit himself/herself optional, I'm okay with that. For one, the original creator is being recognized for his/her hard work, and two, the ripper is at least saying that he/she did put a bit of effort into ripping the graphics. However, as for usage of said work, well, my thoughts on that are above.

When it comes to the artwork of a private, not-for-profit artist (or commission-based artist), I think obeying the rules they have set for their work is not only a courtesy, but a requirement. For one, even though it is fan art and the companies hold rights to the subject material, the artist still holds creative rights over the work itself. Many artists (such as myself), even register our work under the creative commons license in order to protect our work. Not obeying the rules an artist has set and, for example, using something without credit is outright stealing.

Some derivative fan art, like some recent Gen IV and Gen V imitations, are a gray area. While the work is original in the respect that the artist created the graphics from scratch, many times the work is completely derived from its original subject and basically reformatted to fit on a 2D plane rather than exist as a 3D object in a 3D plane. In a nutshell, it's making a 3D model into a sprite from scratch. But like I said, this is too much of a gray area for me to make a solid opinion about it. I honestly don't know if something like that would count as a rip, or if it would count as scratch work.

 

[DarkDoom3000]

It's okay to use Nintendo assets, because they don't care. It is not stealing if they let you have it.

sauce?

They've shut down fangames before, they do care.

And like I said before- Even if nintendo goes and demands everyone stop pokemon fangames, is anyone actually gonna stop? No. noboby cares. Fangames exist for probably every game. regardless of what the creators want.

 

[Ravecat]

Whether people stop or not if Nintendo demand it is completely irrelevant at this point because it hasn't happened. Why you keep bringing it up is beyond me.

And sauce? For what? For basic logic? You don't have a leg to stand on here.
(I ask you this: have they ever sued someone making a freeware Pokémon fangame with their assets?)

Alistair, nobody in their right mind would challenge Nintendo's decision to cancel a fan game using Game Freak's assets.
If you're using their sprites and they tell you to stop, that's fair enough and you should stop, just like you shouldn't use any other artist's work without their permission.
This much is obvious.
Regarding credit, however, I feel like you were arguing with my point, when in fact we have the same stance. Demanding credit for rips is stupid, however if it's something like the entire set of Black and White Pokémon, for example, then asking for credit if they should choose to give it is acceptable from my point of view. Because at that point you're not crediting them for the sprites, you're crediting them for the work and effort they put in, which in turn helped your game's development.

 

[Alistair]

I think you'd be surprised at how stupid some people are. Challenge it in a court of law, no. But continue working on the game? My guess is that there are at least a few people in the world that would do that (hence the challenge part).

 

[Ravecat]

Well you're right; I always forget to account for human stupidity.

 

[DarkDoom3000]

^ YES. They closed down fangames before. As someone mentioned, a pokemon MMO.

Regardless of what nintendo actually does Most companies don't want you using their assets. Im using a bunch of FF8 music and the PS3 trophy noise. They don't want me using thoes assets (especially in a pokemon fangame) but I'm doing it anyway. Im giving them credit. and getting no profit.

If im giving them full credit, and im not making money- I could care less what the original creator thinks.
Until i get a cease and desist. :p

 

[Ravecat]

Your carelessness does not a legal argument make.

 

[Pablo49]

Unfortunately my wireless connection was going in and out last night, and I wasn't sure if my post ever posted, it appears it didn't. How annoying.

It seems obvious that Nintendo does care, to some extent. They have shut down games before, or at least game singular, I do know of one specifically. I think it's mainly that is isn't worth their time/money tracking down all the little fangames everywhere. They know it's there and they can't do too much to stop it. And going off of what Alistair said, it would depend on if their resources are being used.

It seems everyone is on the same page about asking credit though. I think the people who demand credit strongly are fairly self-centered and really makes me want to find an alternate source for the art in question. I don't want to support someone who forgets who's shoulders they are standing on. I always credit people when they suggest but do not require credit, though. And part of that is I respect the way they handle credit.

Also, I've always thought of those grey area things, like the Gen IV & V, more like rips than original art. I think the same rule of thumb for credit applies. Unless of course it is edited to change it's look, etc.

If im giving them full credit, and im not making money- I could care less what the original creator thinks.

DarkDoom, that was the exact logic that made me want to bring up this topic originally.

 

[Maruno]

It's hard to form a solid stance in this debate, because so much of it revolves around honour and what's "right".

It's rude to steal a graphic someone has worked on by themselves in their free time for their own game. I suspect pretty much everyone feels this way, and I think it's mostly because we can relate more to a single person drawing in their free time for the fun of it than to a faceless artist who was paid to do his job. Plus, there's the fandom, which will cause an uproar about theft un-agreed use of fan graphics.

In contrast, I don't think many people have issues with using Game Freak's graphics. Why? Well, Nintendo is a huge company who tolerate fangames as long as they don't infringe on Nintendo's business (or give someone else business, i.e. piracy). Nintendo of course are well within their rights to forbid everyone from using graphics from their games, but thus far they haven't. And I think that's nice of them.

On the other hand, let's look at the legality of the thing. Using Nintendo's graphics is illegal, albeit a form of petty theft in the grand scheme of things. However, taking a fan's graphics is in no way illegal, as they've been posted online under no specific license (the words "please do not steal" don't really cut it). I just thought I'd mention that.

It's basically about where you are in the grand scheme. Nintendo tower way above and barely notice the little people, while the little people (us) notice each other very well. It's all about keeping face with your peers, and in this case, it's about not using other little people's work without their permission. Using Nintendo's stuff doesn't feel as bad, because they're so high up we can't connect to them (i.e. it's implied consent unless otherwise noted).

For the record, I'm with the majority: using Nintendo's stuff is fine (as long as they don't specifically forbid it), but using other fans' stuff without permission isn't. As I said, it's all about honour.

^ YES. They closed down fangames before. As someone mentioned, a pokemon MMO.

It strikes me that the MMO makers were probably wanting funds to keep it going, which falls under the category of profit. I'm not at all surprised Nintendo wanted them to cut it out.

If im giving them full credit, and im not making money- I could care less what the original creator thinks.

No, no you couldn't. I care too much about the English language to let that pass.