Anime/Manga Underrated Masterpieces

[gimmepie]

What series (anime, manga or otherwise) do you think are amazing and need more recognition? Why?

 

[Enpatsu Shakugan]

The Elemental Gelade anime, NOT manga, is one of the best examples of shonen I've ever seen. And easily one of the best romance stories in anime. I love it when the relationship with the leads is not only believable, but essential to the larger overarching plot.
So many writers fail to do this when it comes to romance, to have it be pivotal to the story at hand, instead of just the icing on the cake.


And the Shakugan no Shana series needs its dues in the west. Japan already knows how amazing it is, but the rest of the world hasn't caught up.

 

[Lipstick Vogue]

Obviously not as big as Code Geass or Haruhi but Shakugan no Shana was easily one of the biggest series in the west between 2005 and 2010. Appreciate that Japan had less filthy secondaries as the novels were popular but can guarentee that a big cunk of those people were in it for the cute fire loli tsundere over the story.

I'll have to have a thin about it. Perhaps not masterpieces but I can think of quite a few underwatched/under appreciated gems.

 

[Enpatsu Shakugan]

Obviously not as big as Code Geass or Haruhi but Shakugan no Shana was easily one of the biggest series in the west between 2005 and 2010. Appreciate that Japan had less filthy secondaries as the novels were popular but can guarentee that a big cunk of those people were in it for the cute fire loli tsundere over the story.

I'll have to have a thin about it. Perhaps not masterpieces but I can think of quite a few underwatched/under appreciated gems.

Which is a shame, to focus simply on its character designs vs said story. I'll disagree somewhat though. You don't stick around THAT long with such a heavy story just for lolis or cute girls. Shana is literally the only one too in the loli regard. Maaaaybe Hecate.
Maybe it kicked off their interest, sure, but it's hard to stick with a show like Shana for superficial reasons. It's hard enough to understand even if you love the story. It's a series to me that rewards dedication to it, and it requires a lot of it. Not exactly what I think of when it comes to easy. Especially when someone can just watch one of 50 billion ecchi animes instead for their fix. But that's my opinion.

I think the fact it got three full series is testament to a fanbase interested in more than just ecchi.

Despite that, I rarely see it mentioned in the west, even in reviews.


Sadly too, its popularity wasn't enough here to get Viz to release more than 2 (of 22) volumes of the original light novels too. Despite hogging the rights for anyone else. Free translations even stopped when it got licensed.

The lack of effort they put into is obvious too. The first book is full of typos and bad translation, but at least I could still read it.

Gotta get more SAO out first, I guess, vs something with an actual story.

 

[Lipstick Vogue]

You're overestimating light novel readers, a novel every 6 months isn't strenuous reading. Of course I'm not saying there aren't people that read for the story, just saying there's an awful lot that would have read for their favourite waifu. I'd have read for Margery Daw and the purple maid tbh. Remember these are the same people that will have liked Index, Mahouka and Sword Art Online later on.

Also it got 3 seasons of anime because they helped sell the novels, same as all/most light novel series adaptations

Dunno if it sounds as if I'm putting the series down because I'm not. I'd genuinely like to read the novels, as there were some things that did seem interesting in the anime and manga, especially towards the end. Doubt I ever will though.

 

[Enpatsu Shakugan]

You're overestimating light novel readers, a novel every 6 months isn't strenuous reading. Of course I'm not saying there aren't people that read for the story, just saying there's an awful lot that would have read for their favourite waifu. I'd have read for Margery Daw and the purple maid tbh. Remember these are the same people that will have liked Index, Mahouka and Sword Art Online later on.

Also it got 3 seasons of anime because they helped sell the novels, same as all/most light novel series adaptations

Dunno if it sounds as if I'm putting the series down because I'm not. I'd genuinely like to read the novels, as there were some things that did seem interesting in the anime and manga, especially towards the end. Doubt I ever will though.

