The Rainbow Connection [LGBTS Club]

[Shining Raichu]

Well now! Certainly a lot of activity while I was gone lol - but eesh why was such a big deal made out of my simple reply? :S

I guess I'll have to respond lol

Who says they're a "bigot?" If they never verbally express their views nor show any physical hatred or actions of discrimination towards the Gay Community then it's just simply a strong belief. I said that the hypothetical friend had a SECRET hate for LGBT, but that doesn't mean they would hate you as a person, or your choice to come out. What if all they hated was the over-sexualization of it all because of personal beliefs? For example, the whole "HEY MAN-NIPPLE BANNER! A hot celeb is available!" that you did?

Firstly, the banner was for a laugh... then noone did :P /feels stupid

Any hatred for a group of people, expressed or unexpressed, makes somebody a bigot in my eyes. I, for instance, am bigotted against bigots. If I were to be friends with somebody it is a must that they be cool with the LGBT thing because regardless of whether they ever acted upon their hate verbally or otherwise, it would be impossible to be around them knowing they were thinking those thoughts about an intrinsic aspect of who I am.

Would you be willing to cut that out when you're around them, or do you still hold true the "I am myself and no one's going to restrict me. They should love all of me" view and drop them?

For the above-stated reasons, this is exactly why I would drop them and hold true to my views. A friend is somebody around whom you shouldn't have to censor yourself. If I had to watch how I acted for fear of offending them with my homosexuality, then they're not somebody I would ever be comfortable around.

I dunno.. I just feel that there's too much hate going on. Just because they're not in the whole LGBT thing doesn't mean that LGBT's should hate them and call them names for not supporting them. Especially if those said people never did anything to harm the LGBT community- and it's just personal views that wouldn't get voiced.

Yes, those poor bigots, I do feel for them. Perhaps somebody should create a support group? If people are going to be touchy about being called bigots then maybe they should stop being bigots lol

-----

Would it make me a bigot if I was against black people being able to marry, and I was an avid supporter of taking away black rights (Reguardless of how I treated black people or whether or not there was hatred)?

I would say yes. Those are "opinions" that seek to usurp rights from others based of skin color, race, ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation, even though it may not be particularly "hateful".

Essentially this! -ty- and I are of one mind here :).

-----

anyway yes hello :3c

Hello there and welcome! Did you wish to join the group?

 

[Melody]

Oh wow SR. ^5 to you. :D
I feel the same. You summed it up perfectly. There's no room for bigotry of any degree.

If you can't tolerate someone, then you've got no right to expect to be tolerated.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

Any hatred for a group of people, expressed or unexpressed, makes somebody a bigot in my eyes. I, for instance, am bigotted against bigots. If I were to be friends with somebody it is a must that they be cool with the LGBT thing because regardless of whether they ever acted upon their hate verbally or otherwise, it would be impossible to be around them knowing they were thinking those thoughts about an intrinsic aspect of who I am.

I understand why you would feel that way, but you are wrongfully implying that anybody that holds a view on LGBT issues contrary to yours is a bigot.

 

[Ineffable~]

I understand why you would feel that way, but you are wrongfully implying that anybody that holds a view on LGBT issues contrary to yours is a bigot.

It's not about their opinion being different from his--it's about them being hateful. For example (totally made up quotes).

Shining Raichu: "I love gay people. We are very proud and not at all flamboyant. We are only expressing ourselves. There is nothing wrong with that."

Person 1: "I don't really mind gay people, I just really think they're too flamboyant and should chill." ( = not a bigot)

Person 2: "Yeah, I kind of hate gay people. :/" ( = bigot)


Person 2 is not fair-minded. He has a negative opinion particularly of gay people and doesn't have a good reason for it--it's just because they're gay. This makes him a bigot.
Person 1, on the other hand, is not a bigot, although he happens to disagree with Chuu. Person 1 simply sees gays in a different light than Chuu does. He doesn't hate them, though, so he is not a bigot.

 

[Esper]

I feel like I should amend my response to Kura's question.

