5th Gen TMs & HMs Discussion

[Xander Olivieri]

This is the first feature in Black and White that I don't like TBH.

Competitively, it ruins most of the set up. I mean I can now give my entire team Stealth Rock so no matter who comes out first I can set it up. Same with the Over Powered TMs. It also takes away from HM's unique points.

As for useless TMs, Multi attacking ones I don't see as useless. I mean If a Grass Pokemon had Technician, you'd love the hell out of Bullet Seed.

If they were to remove TMs, I want them to remove the ones that are always on the list and the Auto Hit moves like Aerial Ace. That way they can at least put SOME challenge into raising a Pokemon. Or make the TM unusable until you refresh it like in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, since the update on it that I saw only says that the TMs don't disappear after use and not, TMs can be used over and over without fail.

 

[Planetes.]

Personally, I hate this thing.
IMHO, it's too easy in this way.
If they used another way, like buying all TMs, it would be near the same thing, but you have to gain by yourself, to get your Pokèmon stronger (I hope you'll understand).

Anyway, I'd like to have Sky Attack, Lava Plume, and Volt Tackle as TMs.
And maybe they could use all the past HMs, and something new, to get like 15 HMs! :D

Don't you ever....say 15 Hms again.

Anyway if TMs are still purchaseable, they will probably be more expensive.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

Personally, I hate this thing.
IMHO, it's too easy in this way.
If they used another way, like buying all TMs, it would be near the same thing, but you have to gain by yourself, to get your Pokèmon stronger (I hope you'll understand).

Anyway, I'd like to have Sky Attack, Lava Plume, and Volt Tackle as TMs.
And maybe they could use all the past HMs, and something new, to get like 15 HMs! :D

How would 15 Hm work we are allowed to use one per gym badge...so it wouldn't work :)

 

[Sammuthegreat]

If there's one thing I just don't understand about Pokemon, it's why there are still HMs. I mean, Pokemon are living, breathing creatures, that can walk, run, fly, climb... you name it. They don't only exist in-battle like Digimon. So why aren't HM moves tied to Pokemon's stats? There's so many ways HMs could be handled without needing to hamstring our movesets and team setups. I mean, what's the point in having a 6 team spaces available if you can only realistically use 5 due to needing an HM slave to learn all the useless moves that are needed just to get to the end of the game?! And to top it all off, the moves can't even be deleted!!!

It would be so much simpler if a Pokemon's stats and natural assets decided whether or not they were able to use an out-of-battle move. For example:

Cut could be performed by all Pokemon that have claws or blades, or even teeth, and/or a high enough Attack stat.

Fly could be performed by all Pokemon that have wings or can otherwise fly.

Surf could be performed by all Pokemon that can swim, including small ones who could tow the player along behind them.

Strength could be performed by all Pokemon with a high enough Attack stat.

Flash could be performed by all Fire- and Electric-types, as well as a selection of other Pokemon with a high enough Special Attack stat.

Rock Smash could be performed by all Pokemon with a high enough Attack stat, and/or big enough fists/tails/claws to break rocks.

Rock Climb could be performed by all Pokemon with legs and claws that are big enough to carry a person.

Waterfall could be performed by all Pokemon that can swim and have a high enough Speed stat to swim against the flow of a river.

Whirlpool could act in the exact same way as Waterfall.

Defog could be performed by all Flying-type Pokemon, and all those that have wings.

Hell, the bicycle could be replaced by all land-based Pokemon with a high enough Speed stat that are big enough to ride. There could even be different grades of speed so that everyone can ride their favourite; a Rapidash would go at a faster pace than a Swampert, which would in turn go faster than a Snorlax. I mean, who wouldn't rather ride an Arcanine than a bicycle?!

This wouldn't even be difficult to design. As it stands all HMs are learnable by a specific list of Pokemon; this idea would just make that list make sense. And to stay in line with the current system whereby you can't use HMs outside of battle until you earn the relevant badge, the following could be implemented:

You can't perform Cut outside battle until you earn a licence showing that you are competent enough to perform the dangerous operation of cutting down trees - this licence is achieved by earning the first badge.

You can't perform Surf outside battle until you earn a licence showing that you are competent enough to perform the dangerous operation of traversing long stretches of water unaccompanied - this licence is achieved by earning a later badge, etc. etc.

