The Problem With OC

[Ineffable~]

I think the whole "post and go" thing actually well describes the difference between debate and discussion. In a discussion you post what you think of it and then you're done. Maybe someone will reply to it saying "oh well that's interesting my idea was this:" but mostly you don't have to think about the thread after that. Whereas in a debate you're more likely to constantly check the thread and keep debating until one of three things happen:
1.) The argument is concluded because an agreement has been come to.
2.) You get a little too frustrated or bored with it.
3.) The whole thing gets too heated and is forcibly stopped.

In OVP, rarely ever do people directly reply to each other's posts. They simply answer the question straight out without much extra comment. Non-debate OC discussions should be more intricate but still with less interaction than in debates.

EDIT: Lol nvm that was wrong. I shouldn't post when I have a headache.

 

[Oryx]

I think the only problem is that a lot of members make discussion threads into debate threads, and there's a very, very fine line between a discussion and a debate that even I don't really understand. I was sitting here thinking "Well, if we do split the debates into a sub-forum, what kinds of threads will be left behind?" Because then I'd just think the main Other Chat forum would blur the lines even more than they already are with the difference between it and the Other Voting Polls forum.

I disagree with the analysis that Ineffable gave to this, actually. If you're in a discussion in real life, you don't just say your opinion on a topic to someone and then walk away, so it shouldn't mean something similar on the internet. A discussion to me is basically, as one of the definitions of it is put, a conversation. When I think of discussions, I think of the way that people post in club threads, but about various topics - none of them are angry at each other (most of the time), they're just discussing various angles of a topic, building on each other, disagreeing sometimes, etc.

It is a fine line but I believe that stuff such as "Celebrity Mishaps", "Woman Sues Cap'n Crunch", "9-year-old daughter designated driver", "Every Day I'm Shuffling", "Harry Potter Actor...", "Iowa Couple...", "Time Travel", "Samsung Seeks...", "11-year-old banned...", "iPods in Class", "Police called over...", "Pet Discussion", "Bull Sharks...", "Food Thread", and "That thing..." would all stay in the main forum, which, as 15 of the 41 threads on the first page, would mean that the majority would go into the Debates subforum, but it wouldn't be split entirely unevenly. There are some I was iffy about, but my criteria was "knowing PC, will this turn into something heated?" That was why I was more tempted to put the LGBT issues into Discussions than Debates - those threads, while heavy, tend to not get heated whatsoever because everyone is pretty much on one side of the discussion agreeing with each other.

Imo, it would obviously require a bit more moderating because a discussion could become a debate, but Live has always been on top of that and since he said he did ask for help, if there was another mod I'm sure they'd be on top of it too. So if something is posted in the discussion forum and it starts to get heated, it could easily be moved into the debate subforum and they could continue.

 

[Livewire]

A rename like that would probably lead to further confusion and would not help the forum's organisation all that much, in my opinion. It already has two major, vastly different types of discussions that don't mix, and because of that, prefixes are not a solution.

All you would end up with is a renamed forum.

How hard is it to get? You have debates, and you have discussions. It's pretty self-explanatory.

The only appropriate thing to do in my mind is to filter out all the heated discussions.

Other Chat is a forum that has become somewhere where it's hard for new members to really get into. Every thread seems to go from a discussion to a small debate or a large-scale debate. Some people just like discussions without it turning into a debate. So a solution to that would be to filter the debates into a sub-forum, and leave behind the remains of a free-for-all forum that Other Chat has traditionally been and focus on keeping those threads on their own, without becoming a debate.

Right now, it seems like Other Chat is pretty much a Debates & Discussions forum, focusing on news and politics and religion and the like, with debates being the primary thread type. The atmosphere of the forum is really tense when I go there, I find, which discourages most members from posting.

This fixes the problem, pretty much. Put the heated discussions in it's own spot. However, the people who constantly stir up the debates, thus causing the atmosphere, just won't up and go away.