Oh that's not what I was saying; not reading novels or the length. I mean the sheer complexity in the narrative. Seriously, watching Shana 3 for me the first time required the wikipedia; and you NEED light novel knowledge to even fully comprehend it. Second time around, it was still very complicated, but was a lot easier for me. No one without the dedication required would enjoy the finale at all.

It doesn't dumb down the narrative for those who won't get it; quite the opposite, actually; it rewards those who are deeply invested.

My point was, the series is a little too difficult and high maintenance for the people who only view it superficially. They'd get bored because there is no real fanservice (apart from one character, because it's just how she acts, and very rarely at that) and a lot of talking with fighting only when it counts.
I feel people only after ecchi, lolis, or ZOMG ACTION would probably get pretty bored pretty quick, especially given there's lots of other animes out there to give them their fix of all that with a lot less work.

 

[Lipstick Vogue]

You are honestly the first person I've seen to put Shakugan no Shana and complex narrative together in the same sentence. It doesn't surprise me that things were left out of the adaptation (there usually are) but I don't recall ever being lost watching it. Sure I'd love to read the novels and get a more full view of the series ending but it seems that isn't going to happen.

I also don't really agree with the last part, nothing I have seen or read from the series indicates that people would struggle to enjoy viewing it as a popcorn adventure. Remember a large majority of the series was far lighter in tone than the final arc, and I'd imagine quite a few of the books were relatively self contained too.

Agree that there wasn't much traditional ass and tiddies fan service but honestly the titular character was refined fan service to almost sickening levels. People eat up anything with their favourite anime fetish archetypes in them.

 

[Enpatsu Shakugan]

You are honestly the first person I've seen to put Shakugan no Shana and complex narrative together in the same sentence. It doesn't surprise me that things were left out of the adaptation (there usually are) but I don't recall ever being lost watching it. Sure I'd love to read the novels and get a more full view of the series ending but it seems that isn't going to happen.

I also don't really agree with the last part, nothing I have seen or read from the series indicates that people would struggle to enjoy viewing it as a popcorn adventure. Remember a large majority of the series was far lighter in tone than the final arc, and I'd imagine quite a few of the books were relatively self contained too.

Agree that there wasn't much traditional ass and tiddies fan service but honestly the titular character was refined fan service to almost sickening levels. People eat up anything with their favourite anime fetish archetypes in them.

What version did you watch, by chance? Dub, free sub, official subs?

It's not very hard to understand, sure, but I'm talking the little details that are rife in the light novel that are only inferred in the anime. That's the stuff about it I really like, and why I crave to read it too.

But when it comes to Shana 3, that's when it gets very very complicated and those little details are plot elements themselves. Full characters, important ones, are only alluded to, etc. It still works, but you need to know the source material first to fully appreciate it. It presents it in a way that is easiest to digest, but if you want to dig deeper, it gets very deep. It's like seeing one tunnel of an ant colony, and if you just dig one layer deeper, it's mind-boggingly huge and complex with said tunnels.

I'd like to talk Shana 3 with you just to see if how much you did actually get from that last batch of episodes to the end or if you just sat back to enjoy the ride without needlessly focusing on those details (like me).
But to me, those details are what makes a great story. And all I know was with that interest in mind, it was literally one of the most complicated animes I'd ever seen. And probably the most amazing too.
And keep in mind, I haven't been able to actually read the novels past volume 2, so of course the third anime (volumes 18+) remains equally elusive in details. All I have to go on are regurgitated translations on a poorly written wikia.



Yeah, but I feel those people wouldn't have made it to the end though, haha.



And yes, very true! Never underestimate the power of even the mildest of fetishes!

 

[Lipstick Vogue]

It has been so long I have no idea which subs I used, possibly Commie for s3 but I genuinely can't remember. I watched the first 2 series back in 2010 and then 3 as it aired in 2012, so forgive me if my memories are in a bit of a haze (ayyy). If I ever decide to rewatch it I will certainly drop you a message.