If someone had a hatred of the GLBT community because of its politics or pride events or some other outward expression like that then I could understand that to a degree. It definitely has a certain face it puts forward which doesn't represent everyone equally and probably bothers a lot of people. They might not appreciate some in-your-face man-nipples or whatever and that's valid, but I would definitely wonder if they had some kind of underlying hatred of queer people themselves or they were only okay with certain kinds of queer people (like only celibate ones or whatnot). I think it's also valid for me to wonder this and to ask someone to clarify their antagonism to queer groups.

I think the term "bigot" gets used a little too often, but only a little. It's more often people doing or saying bigoted things than just being all-around bigots. Because you have to do something bigoted or you aren't a bigot. So I can agree with Kura and Freaky on that issue in principle. I just can't understand how someone could have a deep hatred and not express it or have it influence their actions or decisions. I mean, if they can then good on them for keeping it in check.

 

[Taemin]

In my mind there's a difference between people who go out about their lives and just ignore the LGBT community, and the people who outright hate against it. There are people who don't totally agree with the lifestyles, so they just pay it no mind. They don't care for it, but to me they're not bigots. Bigots are the people who show an active hate or dislike, or preach the bible to you by yelling it at your face, and then saying that you're going to burn in hell. Those types of people, and the people who just ignore the LGBT community are totally separate to me.

I've known some people who call both groups of people bigots, but eh..

 

[-ty-]

I wish there was a different word to use than bigot. How about 'homophobe' which fears/hates gay people? But I don't think that is necessarily satisfactory either to reflect discrimination - it's more of a fear.

Example 1: A person believes that women should not be able to vote.

Example 2: A person believes that same-sex individuals should not be able to marry.

Example 2 is not necessarily fearful or hateful of gay people, so he/she would not be a homophobe purely based off this view. Example 1 emulates a person who could be defined as sexist/misogynist ( reflecting or exhibiting hatred, dislike, mistrust, or mistreatment of women.) The person in example 1 does not trust women and therefore treats them differently. So example 1 and 2 are about at the same degree of intolerance/discrimination, but only one has a word that can reflect that discrimination. I wish there was a word that was similar to misogynist, anti-semite, racist, or any other specific word that emulates "reflecting or exhibiting hatred, dislike, mistrust, or mistreatment of" a specific group.

If there were such a word, it would encompass those who are against gay rights including marriage. What about...sexualitist or gayist? lol

 

[-Jared-]

Okay. Here is the Mirriam Webster definition of "bigot"

bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

So, someone who says "Nah, I don't think gays should be able to get married, but whatever." nonchalantly, wouldn't be a bigot, because there is no hatred or obstinance in his attitude.

On the other hand, if that same person "Well of course those (expletive expletives) shouldn't be able to marry, it's would be (expletive) wrong!" THAT would be bigoted, as there is hatred and obstinance.

So really, bigotry is about the ATTITUDE of the person holding an opinion, NOT about the opinion itself, correct?
---
Also, on a lighter note, I had to laugh at something someone said on tumblr after Zanchary Quint's coming out:

"Wait, how can he be the father of my children now that he is gay?" xD While we gay men may now rejoice, lol, I can't help but feel bad for all his female fans. :<

 

[-ty-]

Okay. Here is the Mirriam Webster definition of "bigot"


So, someone who says "Nah, I don't think gays should be able to get married, but whatever." nonchalantly, wouldn't be a bigot, because there is no hatred or obstinance in his attitude.

On the other hand, if that same person "Well of course those (expletive expletives) shouldn't be able to marry, it's would be (expletive) wrong!" THAT would be bigoted, as there is hatred and obstinance.

So really, bigotry is about the ATTITUDE of the person holding an opinion, NOT about the opinion itself, correct?
---
Also, on a lighter note, I had to laugh at something someone said on tumblr after Zanchary Quint's coming out:

"Wait, how can he be the father of my children now that he is gay?" xD While we gay men may now rejoice, lol, I can't help but feel bad for all his female fans. :<

nah, who cares about Zachary, I just want Darren Criss to come out!!!!
But seriously, it was admirable that he came out in response to the recent deaths of gay teens. He felt responsible for not coming out and supporting young teens like Jamey Rodimeyer(sorry about the spelling).

