[Challenge] The Monotype Challenge v8, Tera Edition

Kostucha said:
Typically when other challenges disallow the use of some legendaries, they use this list https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Battle_Tree#Restrictions so I would suggest just using that. Galar didn't have a battle facility that would ban the use of certain pokemon so I propose adding Melmetal and Zarude to the banned list (BST of 600) in addition to what you already have
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I'm already aware of this list, but it has some issues. Most notably, it bans literally every Mythical without concern for balance. Nintendo probably did this because they're unobtainable through normal gameplay in their games, but this challenge also extends to romhacks and fangames that may allow Mythicals to be caught, even before the postgame. I'd like to give these Mythicals a similar treatment to the Battle Facility banlist, and let the non-broken ones through. (Also, the Battle Tree list bans Cosmog and Cosmoem, which have the dubious honor of being the two weakest Pokemon in the series, because they're the pre-evos of the box legends.)

I've spent some time taking a look at the Smogon Ubers list for Mythicals to ban/allow as another starting point, but it does take into account a different metagame that Single-player Pokemon doesn't have. FWIW, Melmetal is OU and Zarude is UU.

Deoxys, Darkrai, Genesect, and Marshadow have been consistently in Ubers since their debuts, making them somewhat easy inclusions. Shaymin's Sky Forme has also been consistently in Ubers, but its Land Forme has never been in it, so I'm considering a ban on Sky Forme but not Land Forme. (Sky Forme would also be problematic for mono-Flying runs because it reverts to Land Forme at night, and would be unusable at certain times of day because of RTC stuff.)

Mew has been an Uber in the first five gens, but not since. I'm leaning towards banning it because its "learn all TMs" gimmick will allow a lot of moves that most Psychic-types can't learn and go against the spirit of a mono-Psychic challenge.

Celebi has been an Uber in Gen 2 but has rapidly declined since, making it a likely exclusion from the ban list. Manaphy is an Uber in Gen 4 and 5, but OU in every generation afterward. I'm leaning towards allowing it. Magearna is an Uber in Gen 8 because of the lack of Megas and Z-Moves that can counter it, but most romhacks and fangames that allow it to be caught before the postgame will include them, so I'm considering allowing it as well.
 
Nah, it's completely fine. It doesn't take up more than one screen on my desktop and it's interesting to read. Really, the only things people really should be putting in a spoiler are their team movesets, since those take up a lot of space if they have a full team.
 
Explorer of Time said:
some smogon nonsense
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Sorry, but using smogon tier lists to value whether a pokemon should be allowed for in-game challenges sounds like the dumbest idea ever, PvE =/= PvP. It really is best to just use the battle tree list, those mythicals are absolutely busted in-game. Like sure, Cosmog/Cosmoem are very weak and the inclusion makes little sense but no one is going to use them anyway.
 
Some of them are completely busted, yes, but others aren't. Celebi, with its seven weaknesses and jack-of-all-trades stats, is not exactly better than Garchomp, which has better typing, better stat distribution, the same BST, and has been allowed in every single incarnation of this thread. And because they're mythicals, they'd only be available before the postgame in romhacks and fangames, which often have a higher level of difficulty that makes competitive battling (and thus Smogon) kinda sorta relevant.

That being said, after doing some more research, determining which ones are busted is going to be more work than I thought, and I plan to mostly stick to the Battle Tree list for now. (minus Phione and Cosmog/Cosmoem since they're useless and Keldeo since it's basically on-par with the other Swords of Justice that aren't on the list)
 
Ultimate Normal Mono-type Challenge

Pokémon Blue

Rainbow Badge

Spoiler:


Poohbea's Party

Spoiler:
 
The difference is that Garchomp and other pseudo legendaries start off weak and take a lot of effort to train. Typically they reach full potential just before the league. Also they don't cover many types, you mostly get dragon, maybe flying, and a select few types for each gen.
It's a complete opposite with mythicals - completely busted from the moment you get them and you can get the very early depending on the rom hack. They also cover a wide variety of types.

