US Elections 2008: Debate the Issues

[sims796]

Just what are you implying. The stereotype that the "youth" are a bunch of Democrats? Aurasphere attests to the fact that it's not true. But don't worry Obama has rallied the "Youth" to vote and be part of the political process....:P

Ok just because were "Kids" doesn't mean we don't know what is going on. What are you, 19? Such thinking is what makes the Youth lose their voice in Government. What makes you think that just because your "older" you know everything? Seriously, the Youth has been shunned from the HEAVILY CORRUPT political process long enough!!! That's messed up thinking right there. Are we going to give up our voice for the RICH FAT CATS IN WALL.ST?

And you proved my point on the youths of America. Try re-reading what I wrote, instead of takiing things as an insult. I never said that the youth must be kept out of the loop. Not even close. I did say, that Triforce correctly noted, that the youths are ignorant of what goes on inside of the real world. Meaning, the youth doesn't own businesses. The youth doesn't pay taxes. The youth, most at least, doesn't have jobs to pay taxes, or to support others. No, not helping out the parents,I mean paying their own taxes. The youth aren't traders. They can ONLY form opinions on things they look up, things they watch on the news, and reasearch. That can take you far, but because things don't afect you,personally, you won't have the clear understanding of an adult.

Also, I never said that I was any difference, I was correctly noting on something I have seen. To say that I feel I am better is very,very immature thinking. Bad enough you mistook my words, but I figured the young would. This is just what I mean about the youth. Almost all youth finds the government corrupt, yet can only reason with wild theories. And anyone that is rich is fatcats.

EDIT:Wait, I even included myself with my summaries of the youth in politics. So where are you getting this from?

 

[Volkner's Apprentice]

And you proved my point on the youths of America. Try re-reading what I wrote, instead of takiing things as an insult. I never said that the youth must be kept out of the loop. Not even close. I did say, that Triforce correctly noted, that the youths are ignorant of what goes on inside of the real world. Meaning, the youth doesn't own businesses. The youth doesn't pay taxes. The youth, most at least, doesn't have jobs to pay taxes, or to support others. No, not helping out the parents,I mean paying their own taxes. The youth aren't traders. They can ONLY form opinions on things they look up, things they watch on the news, and reasearch. That can take you far, but because things don't afect you,personally, you won't have the clear understanding of an adult.

Also, I never said that I was any difference, I was correctly noting on something I have seen. To say that I feel I am better is very,very immature thinking. Bad enough you mistook my words, but I figured the young would. This is just what I mean about the youth. Almost all youth finds the government corrupt, yet can only reason with wild theories. And anyone that is rich is fatcats.

EDIT:Wait, I even included myself with my summaries of the youth in politics. So where are you getting this from?

I can almost completely agree with that statement too, sims. I mean honestly, I'm 18. Legal? Sure, but does that mean I'm fully educated oh how to pay taxes, run a business, amongst a wide variety of everything people have to get to knowing when they get into the real world? Hell no. I'm just an average college student trying to get into a better university right now, I'm focused on that as well as maintaining a part-time job to help my parents out with car insurance and keeping myself in shape, social, and well-versed in all of my interest areas. The youth of America cannot fully grasp what these issues completely encompass because when it comes right down to it, there's no other learning method but experience. That's the bottom line-you have to do, touch, feel, get angry, get stressed, get confused, be enlightened, be focused, be determined, and everything else on the emotional roller coaster called Life. You can't just say "my dad taught me this" or "Oh I watch and hear about that all the time on the news" and call yourself well-versed on the matters at hand.

As much as I like having the ability to vote the moment I turn eighteen, it's painfully obvious the majority of my peers don't use this right to their advantage. I've studied the issues, I've weighed the sides which is ten times more than the average student at my school (thankfully, though, this being such an important election, most of my friends, classmates and neighbors have really gotten into things and are taking sides/learning/etc. which I think is a good start.) In the end, however, I still feel as if an overwhelming percentage of the issues cannot possibly be grasped by my brain nor that of anyone who is eighteen years of age in these United States because we just. haven't. been. there. period.

To top it all off, things are never going to just hit you upside the head like a bag of bricks and suddenly you're an expert on politics, big business, the economy as a whole, global everything, etc. It's a gradual process and a lot of such things can be difficult to start learning, let alone master by age twenty.