 

[Kura]

Oh wow SR. ^5 to you. :D
I feel the same. You summed it up perfectly. There's no room for bigotry of any degree.

If you can't tolerate someone, then you've got no right to expect to be tolerated.

If you didn't notice, I said the same thing:

Basically..
I don't think hate should be tolerated, but IMO it shouldn't be rebutted with more hate.

However, the way you make yourself sound.. is like.. it can go the other way; "if you can't tolerate a bigot, you have no right to be expected to be tolerated." For me, if you try to approach differently, they may come around someday to try and respect you back. If they don't, at least you would be the better person.


I'm just surprised no one here would ask their hypothetical friend "Why do you hate the general LGBT community?" Because, at least for me, if they said something like "I dunno I just do" then you would obviously make a different conclusion than something like "I was attacked and molested when I was a child" or "it's in my faith and I want to do my best to follow my faith without hurting others, that's why I don't express any hate" or "I don't like how some Pride parades are becoming about sex instead of becoming about free love" or even "I hate it because I can't shake the feeling of being uncomfortable around it and I don't like the feeling, so I rather just avoid it."

I don't think you should write someone off as a bigot without understanding their underlying thoughts and reasons why they may hold an opinion.

Also

Firstly, the banner was for a laugh... then noone did /feels stupid

Haha, yeah I know.. I was just trying to pose my hypothetical question a bit further :3

 

[Melody]

Kura, I understand you probably didn't mean to ask a tinderbox question, but you did.

In my view, if they engaged in hatred first then they deserve to receive proper negative feedback. I'm not saying, nor advocating that people should be bigoted when it comes to dealing with bigots, I'm just saying that we should not tolerate bigoted behavior or interact with people who are bigoted. There are ways to "not tolerate" a bigot that don't involve acting like a bigot yourself, most of which involve just a simple ignoring or avoiding of the person in question, and leaving to them to their opinions, whenever reasonably possible.

Why should you be surprised? If someone expressed such an un-shiftable hatred for the community, then what good would asking them why do for the friendship? What good would it do to try to talk them out of it if they made it so clear that they will not discuss it or shift in their position...which is what the word "hate" often implies. I don't care if they ARE your best friend, there are certain ways that even they can cross a line, and that just happens to be one of them. Trying to reason with the person would often end very badly. I may be stubborn, but even I know when someone speaks that way and I know when it's just not worth fighting for. Especially not when it's someone you respect greatly as a friend who feels that way...it's just better if you cut your losses then and there, cleanly so that there is room for that person to grow up and admit they were wrong later in life.

 

[Kura]

Kura, I understand you probably didn't mean to ask a tinderbox question, but you did.

In my view, if they engaged in hatred first then they deserve to receive proper negative feedback. I'm not saying, nor advocating that people should be bigoted when it comes to dealing with bigots, I'm just saying that we should not tolerate bigoted behavior or interact with people who are bigoted. There are ways to "not tolerate" a bigot that don't involve acting like a bigot yourself, most of which involve just a simple ignoring or avoiding of the person in question, and leaving to them to their opinions, whenever reasonably possible.

Why should you be surprised? If someone expressed such an un-shiftable hatred for the community, then what good would asking them why do for the friendship? What good would it do to try to talk them out of it if they made it so clear that they will not discuss it or shift in their position...which is what the word "hate" often implies. I don't care if they ARE your best friend, there are certain ways that even they can cross a line, and that just happens to be one of them. Trying to reason with the person would often end very badly. I may be stubborn, but even I know when someone speaks that way and I know when it's just not worth fighting for. Especially not when it's someone you respect greatly as a friend who feels that way...it's just better if you cut your losses then and there, cleanly so that there is room for that person to grow up and admit they were wrong later in life.

I think I get what you're saying.. that you would just try your best to ignore them and not pay them any mind or respect. I get that perspective. I would do something different, but I understand you.