In no way am I expecting that this will be implemented in Black and White, but it just makes so much more sense than the current system that I literally tear my hair out at having to keep a bloody Bibarel on every D/P team I have.

 

[coolnick37]

how can we even be sure that there are going to be HMs this time, maybe they gave up on them, and we havent seen any rocks to smash, or trees to cut in the previews :/
Sammuthegreat, well that idea sounds nice, but its of course impossible, beacause it would take too much to design.....buuut +.+ i would kill to see me riding my favorite pokemon

 

[rocky505]

TMs no longer disappear means no more AR codes for infinite TMs.

 

[Gymnotide]

I've already mentioned this idea in a post before, but here it goes again.

Keep HMs in the game, but also make other moves function as HMs out of battle. This means that you would still need the proper badge to use the move outside of battle, just like HMs. Different attacks have different "Overworld Effects," that I like to call "Skills." Say if you had the attack Slash. It would grant you the Skill to "remove shrubbery" on the overworld. The same would be true for Cut, obviously. HMs are merely there so that you can always have an HM to teach to a Pokemon in case you need it, since not all teams might have the right combination of attacks to navigate the world. Pokemon Abilities should also grant Skills, if appropriate.

Different moves grant different Skills, as listed below.

Remove shrubbery: Cut, Slash, Scratch, Psycho Cut, Night Slash, Air Cutter, Air Slash, X-Scissor, Razor Wind, Magical Leaf and any other move involving cutting or slashing. This will remove the need to use the Cut HM since there are so many cutting moves, but the HM will still be in-game in case you don't have any of those moves on your Pokemon.

Move on water: Surf, Muddy Water, Water Sport, etc. There aren't many moves that fit the right description, but Surf is already such a good attack that it's very much preferred. In addition, Pokemon with the Swift Swim ability should be able to bypass requiring a move.

Scale waterfalls: Waterfall, Aqua Jet, etc.

Move boulders: Strength, Superpower, Bulk Up, Psychic, Confusion, Power Whip, etc. With the addition of Psychic-type moves as well as just pure strength moves, Strength is a lot easier to use on the overworld. In addition, Pokemon with Huge Power or Pure Power, etc. have the ability to do this innately.

Dispel darkness: Flash, Flash Cannon, Doom Desire, Signal Beam, Flamethrower, Tail Glow, and any other attack that involves or uses light, barring most electrical attacks. In addition, any Pokemon with Illuminate or Flash Fire has this ability already.

Travel to another town: Fly, Teleport, Dig, Sky Attack, Tailwind, etc.

Smash boulders: Rock Smash, Cross Chop, Karate Chop, Force Palm (most Fighting-type moves, actually), Crush Grip, Crush Claw, Mega Punch (most punching moves), Head Smash, Rock Wrecker, Rock Blast, etc. Since Rock Smash is greatly useless, it is good to have a lot of bash type moves to compensate for it.

Ram a tree: Headbutt, Zen Headbutt, Tackle, Volt Tackle, etc.

 

[PoketalkCreator]

For me, I like it a little bit. I know it makes the games easier, which I kinda like. And also, how can we be absolutely sure that they will last FOREVER like the HMs? Maybe they expire at a certain point.

 

[lucaspontes_7]

Like some people said, it would be too easy if you could use a TM forever. They could make something like, if you use a TM before beating the main storyline, it won't disappear but you won't be able to use it again. After you beat the main storyline, you could "recycle" the TM. Also, limiting the number of times, like 2 "recycles" for every TM would be good.

 

[Planetes.]

The TMs will probably be harder to obtain, now that they are infinite use, I think

 

[Karel_Kazuki]

GUys,No matter how"Obvious" your"Logic " or "Ideas" are, it wont happen.

There are somethings that Game Freak has stuck by over the Years,Gyms,TMs,HMs, and an evil team to name a few.

We all EXPECT those things because every Generation has had them.Its no turning back on the roots for which the basis was brought upon.

Now Get this Logic. THe Point of Having HMs is not for the moveset, but because it KEEPS you from advancing to the parts of the story you arent supposed to.Thats why you can obtain Cut but cant chop a tree yet but use it in battle.Remember in GSC how you could get Whirlpool but couldnt use it because you didnt have Jasmine's badge ?Or yo u obtained Surf from the Kimono girls but didnt have Morty's Badge?IT is for those reasons that you couldnt reach those areas.