I will say that I wouldn't have been over reading into anything, think I just accepted that I would be missing some things. Although I would have been following weekly threads on /a/ and I was reading the manga at that time too so I wouldn't have been completely in the dark. I do remember people complaining quite bit at the time, not that it's ever different with light novel adaptations.

Season 1 - 235k
Season 2 - 167k
Season 3 - 106k

Those are the completion figures from MAL. That's quite a big drop off but I suppose it correlates with a change in popular trends.

 

[Enpatsu Shakugan]

It has been so long I have no idea which subs I used, possibly Commie for s3 but I genuinely can't remember. I watched the first 2 series back in 2010 and then 3 as it aired in 2012, so forgive me if my memories are in a bit of a haze (ayyy). If I ever decide to rewatch it I will certainly drop you a message.

I will say that I wouldn't have been over reading into anything, think I just accepted that I would be missing some things. Although I would have been following weekly threads on /a/ and I was reading the manga at that time too so I wouldn't have been completely in the dark. I do remember people complaining quite bit at the time, not that it's ever different with light novel adaptations.

Season 1 - 235k
Season 2 - 167k
Season 3 - 106k

Those are the completion figures from MAL. That's quite a big drop off but I suppose it correlates with a change in popular trends.

I wouldn't read too much into that extremely common trend. Seriously, just watch even a series of the same video split into parts by Youtubers and it steadily declines too. That's just the nature of man.

And, honestly, I really don't care what numbers say. How popular something is means nothing to me, even if I'm the only person in the world who appreciates it the way I do.
I only want things I feel passionate about to get further exposure, hence my post that started it.


Hmm, sounds like the free subs. To be honest, each version gives me a wholly different experience, and that's not a good thing.
The dub is a joke and a mess. Pass.
The free subs are tricky because Shana to me is a well-oiled machine and every line has to be in place, otherwise things start falling off.

When I started it, I got the season 1 boxset from a friend and naturally wanted to see more, but didn't know where to find them. I got into 2 pretty quick but midway, I was losing interest, much to my shock.

I stopped and then found official DVDs with the subs I was used to from 1 and suddenly, no more issues. Even my second time. It was those free subs sort of mistranslating a line or two here or there, or just making some details incredibly hard to understand.

The "Psalm of the Grand Order" is a very important thing in the story, and I recall the free subs instead using its Japanese name, which already sounded similar to just "The Grand Order" (IE, not the Unrestricted Method of it, the Psalm) and from that alone, you're gonna get real confused. Just one of many things like that.

See, when I watch stuff, I love knowing the how's and why everything is happening. If I just accepted any old thing, then there are no rules and no stakes and that's boring for me. But that's just how I watch anime.

But if you want an example of how complicated and in-depth Shana is, look at these characters. Their roles are the same in both the anime and light novel, as are their introductions and everything else.
But the light novel also crafted a massive backstory for them, which basically set up the rules and why they are, where they are, etc, are all explained from this. It adds to world, even though these characters were barely in... 5 episodes, despite being so critical to the story:

https://shakugan.wikia.com/wiki/The_Four_Gods_of_Earth

Take a gander. This depth is the reason I love this series. That story could be its own anime itself.
Forget Star Wars, this is a show that could actually have a cinematic universe on its entire lore, world, and characters.

 

[Lipstick Vogue]

I think most people lost some interest during season 2, whichever subs they were using. Yoshida not being even slightly engaging to watch made all of that love triangle focus stuff a real slog to get through. I'm a Macross fan too so I love frustrating love triangles in my anime.

Reading through that (and some other things last time we spoke about Shana actually) leaves me kind of wishing the series was written for the normal fantasy book market, as opposed to a light novel. He did have some nice ideas.

 

[Enpatsu Shakugan]

I think most people lost some interest during season 2, whichever subs they were using. Yoshida not being even slightly engaging to watch made all of that love triangle focus stuff a real slog to get through. I'm a Macross fan too so I love frustrating love triangles in my anime.