And.. why would I be surprised? I mean, they haven't really crossed any lines for telling you that view.. (maybe took a step towards a line but certainly not going over IMO) and if you're friends I know that (at least for me) I would try to hear out every side of the situation before making my decision. I don't know if it is wrong for someone to feel passionate about something if they aren't harming anyone else. I think perhaps you may be bias since you lean on one side of the story.. so maybe I can put it in these terms.

What if it wasn't you coming out as a LGTB person, but rather.. you telling them that you are a polygamist and a swinger. What if they don't agree with you because they hate polygamy for the fact that many cults support it, and because they feel that not everyone in the relationship can necessarily be valued? Or what if they feel that way because their views on sex are very traditional and intimate? Why would that be automatically wrong?
If they just said "I hate polygamy and swinging" you would really just say "Okay bye" and walk away? Is that really crossing any line?

You ask "what good would it do?" and I feel like it would do better good than just to leave it like that and drop it. I mean.. if they're your friend and they were honest enough to tell you their true feelings to hope you wouldn't judge them.. and you'd be so willing to just drop them like a brick without hearing them out, then wouldn't you actually really be in the wrong? "Trying to reason with someone would end badly" you say.. but you're already ending the relationship.. so how much worse could it get if you tried to reason? At least if you tried to reason with them, then they could empathize with the fact that you TRIED to keep the friendship. You're saying that the hypothetical friend should grow up, when you are the one unwilling to listen to their point of view, and in a way I find that to be a bit ironic. You want them to listen to you, but you don't want to attempt to hear them out. (It's not like they'd be the ones asking "why are you gay?" anyways.. so it would be up to you to ask them.) For that reason, I find that the question "WHY" would be very important. You don't have to fight them, you don't have to try to convince them, but at least if you know WHY they hating, you can make your decision to stay or leave a more appropriate and informed one.


But again, I understand what Raichu said about wanting to be yourself wholly around them, and if by the end of the day, you need to leave them in order to do that, then at least you did it in order to stay true to yourself. That's completely understandable.. and completely different than to ignore/ leave someone because you don't want to "deal with them" like you are implying.

 

[Melody]

Kura, stop muddying the waters. It's really clear cut, and if you understand my answer in the first situation what's the point in asking the second scenario, which is pretty much very irrelevant because those are very different topics which are not irreconcilable differences when it comes to a best friend type relationship.

It becomes irreconcilable when they profess to hate something that IS who YOU ARE. Like being LGBT. Not just a point of view like polygamy or 'swinging'. Seriously, that's a petty difference and is not nearly as bad as being someone who just came out to someone who hates what you are and cannot be convinced otherwise.

 

[Kura]

Kura, stop muddying the waters. It's really clear cut, and if you understand my answer in the first situation what's the point in asking the second scenario, which is pretty much very irrelevant because those are very different topics which are not irreconcilable differences when it comes to a best friend type relationship.

It becomes irreconcilable when they profess to hate something that IS who YOU ARE. Like being LGBT. Not just a point of view like polygamy or 'swinging'. Seriously, that's a petty difference and is not nearly as bad as being someone who just came out to someone who hates what you are and cannot be convinced otherwise.

It's not clear cut; the fact that we have different opposing opinion proves that. Furthermore, if it really was, you'd have the rest of the members here on this line of discussion that will agree on only one thing. This is not your blog, and as you can very well see, these differing opinions have indeed been voiced and debated instead of censored- Don't be Big Brother. The fact that we're getting so many different viewpoints is what actually makes it very interesting, and is also why I am inclined to ask you further to understand your insight on the matter. I actually think there is a big difference to hate what someone is and to hate what someone does.

I don't think they are very different topics at all, to be honest. Discrimination is discrimination, and sexuality doesn't just encompass LGBT.. so that's why I thought my posed situation was very valid. I also think you are brushing off polygamy and "swinging" ...as it is also people's identity just as much as being a transvestite, for example. So, may I ask, how is that connection petty?