 

[Melody]

What Live said holds true. Discussions that get escalated or heated can be warned and moved to Debates subforum too if people get passionate about it.

Additionally, there can be a different ruleset for the debates sub-forum which makes it easier for Live to more quickly act on and discourage trolling or stubborn argumentative folks who clog the debates up until it ignites up like so much tinder.

 

[Nick]

This fixes the problem, pretty much.Put the heated discussions in it's own spot. However, the people who constantly stir up the debates, thus causing the atmosphere, just won't up and go away.

Just make it so that debates won't be permitted to be the result of an innocent discussion thread, unless circumstances provide the excuse for one. Don't want to up and go away? Have an infraction for breaking a new rule.

 

[Livewire]

Just make it so that debates won't be permitted to be the result of an innocent discussion thread, unless circumstances provide the excuse for one. Don't want to up and go away? Have an infraction for breaking a new rule.

Thus leading to more whiny CQ&F threads about how all I do is censor others' opinions and I "pick on" certain people? I like that idea, but think of how people would interpret that - "he infracted me in Other Chat? for debating? Preposterous, this is OC!" "So I guess you can only debate certain things, as long as you like it, wtf is up with that" etc. Thus adding to my headache.

But If Hstaff backs that, I'm game. If the answer is a bigger crackdown, then I'm game. But I need to know that you've got me when that thread here about how horrible I am shows up.

 

[Melody]

Well it's either that or move a discussion that got heated to the debate forum, and give a warning to everyone.

The Debate forum would have stricter rules that would logically support infractions quickly.

EDIT: Let's not try to make Live seem tougher than he has to be. That only boosts the intimidation factor that OC has, and we're trying to DIMINISH IT.

 

[Nick]

Thus leading to more whiny CQ&F threads about how all I do is censor others' opinions and I "pick on" certain people? I like that idea, but think of how people would interpret that - "he infracted me in Other Chat? for debating? Preposterous, this is OC!"

But If Hstaff backs that, I'm game. But I need to know that you've got me when that thread here about how horrible I am shows up.

If you are getting complaints about getting an infraction for them essentially disturbing a discussion, then you can kindly point out the direction to the debate forum, the higher staff, and the log out button, because they shouldn't be on a discussion forum if they're reacting that way. Highly inappropriate, and highly discouraging to know that there are people who are that immature that they complain to such an extent of getting an infraction. Their ignorance of the rules and how things are done within a forum of someone's jurisdiction is enough to display how preposterous their argument is. Every single post made on PC is subject to staff moderation. They agreed to that when they registered. No,… no. They'll just have to suck it up. If you don't want that kind of business happening in the discussion threads, then sometimes things like that are necessary.

 

[Livewire]

Well it's either that or move a discussion that got heated to the debate forum, and give a warning to everyone.

The Debate forum would have stricter rules that would logically support infractions quickly.

EDIT: Let's not try to make Live seem tougher than he has to be. That only boosts the intimidation factor that OC has, and we're trying to DIMINISH IT.

The debate forum would obviously require a shorter leash, I agree.

And yes, making me out to be the mean OC moderator wouldn't exactly make things better.

 

[Oryx]

One of the great upsides to this is that you can probably fairly easily be seen as not-so-strict outside of debates because it won't need as much bad-cop moderating :3 That's why the debates are good as a sub-forum; on the surface it's nice to see a forum that's open and easy to get into, and then people only go to look if they WANT to debate, not because they tried to make a lighthearted post in a heavy thread and got into one on accident or something, lol.

 

[Ineffable~]

One of the great upsides to this is that you can probably fairly easily be seen as not-so-strict outside of debates because it won't need as much bad-cop moderating :3 That's why the debates are good as a sub-forum; on the surface it's nice to see a forum that's open and easy to get into, and then people only go to look if they WANT to debate, not because they tried to make a lighthearted post in a heavy thread and got into one on accident or something, lol.