Now lets think of it on a designers side.You Dont wanna spoil the story, but you somehow test to see what would happen if you gave a person the HM early, or as you would say,Let a Pokemon already know the "skill",It already allows you to access the towns , basically ruining the story line.Game Designing only goes so far and Game Freak uses just about the same scripts every game,just adds a little extra in each Generation.Maybe they havent gotten the technology where they can give that to the pokemon without ruining the story, and to me, it sounds impossible.I Know, its my majoring subject right now.So stop trying to say how supposedly pointless the HMS have been because its suupposed to be SPECULATION in this thread.ITs already been announced that there are TMs and HMS, so please stop.

On a new note,I was hoping that the moves with special abilities(I.E.Teleport, Dig,Sweet Scent(from 3rd Gen) would take the place of Hms like Whirlpool because I haven't seen a Sea Route yet.Its could be possible they cut it out.I mean look at the Isshu map...Its basically all land except the islands south of the Starter's town,which only looks accessable by boat.

 

[Zelda]

For me, I like it a little bit. I know it makes the games easier, which I kinda like. And also, how can we be absolutely sure that they will last FOREVER like the HMs? Maybe they expire at a certain point.

I don't see a need for TM's to expire. :x Sure, since they'll be an infinite use it won't give us a challenge to go trade for them but, it helps others who don't have good things to trade in return.
If TM's last forever like HM's, I don't see that being a problem..o o It actually will be a relief for many since the only thing we can do is trade for them or obtain them by spending hours playing Game Corner games or battling the Battle Frontier for points to get them.

If they weren't going to last forever I'd be use to it since that's happened all the time.

The TMs will probably be harder to obtain, now that they are infinite use, I think

This will make more of a challenge for those who want more challenge, but on the other hand there is a lot of TM's to be obtained so I'm not totally sure either. xD;

 

[Zeturic]

GUys,No matter how"Obvious" your"Logic " or "Ideas" are, it wont happen.

There are somethings that Game Freak has stuck by over the Years,Gyms,TMs,HMs, and an evil team to name a few.

We all EXPECT those things because every Generation has had them.Its no turning back on the roots for which the basis was brought upon.

Now Get this Logic. THe Point of Having HMs is not for the moveset, but because it KEEPS you from advancing to the parts of the story you arent supposed to.Thats why you can obtain Cut but cant chop a tree yet but use it in battle.Remember in GSC how you could get Whirlpool but couldnt use it because you didnt have Jasmine's badge ?Or yo u obtained Surf from the Kimono girls but didnt have Morty's Badge?IT is for those reasons that you couldnt reach those areas.

Now lets think of it on a designers side.You Dont wanna spoil the story, but you somehow test to see what would happen if you gave a person the HM early, or as you would say,Let a Pokemon already know the "skill",It already allows you to access the towns , basically ruining the story line.Game Designing only goes so far and Game Freak uses just about the same scripts every game,just adds a little extra in each Generation.Maybe they havent gotten the technology where they can give that to the pokemon without ruining the story, and to me, it sounds impossible.I Know, its my majoring subject right now.So stop trying to say how supposedly pointless the HMS have been because its suupposed to be SPECULATION in this thread.ITs already been announced that there are TMs and HMS, so please stop.

On a new note,I was hoping that the moves with special abilities(I.E.Teleport, Dig,Sweet Scent(from 3rd Gen) would take the place of Hms like Whirlpool because I haven't seen a Sea Route yet.Its could be possible they cut it out.I mean look at the Isshu map...Its basically all land except the islands south of the Starter's town,which only looks accessable by boat.

Pay attention. There. Did you see it? After a punctuation mark, you put a space before continuing typing.

Other than that, nothing you said made any sense. The people were saying that the better TMs (Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, etc.) will be harder to obtain because they are multi-use.

Yes, HMs were used for exploration. So? Also, you're forgetting something - you need badges to use HMs. Which, is really irrelevant to the rarity of TMs.

 

[Karel_Kazuki]

If you would look at some of the posts on the last page or even Gymnotide's post,You'd see what I'm talking about.This doesn't refer to whoever is speaking about TMs.and BTW it says TMs/ HMs so they can be discussed too.