As I stated in this post the question I posed earlier wasn't about suddenly hating YOU for coming out, but rather, a predisposition to the LGBT community, and an unwillingness to accept your PERSONAL choices.
Let's put it more personally; I have a cousin who's been in an open relationship who screws guys like as often as she feels, and so did her boyfriend (they are married now and happy <33.) Personally, TO ME I think that's outrageous and I would feel foul if I was in her shoes, because to me, sex is an intimate thing.. so knowing that your body can be so easily used by so many isn't particularly a pleasant thought to me. I wouldn't want that for myself, but who am I to say that the choice was WRONG for her? It isn't! But for ME, I hate (yes that word) when people use others for sexual gratification and nothing more, because I feel that there may be a possibility of hurting them (emotionally) or unaware-ily taking advantage of someone who's already in emotional distress (yes I think empty sex can hurt)- and I feel there is more to sex than physical satisfaction. EVEN STILL, that's none of my personal business; so really.. I don't care what people do as long as they don't directly involve me in it- which ultimately means.. I don't judge her for it. Yes she has told me stories about men she's done.. and do I like listening to them? Well not particularly.. in fact, I hate (yes the word) the fact that she does sometimes go into detail, because it kinda grosses me out. (I don't want to picture her naked.) I listen to it because I want to be there for her to have someone to talk to. After all this, she's my cousin and I love her very much. I don't have to agree with that choice of hers.. but I'm also not going to be present in her bedroom. I am not going to "be convinced otherwise" to accept her choice as a good one (it still may hurt someone,) but it works for her, it is very much part of who she is and I can still love her just the same. Maybe it is my wording, but to hate something, and to be against something, are different things. I also hope not to be judged for expressing my view on this.. and yes I know being lgbt is different than being in an open relationship, but this analogy is the best way I feel I can describe it.

If they can put away their personal feelings for the sake of knowing that their friend is a trustworthy and honest person and wanting to keep that friendship, I don't see why compromising can't be an option.

So you see, it's not so cookie-cutter. And the fact that you think I am "muddying the water" just for expressing my own view is actually quite offensive.

 

[Melody]

Well, moving right along...

Do you believe that some LGBTs take the stereotypes too far, or encourage them? Or do you simply believe that they're being themselves and are just getting discriminated against? Basically, when does it stop being "Confidence" and when does it start being "Ego" or "too much Pride"?

I for one don't generally judge, if someone wants to come out and cross dress, that's fine with me. If someone just wears makeup or something little, that's fine. Really, only that person's friends can know if that person is taking things too far...it may really be just their personality shining through and it's not for me to decide that unless I know them well enough.

As long as someone doesn't go about throwing it in other people's faces, it's not a real problem. I mean you don't just drop the "I'm <LGBT>" bomb around like candy, nor should you use it like a bomb to shock people for fun. What matters is that you don't intend to do that if you do happen to shock people if you do happen to admit it.

I don't mind if someone does make their preference somewhat obvious, though I oftentimes wish we had something that only other LGBTs get, so that we don't have to do things which might upset others who don't see the world the way we do. But, then again I'm kind of glad there's not, because I bet half the enjoyment comes from discovering that special person naturally.

 

[Esper]

Hey wait, I'm not ready to move on yet. I haven't gotten to get into this interesting discussion yet.

Okay, so, I didn't say the exact word "why" when I address the hypothetical situation, but I sort of interpreted Kura's scenario as one where my friend doesn't just say "I have a deep hatred of GLBT people," and then leave me wondering. I would assume that anyone with such feelings would immediately follow up with their reasons because I've never known of two people with a big disagreement like that where they didn't explain at least some of their reasons. Like I said previously, I'd be willing to hear out their reasons and could certainly understand some potential ones, but I would worry that whatever their stated reason are there might also be some deeper hatred to queer people as a whole and it would be that specific suspicion which would make me react (at least initially) the ways Pachy and Rai have described by removing myself from their company. Would that be fair of me? Probably not, but then if you had a friend who admitted to you that they have a deep hatred of Jewish people and you were Jewish your first reaction would probably be to get upset/angry/offended, too. It would be hard for me to have a close friend suddenly tell me they hated me and I think I'd need time away to recover.