In the Celebi example you provided, sure, it's probably not better than a Garchomp, but Garchomp is avaiable only for two - already easy - monotypes. On the other side you have two types that are usually starved for any good type coverage. It would be more sensible to compare Celebi to Exeggutor and it outclasses it in most ways.

Also consider that any mythicals part of the regional dex fall under Trading and Hacking rule 6 - allowing people playing base games to hack them in freely. Please just stick to the Battle tree list, it just opens a pandora's box that will only be a massive nightmare to deal with later, it's not worth it.
 
Kostucha said:
The difference is that Garchomp and other pseudo legendaries start off weak and take a lot of effort to train. Typically they reach full potential just before the league. Also they don't cover many types, you mostly get dragon, maybe flying, and a select few types for each gen.
It's a complete opposite with mythicals - completely busted from the moment you get them and you can get the very early depending on the rom hack. They also cover a wide variety of types.

In the Celebi example you provided, sure, it's probably not better than a Garchomp, but Garchomp is avaiable only for two - already easy - monotypes. On the other side you have two types that are usually starved for any good type coverage. It would be more sensible to compare Celebi to Exeggutor and it outclasses it in most ways.
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You have a point there. I kinda assumed that most romhacks would wait until very late in the game to allow any Mythicals to be caught, like Radical Red and Unbound do. If I'm just wrong on that part, then yeah, the Battle Tree list it is.


Kostucha said:
Also consider that any mythicals part of the regional dex fall under Trading and Hacking rule 6 - allowing people playing base games to hack them in freely. Please just stick to the Battle tree list, it just opens a pandora's box that will only be a massive nightmare to deal with later, it's not worth it.
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Aannnnd that's a loophole carried over from the last thread that needs to be closed before the updated Battle Tree list is reimplemented. Not intentional at all. I've already edited Rule 6 to close it preemptively.
 
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Alright, here's the preliminary updated version of the Battle Tree banlist:

Mewtwo, Mew, Ho-Oh, Lugia, Celebi, Latios, Latias, Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Jirachi, Deoxys, Dialga, Palkia, Heatran, Giratina, Cresselia, Manaphy, Darkrai, Shaymin, Arceus, Reshiram, Zekrom, Landorus, Kyurem, Meloetta, Genesect, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde (50% Forme and Complete Forme), Diancie, Hoopa, Volcanion, Solgaleo, Lunala, Necrozma, Magearna, Marshadow, Zeraora, Melmetal, Zacian, Zamazenta, Eternatus, Calyrex (Ice/Shadow Rider), Zarude, Koraidon, Miraidon, Fakemon with a BST of 600 or higher that are part of the No Eggs Discovered Egg Group.


Proposed Pokemon to remove from the Battle Tree List: Phione, Keldeo, Zygarde 10% Forme, Cosmog, and Cosmoem.

Cosmog and Cosmoem are useless, Zygarde 10% Forme is an outright weaker version of Zygarde that's balanced with other Pokemon, Phione's weak and arguably isn't a mythical at all since you can hatch an infinite number of them, and Keldeo is extremely mechanically similar to the other Swords of Justice, and should be allowed or banned alongside the other three. Plus, most romhacks will treat them as a set and have them available at similar times.


Proposed Legendaries to add to the Battle Tree list: Latios, Latias, Cresselia, Heatran, Landorus, Melmetal, Zacian, Zamazenta, Eternatus, Calyrex (Ice/Shadow Rider), Zarude, Koraidon, Miraidon, Fakemon with a BST of 600 or higher that are part of the No Eggs Discovered Egg Group.

All have a BST of 600 or higher. Latios or Latias are gifted in the midgame of ORAS and can be very game-breaking if used, Landorus is a notoriously strong Pokemon, Heatran is one of the best Fire-types in the series, and Cresselia isn't the best but setting the BST cap at 600 for Legends/Mythicals/etc. still provides a consistent and easy-to-understand line for allowing and disallowing fakemon and newly-released Legendaries. The rest are self-explanatory since they were released after Gen VII.