 

[/Circa]

Bill Clinton coming back to finish what he started through other people?
I'm surprised he's still alive. Not for long >;D!

 

[sims796]

I can almost completely agree with that statement too, sims. I mean honestly, I'm 18. Legal? Sure, but does that mean I'm fully educated oh how to pay taxes, run a business, amongst a wide variety of everything people have to get to knowing when they get into the real world? Hell no. I'm just an average college student trying to get into a better university right now, I'm focused on that as well as maintaining a part-time job to help my parents out with car insurance and keeping myself in shape, social, and well-versed in all of my interest areas. The youth of America cannot fully grasp what these issues completely encompass because when it comes right down to it, there's no other learning method but experience. That's the bottom line-you have to do, touch, feel, get angry, get stressed, get confused, be enlightened, be focused, be determined, and everything else on the emotional roller coaster called Life. You can't just say "my dad taught me this" or "Oh I watch and hear about that all the time on the news" and call yourself well-versed on the matters at hand.

As much as I like having the ability to vote the moment I turn eighteen, it's painfully obvious the majority of my peers don't use this right to their advantage. I've studied the issues, I've weighed the sides which is ten times more than the average student at my school (thankfully, though, this being such an important election, most of my friends, classmates and neighbors have really gotten into things and are taking sides/learning/etc. which I think is a good start.) In the end, however, I still feel as if an overwhelming percentage of the issues cannot possibly be grasped by my brain nor that of anyone who is eighteen years of age in these United States because we just. haven't. been. there. period.

To top it all off, things are never going to just hit you upside the head like a bag of bricks and suddenly you're an expert on politics, big business, the economy as a whole, global everything, etc. It's a gradual process and a lot of such things can be difficult to start learning, let alone master by age twenty.

Thank you, you, how does it go, hit the nail on the head? Original reasearch can only ttake you so far. There is nothing wrong with learning the issues as a young, and staying on top of the game in politics. Just please remember, that until you get a job, pay taxes, maybe support a family, hell, even yourself, you do not have all the answers. You can only watch the carnage, and because the young feels that they know much, they usually have "all the answers", leading to democraic beliefs. M+

BTW, democrats FTW. I said it.

 

[Joey the Cockroach]

if i could, i would possibly vote for Barack Obama because i think he can make a big difference. i think he would do extremely well as President.

 

[sims796]

Oh, I meant that. I hate everyone younger. Hence my high school nickname, "Grampa". Even in college, I've been called bitter like an old man. Always with their Myspace, and their hippity-hop music, and their MP3s & 123s.

That said, this has been a pretty pissy election thus far.

 

[Netto Azure]

Ok real replies...

Ok I am restating and retracting my former comments since now I could see our misunderstanding. Also I was just making spontanious comments since I barely had the time to comment and was just skimming through the replies. Not I have 30 Minutes to clear this up. New Comments in Bold.

I *kinda* meant both the democratic & the youth are out of the loop, but you explained it much better, especially since I had to re-read it twice =D.

I think I may be democratic, I haven't decided. But no matter what the party, it is far too important to look outside the ass or the trunk, and do original reasearch. The youth of today has far too much time on their hands, thinking they can understand everything about the world through the news & the internets. And 97% of the internets is porn, so there that goes. And don't get me started on those liberal youths. Rebublican youth actually annoy me more.

I just hate young people >=[

I agree that experience in "real" life is needed for us to understand how things actually work. I don't think that simply reasaerching and reading about life is enough for us to understand how it works. Politics on the other hand CAN be influenced for the better if you work and pressure the government enough that's what we were talking about weren't we?.

And you proved my point on the youths of America. Try re-reading what I wrote, instead of takiing things as an insult. I never said that the youth must be kept out of the loop. Not even close. I did say, that Triforce correctly noted, that the youths are ignorant of what goes on inside of the real world. Meaning, the youth doesn't own businesses. The youth doesn't pay taxes. The youth, most at least, doesn't have jobs to pay taxes, or to support others. No, not helping out the parents,I mean paying their own taxes. The youth aren't traders. They can ONLY form opinions on things they look up, things they watch on the news, and reasearch. That can take you far, but because things don't afect you,personally, you won't have the clear understanding of an adult.