Reading through that (and some other things last time we spoke about Shana actually) leaves me kind of wishing the series was written for the normal fantasy book market, as opposed to a light novel. He did have some nice ideas.

I love them all, but I'm in agreement with 2 being my least favorite of them. Though the last half are really great; probably the best mix of the slice of life and supernatural genres.

I agree, but light novels are essentially just books with one or two pages with an image, haha. But yeah, I agree. It could've been Lord of the Rings style epic.

 

[Lipstick Vogue]

Light novels are essentially Japanese teen fiction, often written in the simpler form of the Japanese language for a younger audience. They're often heavily influenced by publishers and editors, more so than other forms of books. Can you imagine them ever signing off on the novels with all the fantasy stuff but none of the 'URASAI URASAI URASAI' or other anime tropes? Not saying that regular novels are devoid of tropes but light novels live on them.

 

[Enpatsu Shakugan]

Light novels are essentially Japanese teen fiction, often written in the simpler form of the Japanese language for a younger audience. They're often heavily influenced by publishers and editors, more so than other forms of books. Can you imagine them ever signing off on the novels with all the fantasy stuff but none of the 'URASAI URASAI URASAI' or other anime tropes? Not saying that regular novels are devoid of tropes but light novels live on them.

Haha, yeah, but that doesn't translate when it's in English.

What I really love about Shana is, you can see the standard light novel formula, but this is an example of a skilled writer using the formula to his advantage.

For example, every single anime of the last 5 years always has the "beach" episode, the "fanservice episode" right after the first climax.
Shana is the same. After Friagne, the anime does a bikini water park episode.

But what's great is, that episode is crucial to the next series in and of itself. It's the first time the human friends of everyone finally get their true introductions. Knowing who a minor character like Oga is is crucial to the character of Tanaka and Sato, and it pays off near the end of Shana 2.

He used that beach trope in the narrative flawlessly. Hell, first time I watched, I didn't even think about it. It was a natural progression and it fit so well. Little did I know how important the slice of life side of the series actually was to its duality.


Long story short, formula doesn't bother me. Cliches don't; it's just how you use them.

 

[Aduitt]

Terror in Resonance.
Though its animating was not exactly 'stand out'; I really enjoyed the anime. Its use of Icelandic music and what I would call great pacing (I have not seen it in a while so I may be wrong) made me actually engage with each episodes release.
In short, I loved it! I would highly recommend it!
I honestly wish it was acknowledged more.

 

[donavannj]

If we don't restrict it to stuff I rated as "masterpiece" on the MAL scale (which is a 10), I'm gonna submit Read or Die for a nomination, mostly because among younger fans it's not all that well known.

It's an absolutely fantastic and fun series that's a visual treat.

 

[Lipstick Vogue]

If we don't restrict it to stuff I rated as "masterpiece" on the MAL scale (which is a 10), I'm gonna submit Read or Die for a nomination, mostly because among younger fans it's not all that well known.

It's an absolutely fantastic and fun series that's a visual treat.

I know the OVA is worth it but how about the TV series?

 

[donavannj]

I know the OVA is worth it but how about the TV series?

Not so much. It's got a lot of slice of life fluff before getting down to the meat of the plot that ultimately feels a little rushed at the end.

 

[Enpatsu Shakugan]

Not so much. It's got a lot of slice of life fluff before getting down to the meat of the plot that ultimately feels a little rushed at the end.

I saw the OVA in 2005 and thought it was fun, and other fans said to also look at the series. Rather odd to hear the longer detailed version isn't worth it.

 

[donavannj]

I saw the OVA in 2005 and thought it was fun, and other fans said to also look at the series. Rather odd to hear the longer detailed version isn't worth it.

I still kinda enjoyed it but the pacing really plods along. Scoring it episode by episode, it started fun but plodded along through something like a cour and then pacing finally picked up but they still kinda rushed the finale iirc.

If you have patience it's still enjoyable, but for a series that's supposed to have action going on it takes a good while to get going.