Another pair of possible restrictions on Legendaries I've been thinking of:

1: Require the player to have already have trained a Pokemon of the Legendary's level before using the legendary, to stop them from rushing off to capture, say, their type's Legendary Beast in Johto right after the Burned Tower.

2: Limit the player to one Legendary in their party, for games that have a lot of available Legendaries of one type.
 
The Landorus and Cresselia exclusion feels like you're still looking at VGC/smogon usage lists :P (please stop). Battle tree list + 600+ BST legends make a nice and proper list already with clear rules of what counts. Don't add/remove pokemon based on your personal bias.

I feel like the second option would just be best in general. One legendary is already more than you need (I would never use them personally anyway)
 
Kostucha said:
The Landorus and Cresselia exclusion feels like you're still looking at VGC/smogon usage lists :P (please stop). Battle tree list + 600+ BST legends make a nice and proper list already with clear rules of what counts. Don't add/remove pokemon based on your personal bias.

I feel like the second option would just be best in general. One legendary is already more than you need (I would never use them personally anyway)
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Landorus and Cresselia do have 600 BST (even though the other two in Landorus's trio don't), but I see your point. I'll wait around a week in case other people have feedback, and, if nothing changes, update the Standard Mode rules to allow one Legendary with less than 600 BST and keep all the 600+ BST legends/mythicals banned.

EDIT: Wait, Cresselia got a BST decrease in Gen IX, somehow. I see what you meant and I'll make a special note regarding its BST in different games.
 
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Fire Ultimate
Blue / Third and Final Entry

That...Elite Four was painful. But first, everything up to the Elite Four.

First, I beat Koga's gym as soon as I could, got a Snorlax for Surf, caught a Spearow for Fly, and then went over to Pallet Town and surfed down to Cinnbar. There, in the Mansion, I picked up Ponyta...and spent two hours searching for Magmar before finally catching it. 10% chance pfft

After that, a lot of training. I pushed everything to level 40, then took on every trainer in Blaine's gym before taking him down. Every trainer in Silph Co before taking Giovanni down. Every trainer in Sabrina's gym before taking her down. None of them were really hard.

Giovanni's gym was the same, and I honestly thought this was going to be hard, but it really wasn't. I had Dig, and a lot of FIre moves, so I was doing quite the bit of special damage. One move I've sort of found new appreciation for is Fire Spin, at least in Gen 1 where the available moves are limited. The fact that it is basically Fire Wrap is nice, because I tend to do more damage with it against some teams than using Flamethrower, simply because of the multi-turn effect. Having FIre Blast is also nice.

The big challenge of this run? Lance's Gyarados (and Dragonite) as well Rival's Blastoise. Lorelei was just a lot of spamming Fire moves. Bruno was spamming Psychic (I had taught to Magmar) and so was Agatha. It took until early 50s for Magmar to get through Agatha fairly easily. My team ended up finally netting the win only after most were over L50.

Lance's Gyarados was eventually taken down by Rapidash using Stomp and getting a lot of flinches. I had as many runs that didn't get flinches as I did getting through with flinches, so having one run where it was flinch-central was fine by me. Dragonite was only easily taken down by the insistance on using Barrier while my Charizard spammed crit-Slashes.

The battle against the Champion was interesting. I only made it there twice - the very first time when I got super lucky to make ti that far, and the final winning run. Both times I made it to the Blastoise, but Hydro Pump stinks with a Fire team. Flareon made it through the first three all by item simply due to a combination of Sand-Attack and Body Slam, which is no easy feat because the Pidgeot is hard to survive. Arcanine took it down, but a few uses of Stomp later, both it and Exeggutor are down. Blastoise takes a couple of Stomps, and then a couple of Slashes, and a Full Restore, than a few more Slashes, and finally, I just use a single Quick Attack and it crits and down it goes.

After three days of slowly training throughout each day, I was happy to win this one. I probably could have had an easier E4 by getting all my team to 55, but I didn't really think that was super necessary. Hey, I learned something new about FIre Spin and Confuse Ray being actually decent...well, in Gen 1, at least.