Also, I never said that I was any difference, I was correctly noting on something I have seen. To say that I feel I am better is very,very immature thinking. Bad enough you mistook my words, but I figured the young would. This is just what I mean about the youth. Almost all youth finds the government corrupt, yet can only reason with wild theories. And anyone that is rich is fatcats.

EDIT:Wait, I even included myself with my summaries of the youth in politics. So where are you getting this from?

Reading that short fictional novel "Flowers for Algernon", proves your point that growing intellectually is not enough to understand the world. You need both emotional growth and experience for you to truly understand, even just a little bit, on how GREY the world really is. I apologize again for the misunderstanding. I know that not every rich person is corrupt. Stereotypes of any kind is degrading to the hard work one individual does to get where they are, my former comment just shows my flaws as a human being, having stereotypes of people or a certain group. I admit to that.

I can almost completely agree with that statement too, sims. I mean honestly, I'm 18. Legal? Sure, but does that mean I'm fully educated oh how to pay taxes, run a business, amongst a wide variety of everything people have to get to knowing when they get into the real world? Hell no. I'm just an average college student trying to get into a better university right now, I'm focused on that as well as maintaining a part-time job to help my parents out with car insurance and keeping myself in shape, social, and well-versed in all of my interest areas. The youth of America cannot fully grasp what these issues completely encompass because when it comes right down to it, there's no other learning method but experience. That's the bottom line-you have to do, touch, feel, get angry, get stressed, get confused, be enlightened, be focused, be determined, and everything else on the emotional roller coaster called Life. You can't just say "my dad taught me this" or "Oh I watch and hear about that all the time on the news" and call yourself well-versed on the matters at hand.

As much as I like having the ability to vote the moment I turn eighteen, it's painfully obvious the majority of my peers don't use this right to their advantage. I've studied the issues, I've weighed the sides which is ten times more than the average student at my school (thankfully, though, this being such an important election, most of my friends, classmates and neighbors have really gotten into things and are taking sides/learning/etc. which I think is a good start.) In the end, however, I still feel as if an overwhelming percentage of the issues cannot possibly be grasped by my brain nor that of anyone who is eighteen years of age in these United States because we just. haven't. been. there. period.

To top it all off, things are never going to just hit you upside the head like a bag of bricks and suddenly you're an expert on politics, big business, the economy as a whole, global everything, etc. It's a gradual process and a lot of such things can be difficult to start learning, let alone master by age twenty.

As I said earlier I agree that us Youth need experience. But today's world is too specialized and the adults are too confortable to what they have that they just want to hang on to it. Seriously some people are not even bothering to look at the issues, the backgrounds of the candidates, and just care for what happens within their own backyard. What's the use of all that experience then? Do we just blindly follow what the media spin says or the candidates mudslinging? Or do we use technology to understand things better?

Thank you, you, how does it go, hit the nail on the head? Original reasearch can only take you so far. There is nothing wrong with learning the issues as a young, and staying on top of the game in politics. Just please remember, that until you get a job, pay taxes, maybe support a family, hell, even yourself, you do not have all the answers. You can only watch the carnage, and because the young feels that they know much, they usually have "all the answers", leading to democraic beliefs. M+

BTW, democrats FTW. I said it.

I restate my point. I don't believe the Youth has all the answers. But that also applies to adults as well. Do our politicians have all the answers? No. But we are lucky to have them to take that burden on their conscience of knowing the morally questionable things they do to get things done or moving forward. Also why should us youth just "watch the carnage"? I have raised that point since that is what my Mother keeps on saying due to me paying attention to this election. She keeps on saying "Why don't you become a politician?" I say NO, because Politicians sell their souls and beliefs for the power of compromise. I know that the World is GREY much to my dismay, we could see it everyday. My mom says "Don't lie" But I can see them doing that, isn't that hypocritical?
But us Youth still have uncrushed ideals and while we still have it we must use our power of protest to get people to listen.

Oh, I meant that. I hate everyone younger. Hence my high school nickname, "Grampa". Even in college, I've been called bitter like an old man. Always with their Myspace, and their hippity-hop music, and their MP3s & 123s.