 

[Charizard★]

Wow. Finally. I love TM reusable idea XD

 

[austy14]

I think it would also be cool if they kept the HM system for out of battle purposes, but they should also let you use any move out of battle. These moves might not do anything but maybe a special little graphics show... like, your pokemon uses fire balst and a blast of fire appears in front of you. Now bullet seed would have a purpose, cus you could spit seeds at people (even if it just looks like it though nothing happens) you could also do this to affect the way buildings/trees look while you're there, like burnt trees and puddles! They would disappear when you change route/tpwn though.

 

[WarpstarX]

Also. I actually hope they decrease the amount of TMs, low level ones as mentioned in MRAS' post (bullet seed) are... sort of not necessary.

Since Tm's are "movable" items they kinda have to keep every single TM we've had before so there WILL be 90+ TM's. Every non key item from the 3rd & 4th gen onwards has to be in forth generation (even the useless ones).

GUys,No matter how"Obvious" your"Logic " or "Ideas" are, it wont happen.

There are somethings that Game Freak has stuck by over the Years,Gyms,TMs,HMs, and an evil team to name a few.

We all EXPECT those things because every Generation has had them.Its no turning back on the roots for which the basis was brought upon.

Now Get this Logic. THe Point of Having HMs is not for the moveset, but because it KEEPS you from advancing to the parts of the story you arent supposed to.

That makes sense but then they could use the whole "broken bridge"/"fallen tree"/ or you can not advance because a minor inconvenience crap.

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

That makes sense but then they could use the whole "broken bridge"/"fallen tree"/ or you can not advance because a minor inconvenience crap.

That's sooo LegendOfZelda/MarioRPG/FinalFantasy/EveryOtherRPG.

I also don't understand this bull about killing competitive battling. Are you saying trading to get more of a TM kills it? o_o obviously, whoever reckons multiple of the one move on a team overpowers it has never played real competitive battling. 'specially with SR, because nobody in their right mind wastes slots on SR.

And I dislike the idea of a complete TM overhaul. It's also not possible, because it's been confirmed (has it?) that we can transfer Pokemon from DPPt/HGSS to this. Thus, we must keep the TMs, or we'd get a billion illegal move combos, like Breloom with Thunderpunch + Poison Heal from DPPt era.

 

[Volroc]

Personally i think only these should be TMs/HMs:

Attack Moves [37]:

Spoiler:

Flamethrower
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt
Energy Ball
Dragon Pulse
Dark Pulse
Psychic
Dragon Claw
Sludge Bomb
Flash Cannon
Iron Head
Earthquake
Earth Power
Thief (just cuz i like to steal items :P)
Aerial Ace
Air Slash
False Swipe
Brick Break
Aura sphere
Shadow Claw
Shadow Ball
Signal Beam
X-Scissor
Psycho Cut
Seed Bomb
Thunder Punch
Fire Punch
Ice Punch
Tri Attack
Strength
Facade
Surf
Waterfall
Fly
Cut
Rock Climb
Dive
(Hidden Power should come from a Move tutor,who tells you the pokemons HP& its strength after you teach it to it)

Status Moves [23]:

Spoiler:

Substitute
Calm Mind
Bulk Up
Toxic
Nasty Plot
Swords Dance
Recover
Roost
Synthesis
Trick Room
Dragon Dance
Hail
Sunny Day
Rain Dance
Sandstorm
Taunt
Baton Pass
Wish
Recycle [and a whole increase on pokemon who can use it,theres not that many]
Gravity
Flash
Double Team
Foresight

Basically at least 1physical&special move for each type, a few strategic attack moves.
then the most commonly used Status moves, a few nice In-game Status moves, and 7 HMs being turned into TMs: Surf,Waterfall,Strength,Cut,Flash (already done in gen4),Rock Climb,& Dive.

feel free to quote& edit to your preferences ^_^
but i did this in a, non-competitive way/ competitive way
kept the status moves, but got rid of the over used attacks, & attacks with no effect, no use, or just with bad accuracy.

 

[Haza]

There should also be some weaker TMs for the basic staged Pokemon during the early gameplay. Anyway, I really like the fact that you dont have to find more after you use it once, or hack to get 995 of every TM.