Now that I think about it more, a lot of this scenario would be different if my friend where the one "coming out" to me with their hatred and I, in response, said "You know, I'm _____." In that situation I might feel a little... indignant? I don't know if that's the right word, but I can totally see now how coming out to someone who doesn't like *something* about queer people could come off as presumptuous. Like: "hey, don't assume I'm gonna be all okay with your views on this."

I dunno though. In the end I feel like being gay, etc. trumps whatever hatred someone has because hatred is learned and acquired. It's secondary. If they themselves couldn't help it because of abuse or something like very close-minded religious indoctrination then it would be a case of "Well, I understand that it's hard for you to accept, but I hope that you can see past your hatred because there is nothing wrong with my being this way."

So yeah, I agree with you Kura that hating what someone is and what someone does is not at all the same thing, and that hating while accepting is possible... except in cases where what someone does is something they can't really help because of who or what they are. For instance, if there were someone who was transgender they could very understandably want to change their appearance. Doing so would be part of who they are even if it weren't, strictly speaking, necessary for them to be and feel like their own gender. Hating on someone who did that would still be totally uncool in my view, even it it was what they "did" and not what they "are". Now, to reverse it and use the example I made from the previous paragraph my friend would have no ability to see past their hatred because of abuse (or whatever) but I would not accept that because their abuse isn't a part of them in the same way that being transgender is a part of me. Now, I've never been abused and I can't say I know too much about that so maybe they are more alike than I realize and I'm being unfair here, but that's how I feel.

For me what I can accept comes down to a could of simple things. If a person is gay, straight, etc. then that's just something that's a part of them. Whatever you are is something I have to accept. What people do is acceptable if they aren't trying to hurt anyone, or aren't going to hurt anyone regardless of their actions. So I totally agree that it's important to know why someone would have a lot of hatred because their intentions can make all the difference in whether I can accept them or not. I don't know how I can go into more detail about that because it's going to be different for every person and their specific reasons.

 

[Shining Raichu]

In the end I feel like being gay, etc. trumps whatever hatred someone has because hatred is learned and acquired. It's secondary.

Exactly this. Prejudice is not intrinsic, it is a learned behaviour. This is the same argument I use whenever a religion v LGBT issue comes up: we can't help being gay, but they can help being religious. It's honestly that simple. I'm not suggesting that anyone should change their religion to suit us, however the fact will always remain that on any clashes between the two, we automatically trump them by virtue of it being an intrinsic part of us that cannot be changed while their reasoning comes from their conditioning, which can.

Now, in an attempt to steer the conversation elsewhere (for no other reason than I'm starting to get bored of this lol) I have thought of another question!

What is/was the hardest part about being the closet?

 

[-Jared-]

What is/was the hardest part about being the closet?

For me, it's the worry about being outed, as well as the consequences of it. And it was kinda frustrating for me, because it wasn't just that I wasn't ready to come out, but it was because I had this 7-11 year old brother (those are the ages he was when I was in high school) who my parents and I thought was too young to be told. So even though I kinda wanted to come out I couldn't. >__< I also was SO afraid of being outed, and so paranoid, that I didn't do ANYTHING that I thought might somehow out me. No sports, no going out with friends, very few extracurricular activities, no proms or dances, nothing. -__-

I'm also tired of being asked by the kids at my brother's school "Hey, who's your girlfriend? You don't have one? Well, you HAVE had a girlfriend right? No? Why not?" And all I can say is "Eh, I'd rather not talk about it, ok?" ... "Why not?" （╯ಠ益ಠ）╯彡 ┻━┻

Also, is it okay if I ask another question? I thought of something that is off this topic while answering this, but I figured maybe I should wait until this one dies down, lol.

 

[Ineffable~]

What is/was the hardest part about being the closet?

The fact that I wanted to come out of it but the door was jammed. xD

I felt rather trapped when even my closest (offline) friends didn't know how I felt and continued to call me a boy without even knowing. For this reason I ended up never having any friends offline because whenever I did, each day I would think, "wow, I somehow feel like I never want to see this person again."

Put simply, I couldn't interact at all.

 

[Melody]

Worst part about being IN the closet is being unable to admit you find someone attractive. You just can't. You can't do anything that really expresses who you are, you get boxed in to acting like what people expect you to be.