That said, this has been a pretty pissy election thus far.

LOL :P
Your right the age gap and technological difference can make things look different. But please understand that the Youth are people too. They just want to take things slow before we start worrying about the problems of "real" life. While we still have the free time to pay attention to Global affairs, we must use it for the betterment of Society. Because once you get older their is just so many domestic problems for you to have the time to do real reaserch on how Global Things work.

Please dont hate the youth. Please understand our positions.
I just didn't have the "free time" that you were talking about. High School comes first. Why do I even bother to go to school if I didn't want to learn how the world works. Also again, I apologize.

What do you mean "Pissy" election? :D

 

[sims796]

Those are all youthful opinions, that will change with age. I'm not reading all that, far too much >=[. But as we said, those opinions won't nearly be the same when you go out there. Adults may not hhave all the answers,but they damn sure know more than the young. & I don't mean those special, "out of the loop" adults, I mean real working, striving adults, having to support a family or just themselves, those that own businesses & those whose job depends on this stock crash, or the nex pres. As I said, I never mentioned that the young only "watches the carnage", and I don't really feel like mentioning it again, but I will. We can keep ourselves informed, but it will never match experience. And as I keep saying, over 9000 tyemz, we can still have a voice, but their is a reason the young cannot vote. We can try our best to get the message across, however, I never disputed that. Well, yaw'll can try. I can vote. Burn. Epic burn. (Although I said it 9001 teimz, I never made it this clear. Didn't think I'd have too)

I always hear how "corrupt" politicians are, yet I never get a clear reasoning as to why. It usually comes from those that are in high school. It is never that black & white. Do we see the world as grey, or do we only see what we can watch on the news?

Those domestic problems are what shape America, and is what makes the average American voter's (foriegn or otherwise) opinion.

No harm done.

 

[Netto Azure]

Eh....

Those are all youthful opinions, that will change with age. I'm not reading all that, far too much >=[. But as we said, those opinions won't nearly be the same when you go out there. Adults may not have all the answers, but they damn sure know more than the young. & I don't mean those special, "out of the loop" adults, I mean real working, striving adults, having to support a family or just themselves, those that own businesses & those whose job depends on this stock crash, or the nex pres. As I said, I never mentioned that the young only "watches the carnage", and I don't really feel like mentioning it again, but I will. We can keep ourselves informed, but it will never match experience. And as I keep saying, over 9000 tyemz, we can still have a voice, but their is a reason the young cannot vote. We can try our best to get the message across, however, I never disputed that. Well, yaw'll can try. I can vote. Burn. Epic burn. (Although I said it 9001 teimz, I never made it this clear. Didn't think I'd have too)

I always hear how "corrupt" politicians are, yet I never get a clear reasoning as to why. It usually comes from those that are in high school. It is never that black & white. Do we see the world as grey, or do we only see what we can watch on the news?

Those domestic problems are what shape America, and is what makes the average American voter's (foriegn or otherwise) opinion.

No harm done.

Eh, Ok your right. That disillusion to the world you are describing has already started to occur to me. If you asked me Political questions on the 2006 Elections, I would have blindly stated: "The Republicans are right we should stay in the Middle East to fight the terrorists. So I support the Republicans." I keet on repeating, Yes, we need experience but we need to be also aware. Also I've already repeated many times the world IS GREY. :D Hmm...My classmates were looking at me funny when I started saying such things. They think I'm weird for being realistic that life is hard.You can vote but we can PROTEST (LOL :P) heh...I just want this to be more positive.

Want to talk about corruption? "Why do we still don't have Universal Healthcare?" when every other "Modern" Western Country does. The problem is were talking about a huge amount of money. But we have the the money (Medicare, Medicaid), so people hold back. What about those pork barrel spending John McCain keeps talking about, what about those last-minute add-ons to Apropriations Bills. Hay...So how are politicians not corrupt? It's part of human nature.

I'm just tired now. -_- Letz be friendz ^_^ and talk about Pocket Monsters...