Alright, on to Gen 2!

Elite Four Team:
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Ultimate Normal Mono-type Challenge

Pokémon Blue

Marsh Badge + Soul Badge + Volcano Badge + Earth Badge + Rival Battle + Elite Four.
Spoiler:
 
No, I haven't beaten the Elite Four or Champion yet, sorry, I should've said that in my previous post. I am using the Elite Four to level my Pokémon instead of using Victory Road, they are in the mid 40s.
 
All right, here are the proposed new Legendary rules for Standard Mode. I'll implement these on Wednesday, unless anyone has any objections or corrections. (I know that no official Legendary has Truant as its ability, but I'm trying to cover potential fakemon that might have it.)

  1. You may not use any Legendary Pokémon with a base stat total of 600 or higher in trainer battles, unless that Pokémon has Slow Start or Truant as its ability. If a Legendary Pokémon has multiple forms, only those forms with a base stat total equal to or above 600 are prohibited. For official Pokémon, this includes: Mewtwo, Mew, Ho-Oh, Lugia, Celebi, Latios, Latias, Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Jirachi, Deoxys, Dialga, Palkia, Heatran, Giratina, Cresselia (If not using its Gen IX stats), Manaphy, Darkrai, Shaymin, Arceus, Reshiram, Zekrom, Landorus, Kyurem, Meloetta, Genesect, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde 50% Forme, Zygarde Complete Forme, Diancie, Hoopa, Volcanion, Solgaleo, Lunala, Necrozma, Magearna, Marshadow, Zeraora, Melmetal, Zacian, Zamazenta, Eternatus, Ice Rider Calyrex, Shadow Rider Calyrex, Zarude, Koraidon, and Miraidon. Any Legendary Fakemon with a base stat total of 600+ is also prohibited (unless it has one of the two handicap abilities), as are any official Legendaries not listed here that have had their base stat total or ability modified to be in breach of this rule.
  2. You may not use more than one Legendary Pokémon in your team at any one time.
  3. If you are playing a game or romhack where NPC trainers that you battle would be in violation of either of the above rules, to keep a level playing field, you may use up to as many Legendaries as they do, and/or Legendaries that have a base stat total of up to that of their highest-BST Legendary. This rule takes effect after the boss battle (Gym Leader, Champion, Team Leader, etc.) before the trainer that has rule-breaking Legendaries.
  4. A Pokémon is considered to be Legendary under these rules if it is obtained only through limited static encounters, cannot be bred, and has a base stat total of 570 or higher. For the sake of simplicity, any mention of Legendaries in these rules also includes Ultra Beasts and Mythicals that fit these criteria. These Pokémon may still be caught for out-of-battle purposes.

Gen 1 Specific Rules: If playing Standard Mode of a Gen 1 game, or a romhack or fangame that uses the Special stat instead of Special Attack and Special Defense, Legendary Pokémon with a base stat total of 500 or higher are prohibited instead of those with a base stat total of 600 or higher, and Legendary Pokémon are defined by having a base stat total of 475 or higher instead of 570 or higher.
 
Ultimate Fire Run
Gold / #1 / The First Four Gyms

In this post (i.e., TL;DR)
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The full read:
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My team:
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Finished up the Water monotype in Platinum that I started like half a year ago. It's the easiest type so it mostly went without issues, especially once Gyarados picked up Dragon Dance.

Hall of Fame:
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Team:
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Gonna tackle Normal type next
 
Ultimate Fire Run
Gold / #2 / The Second Four Gyms and Elite Four Round 1

In this post (i.e., TL;DR)
Spoiler:


The full read:
Spoiler:


Team Stats:
Spoiler:
 
Ultimate Normal Mono-type Challenge

Pokémon Blue

Elite Four Battle
Spoiler:


Poohbea's Party
Spoiler:

Ultimate Normal Mono-type Challenge: Pokémon Blue-Finished
 
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