I think I get this. It's like . . . people who have seen him at work in both subforums will see both sides of him and think "oh you know he's not so bad. I just realised his seriousness has a purpose".
I mean, as long as these people understand why Debates would need a tighter grip on it. >_>

 

[Livewire]

One of the great upsides to this is that you can probably fairly easily be seen as not-so-strict outside of debates because it won't need as much bad-cop moderating :3 That's why the debates are good as a sub-forum; on the surface it's nice to see a forum that's open and easy to get into, and then people only go to look if they WANT to debate, not because they tried to make a lighthearted post in a heavy thread and got into one on accident or something, lol.

This too. Being able to kick back and post casually there would be amazing. Separating the nice from the not-so-nice would really be a godsend.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

I have no problem with this. We can have a few subforums for the types of threads that dominate OC.

 

[Oryx]

Sure, we could spend more time acting like an other forum than a Pokémon forum.

But I don't think we need that kind of dedication.

If we added one or two subforums to OC, Pokemon-related forums would still overshadow other-related forums by nearly 10. Meanwhile, the people who do enjoy OC would appreciate the re-organization into a format that makes it easier to navigate, more fun to post in, more welcoming to new members, and generally less confusing.

The actual dedication on the part of people other than Live would just be to actually create the forum, right? I'm not sure what you mean by not needing that kind of dedication.

 

[Zet]

I don't see the point in re-organizing OC, it's already simple to navigate.

 

[Melody]

Zet, Didn't I just make the same argument before and get eaten alive by page 2?

Seriously, see for yourself. And one extra subforum for more heated topics wouldn't hurt, as it could be more strictly moderated and rules more strictly enforced there without threatening the welcoming atmosphere of OC as a whole. It's like having the courtyard where moderators don't need to do much and having the 'Roman Forum' where the Mod's word is Law and to defy it is death. XD

People who don't like the idea of 'death on defiance' can steer clear of that section and never worry about it.

 

[Netto Azure]

Sure, we could spend more time acting like an other forum than a Pokémon forum.

But I don't think we need that kind of dedication.

What do you mean by that?

People who like Pokemon already go to the Pokemon side of PC. Plus all the "Other" threads are already in the bottom half of the page. It's not as if those who go to PC for Pokemon related stuff will all of a sudden focus on going on Other Chat just because of a reorganization. xD

And mods for each section are kinda independent already, so it's not as if we're taking Pokemon mods and putting them to the Other Forums to "shift" dedication. xP

 

[Livewire]

Sure, we could spend more time acting like an other forum than a Pokémon forum.

But I don't think we need that kind of dedication.

So because it's not about Pokemon, we shouldn't care about fixing a genuine problem, and/or non Pokemon sections? That's ridiculous and something an Admin really shouldn't say. Why even have other non-pokemon sections in the first place, then? Fixing some problems with the section isn't dedication, it's basic forum maintenance, something we'd do with any section. Whether it's Pokemon or not is entirely irrelevant.

How about you actually come up with an argument against changing OC that doesn't boil down to "No, I don't want to"

 

[Abnegation]

Sure, we could spend more time acting like an other forum than a Pokémon forum.

But I don't think we need that kind of dedication.

Eh, I wouldn't say that. At all. Me, and many other members come here for anything but the Pokemon sections. So I wouldn't agree that the dedication is being put in the wrong place. Otherwise, you have about 16 or 17 mods you may as well fire, since they don't work on Pokemon related sections. Not to mention 5 or 6 of the higher staff got promoted from non-pokemon related sections, so they too don't exactly have the closest connection with Pokemon related sections.

The reason we're focusing on Other Chat is because clearly people feel here needs to be some work put into bringing it up to date, the Pokemon forums don't need to the same work by the looks of it. So unless you had some other meaning, I can't agree that there's no point in putting dedication into non-pokemon related sections, they're just as important.

 

[Yoshikkko]

I don't know I actually like the idea. It would clear it up and put everything on its place a bit more. And I do think that OC is like any other section at PC, It's GOOD that there is one which covers different things than Pokémon and I find it equally important.