 

[sims796]

Eh, Ok your right. That disillusion to the world you are describing has already started to occur to me. If you asked me Political questions on the 2006 Elections, I would have blindly stated: "The Republicans are right we should stay in the Middle East to fight the terrorists. So I support the Republicans." I keet on repeating, Yes, we need experience but we need to be also aware. Also I've already repeated many times the world IS GREY. :D Hmm...My classmates were looking at me funny when I started saying such things. They think I'm weird for being realistic that life is hard.You can vote but we can PROTEST (LOL :P) heh...I just want this to be more positive.

Want to talk about corruption? "Why do we still don't have Universal Healthcare?" when every other "Modern" Western Country does. The problem is were talking about a huge amount of money. But we have the the money (Medicare, Medicaid), so people hold back. What about those pork barrel spending John McCain keeps talking about, what about those last-minute add-ons to Apropriations Bills. Hay...So how are politicians not corrupt? It's part of human nature.

I'm just tired now. -_- Letz be friendz ^_^ and talk about Pocket Monsters...

And as I said, more than three times, that you need both experience & to be aware. Don't make me repeat it, please.

We can keep ourselves informed, but it will never match experience. And as I keep saying, over 9000 tyemz, we can still have a voice, but their is a reason the young cannot vote. We can try our best to get the message across, however, I never disputed that. Well, yaw'll can try. I can vote. Burn. Epic burn. (Although I said it 9001 teimz, I never made it this clear. Didn't think I'd have too)

a

So don't repeat it yourself. All you are doing is repeating everything I say, only in a simplier way. I won't go all multi quoting, as i laxz teh knowledge.

We are in a national debt. Been so for a while. I won't go into detail, as I don't have em' all at the time. We do not have the money. Hell, there was just a huge Wall Street backlash, affecting everyone in the US, trader or not. The 7 billion (million?) dollar bail out failed, as we just don't have the funds for it. We do not have the money. I'm not saying politics isn't corrupt, and that everything is peachy keen, but at the same time, things are not a simple as you think. It cannot just be chalked down to just "they're corrupted, and are doing it for teh cash".

You're just proving what I mean. I keep sayin gthis, while taking on your points, but it doesn't get through exactly, and it ends up with you nearly repeating everything. Ironically, the elder members got what I meant perfectly.

 

[TRIFORCE89]

I think we need all need to watch the Mr. Lisa Goes to Washington episode of the Simpsons XD

 

[sims796]

Actually, Brian's ex put it perfectly. "I think the government does things we don't know about, and truthishly, we should accept that."

A quote of epic win.

 

[Netto Azure]

And as I said, more than three times, that you need both experience & to be aware. Don't make me repeat it, please.

a

So don't repeat it yourself. All you are doing is repeating everything I say, only in a simplier way. I won't go all multi quoting, as i laxz teh knowledge.

We are in a national debt. Been so for a while. I won't go into detail, as I don't have em' all at the time. We do not have the money. Hell, there was just a huge Wall Street backlash, affecting everyone in the US, trader or not. The 7 billion (million?) dollar bail out failed, as we just don't have the funds for it. We do not have the money. I'm not saying politics isn't corrupt, and that everything is peachy keen, but at the same time, things are not a simple as you think. It cannot just be chalked down to just "they're corrupted, and are doing it for teh cash".

You're just proving what I mean. I keep sayin gthis, while taking on your points, but it doesn't get through exactly, and it ends up with you nearly repeating everything. Ironically, the elder members got what I meant perfectly.

Uh...hay, why were we arguing again. Ok your message went through. Don't worry, I know not all polticians are in it for the money. I'm not chalking it down to "Every politician is a bad guy" I know many of them are doing it for the good of the constituents. But they have to work within the structured system so they appear "bad" as such. Why do have to make it appear as if I'm over simplifying everything and that I don't know what I'm talking about. Yes, yes, experience, experience, I know about the budget deficit. Why have we gotten this deficit? The external answer is obvious. Also the bail-out hasn't failed yet, it's still being implemented. Most of the Stock Market crash is due to fear and that people are going away from stocks and stashing their money away.

I think we need all need to watch the Mr. Lisa Goes to Washington episode of the Simpsons XD

Funny episode, the Stereotype disillusionment to Washington Politics. IF ONLY getting caught was that easy.

Actually, Brian's ex put it perfectly. "I think the government does things we don't know about, and truthishly, we should accept that."

A quote of epic win.

xP This discussion has been constructive. I see parallels between this and the old Obama vs. McCain experience arguments. Yes, "We should accept that" :P So let's put this behind us and talk about the issues.

Well we have gotten off-topic. So the Stock Market is still crashing, everybody is still gittery.

Well any other topic you guys want to bring up, both candidates have devolved into mudslinging for the last month of the campaign.
We have already talked about Off-shore oil drilling, Healthcare, Education, Energy Independence, Immigration, the Economy, the candidates "skeleton's" in the closets.
So bring up topics.​

 

[sims796]

We are arguing because this is a debate thread. I don't want camp fire songs & puppy dogs in a debate thread >=[. We...debate. Says it in the title.

We never gotten off topic, this is a legitimate issue that must be discussed.

Yeah, the bail-out, the bailout that is >9000 dollars (in Mexican money, of course) failed, and we are looking ito alternative ways of dealing with the crash. Global leader gete together & such. Now, how would this affect the common people at hand? There is no obvious answer to the cause of the cash. No fat cats involved directly, at least, and no one really gains from this. I'd like to hear the obvious external answer, that goes beyond "corruption".

As I said, this is a legitimate topic, not an off-topic argument. "The inexperience of todays youths may lead to blah blah blah".

 

[Allstories]

I've been hearing from people I know (mostly in swing states) about receiving a DVD of this movie in the mail:

Good grief. We sure don't mess around when it comes to propaganda. Apparently, they did something similar last election with United 93. I doubt you'd see something like this anywhere else in the world.

 

[Raff]

Heres my answer...

I believe with both Candidates. BUT I also Believe in the war..what if they INVADE us, and then fight in our country destroying our stuff? exactly why it is not available now. YES the terrorist are IN AFGHANISTAN. But we also need people, who support the freedoms. Such as, The Right to Bare Arms..and Freedom of Speech. Those seem, to have seemed to have deteriorated over the years..how can we call AMERICA a FREE COUNTRY when it is so twisted? And yes, we need the right to bare arms..

 

[TRIFORCE89]

I've been hearing from people I know (mostly in swing states) about receiving a DVD of this movie in the mail:

Good grief. We sure don't mess around when it comes to propaganda. Apparently, they did something similar last election with United 93. I doubt you'd see something like this anywhere else in the world.

Last year's Ontario Provincial election. The Liberals were up for re-election and after slapping Ontario with the largest health tax in Ontario's history after saying he wouldn't raise the tax at all, it looked like a Progressive Conservative win was a sure thing. However, the PC candidate took an unpopular stance on something.

In a nut shell, here in Canada public schools and Catholic schools are publicly funded. Catholic schools are only really funded to keep the French population happy, so the probability Catholic funding being stopped is slim-to-non. So, the UN stepped in and said that we either have to stop Catholic funding or fund other private and specialty schools because it's unfair otherwise. Not-funding Catholic schools is not an option, so that only leaves you with one choice - funding them all...and that' what the PC candidate backed.

Mind you, the bit about the UN never really went through the media like it should have. Instead, the Liberals spread it around as "public funding for religions" and in some cases Liberal members and supporters when going door to door in their riding would ask the potential-voter if they felt comfortable with their tax-dollars supporting Muslim schools specifically. That is low and that is wrong and for some reason that flew. The PCs lost big time and the leader candidate didn't even get elected in his own riding all because of this non-issue. And one of the first things that happened when the Liberals got re-elected? Why publicly funded black specialty schools of course. <_<

 

[Netto Azure]

heh...

We are arguing because this is a debate thread. I don't want camp fire songs & puppy dogs in a debate thread >=[. We...debate. Says it in the title.

We never gotten off topic, this is a legitimate issue that must be discussed.

Yeah, the bail-out, the bailout that is >9000 dollars (in Mexican money, of course) failed, and we are looking ito alternative ways of dealing with the crash. Global leader get together & such. Now, how would this affect the common people at hand? There is no obvious answer to the cause of the crash. No fat cats involved directly, at least, and no one really gains from this. I'd like to hear the obvious external answer, that goes beyond "corruption".

As I said, this is a legitimate topic, not an off-topic argument. "The inexperience of todays youths may lead to blah blah blah".

Ok. I agree us youth still neds to learn a lot of things. But since this is a "Representative Democracy" please don't smash our "idealistic" view of the world. :P
Well anyways the Central Banks around the world did get together yesterday to "deal" with this through the usual rate cuts. A lot of reasons contributed to the crash as I said earlier so the blame can be handed around pretty easily.

As for obvious reasons for the budget deficit: The general War on Terror (Defense Expenditure), The general "Bail-out" of the Financial Market (2FM, AIG, Bear Sterns, etc.), [Social Programs (Social Security, Medicaid, Medical) Don't get me wrong I'm for these social programs, just pointing out how expensive they are generally]

Edit: The National Debt clock in New York has run out of space. Just shows you how much "change" the past 8 years has brought us.

 

[sims796]

Bah. War on Terror. Moar leik war on ninjas, amirite? I swear, I saw Ganadorf give Garaa a ride in that picture. And doesn't the one in the right look liek he's developing hand signals?

Want to talk about corruption? "Why do we still don't have Universal Healthcare?" when every other "Modern" Western Country does. The problem is were talking about a huge amount of money. But we have the the money (Medicare, Medicaid), so people hold back. What about those pork barrel spending John McCain keeps talking about, what about those last-minute add-ons to Apropriations Bills. Hay...So how are politicians not corrupt? It's part of human nature.

It's getting a bit hard to understand...where you stand. You say one thing, then swap to the opposite, and repeat just what I have on my post. It's confusing.

Well, regardless, I'm glad that this whole crash may blow over if all goes well. Of course, things are never that simple, but they aren't always complicated. Deep...I r an geneous. And this whole "pull out" thing people keep saying, well, it also ain't that easy. While my views are largley democratic, we lose the --how to say this for uderstanding-- "repsect" of the the other nations, and democracy as a whole takes a burn.

 

[Aurafire]

Edit: The National Debt clock in New York has run out of space. Just shows you how much "change" the past 8 years has brought us.

Sure the war on terror is going to cost a lot of money. It's a war, for crying out loud. If it's not well funded, the cost will be paid for in American lives. Some might argue that the war wasn't necessary in the first place. I'll disagree with that, but I think we can all agree that the war was mismanaged and could have been dealt with a lot more efficiently than this. This might sound cruel to some, but if you can remember very early in the war, we carried out a very many bombing raids on various terrorist hide outs. Well that's all well and good, but why did we stop? Yes, the risk of collateral damage is much greater, but I'll tell you what: Our selectivity with the areas we bomb has cost us billions of dollars and thousands of American lives. One could argue that a more aggressive approach would have yielded much quicker results...yes the collateral damage would have been much greater and many innocent people would have died. But think about the 6 or so years we have been fighting in the Middle East, and think about the massive cost of this war. With greater time, more people are guaranteed to be killed, both soldiers and civilians. Once again, this will sounds cruel to some, but I would have favored much more aggressive bombing raids and decreased selectivity on the areas that were raided. If there was even a hint of terrorist activity in a certain area, you can bet I would want our military to go in hot and heavy.

Now before everyone jumps down my throat, think about it: More civilian lives lost in the long term. Yes, that is a down side, but think about all the American lives we would have saved. Think about all the money we wouldn't have to spend for years of of combat on the ground. Think about all the civilian lives LONG TERM that would have been saved. We obviously would have had to send in troops, but the job would have been much quicker and easier with less terrorists to root out. We've been in the Middle East for years now, uncovering hide outs and such, and it has cost billions to keep the troops well funded. It just goes to show how deep their networks a woven in. I hate to say it, but the strategy we've been using for the past however many years was not the right one. This war could have been over a year after it started.

I suppose now a days a strategy like mine is considered too violent and indecent for todays moral compass, but I invite everyone to look back at the end of World War II, when we dropped the H bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Something like 100000 innocent Japanese lives were lost! That is a staggering number, and at first glance could be considered too hefty a cost. But think about how many American lives were saved. Instead of an invasion, which would have cost thousands and thousands of troops and an incredible amount of money, we did the cruel thing and killed the innocent. But guess what? We won the war.

Meh....that's just what I think. Feel free to comment, and don't hate me too much =P.