UU Suspects Discussion

[Anti]

Fantastic ability to sense a joke.

=/

Uh, you're REALLY exaggerating the recoil damage from Brave Bird. The standard Staraptor has 312 HP, when using Brave Bird on max HP / max Defense Slowbro, Staraptor takes 81 damage from recoil assuming it rolls maximum damage. 81 is not even half of Staraptor's total HP, in fact, it's not even a third of its total HP. Staraptor deals 246 damage to the standard Spiritomb if rolling max damage. A third of that is 82. Staraptor can do that twice, and only receive 164 damage total, a little over half its HP. Now, you may think "It's killing itself, it can't sweep", which is wrong, since now Staraptor has killed a wall on the opponents team. It's served its purpose.

I know it only does a third, but something with 80 base HP (a pretty standard amount) has 301 HP minimum, which rips off 100 HP, and SR rips off 78 HP. That's taking off more than half its health, and considering what it probably will have to go through to get into the ring, it pretty much does kill itself.

The same could be said for Salamence, Gyarados, Zapdos, and Dragonite, yet they all remain prominent threats in OU.

Yeah, Staraptor is a prominent threat, but like Staraptor, I really doesn't have any trouble with Gyarados, Zapdos, and Dragonite (Salamence is tricky but w/e lol).

If Staraptor can kill 3-4 Pokemon on your team, I'd call that kind of ridiculous. Let's not forget it doesn't only use Brave Bird. It can still use Return, which deals a hefty amount to everything that doesn't resist it, and kills fragile sweepers such as Medicham, Blaziken, and co.



Unlike Staraptor, Raikou and Shaymin have counters.

rofl. I'm just curious, but where is your "Salamence is Uber" thread? I have yet to find a legit CBMence counter. What's so different here? "It has no counters" isn't the definition of Uber and you know it. This suspect test is based off of three characteristics (one for support, defense, and offense) and under none of the three is counters mentioned. Let's have a look, shall we?

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Significant portion of teams? I don't think so. I won't deny its ability to take out 1 or 2 pretty easily given the right circumstances (as in it comes in on CBGolem's Earthquake or something along those lines). With little effort? Again, I'm a little "eh" on this, because Staraptor's user has to be a predicting machine and again, it can't get itself killed.

Okay, same could be said for any CBer.

I even said that. But not every CBer takes so damage from getting in and sometimes from trying to get its kills.

This is certainly true, there's nothing I can disagree with there.

^_^

There still is literally no counter to Salamence, if only because his versatility is too damn sheer. Staraptor has the versatility of a brain dead chimp, yet its sheer power kills practically everything that doesn't resist its moveset. I guess the same could be said about DD Mence, but things like Hippowdon and Cresselia can live DD boosted Life Orb Outrages and OHKO assuming Salamence isn't running Yache.

Salamence's sheer power does the same as Staraptor's with a Choice Band or even Choice Specs. It's probably OU's best sweeper for the reasons we both have mentioned, and is a lot like Staraptor except for versatility. But "SR" is basically the counter to any Salamence Ubers argument. Staraptor kind of reminds me of Salamence was what I was getting at.

My teem beets garchomp its cloyster / cresselia / hippowdon / mamoswine / weavile / scarfchomp. i hvae no troublez wit garchomp unban it it not brok3n.

Mine didn't and my Garchomp defense was Sub/CM Suicune and a Mamoswine =)

If you take that seriously I'll Brave Bird your face.

My response wasn't either so if you take that seriously I will Dragon Rush in your face and probably miss and get OHKOed by Ice Beam.

Counters =/= Offensive Characteristic. Could counters support an argument for its ban based upon that? Sure, but you have to make the connection, and no counters alone doesn't make something broken, as Salamence shows us in the next tier up.

and that's why I think Shaymin is a better candidate than Staraptor and frankly I'm surprised it isn't a suspect. It's quite bulky and can hit about anything bar Chansey hard with Seed Flare/Earth Power/Air Slash/Rest@LO while being hard to kill and speedy as well.

I don't know, something that relies on a 1/3 recoil inducing move to net a lot of its kills while being weak to SR and having terrible defenses doesn't sound very broken to me.

 

[.]

I know it only does a third, but something with 80 base HP (a pretty standard amount) has 301 HP minimum, which rips off 100 HP, and SR rips off 78 HP. That's taking off more than half its health, and considering what it probably will have to go through to get into the ring, it pretty much does kill itself.

No argument here.

Yeah, Staraptor is a prominent threat, but like Staraptor, I really doesn't have any trouble with Gyarados, Zapdos, and Dragonite (Salamence is tricky but w/e lol).

yeah dood my teem doesn hvae troublez wit garchomp they shuld unban it.

rofl. I'm just curious, but where is your "Salamence is Uber" thread? I have yet to find a legit CBMence counter. What's so different here? "It has no counters" isn't the definition of Uber and you know it. This suspect test is based off of three characteristics (one for support, defense, and offense) and under none of the three is counters mentioned. Let's have a look, shall we?

Salamence actually has a few decent checks, Cresselia can live a DD boosted Life Orb Outrage and OHKO it with Ice Beam, Hippowdon takes physical versions decently (NOTE DECENTLY). Then there's revenge killing, but that applies to everything so let's ignore that.

Significant portion of teams? I don't think so. I won't deny its ability to take out 1 or 2 pretty easily given the right circumstances (as in it comes in on CBGolem's Earthquake or something along those lines). With little effort? Again, I'm a little "eh" on this, because Staraptor's user has to be a predicting machine and again, it can't get itself killed.

I realize Brave Bird decimates itself, but you're going to have to be predicting over and under to take a hit from Staraptor, and a single error can lead to you losing one of your Pokemon. Say I have a Registeel out on the field, he has a Staraptor. I predict the Close Combat, but I feel that he's going to Brave Bird since I'm just a prediction freak like that. He Close Combats, my Registeel goes down. Now I bring in my Fighting resist. I scare it out.

So, what happened here? I lost a Pokemon, he killed a Pokemon. Simple as that. There's more extreme examples but that's the most basic one I could come up with, don't shoot me.

Salamence's sheer power does the same as Staraptor's with a Choice Band or even Choice Specs. It's probably OU's best sweeper for the reasons we both have mentioned, and is a lot like Staraptor except for versatility. But "SR" is basically the counter to any Salamence Ubers argument. Staraptor kind of reminds me of Salamence was what I was getting at.

So you agree Staraptor is a monster that, if the opponent predicts wrong, can rip your throat out?

Mine didn't and my Garchomp defense was Sub/CM Suicune and a Mamoswine =)

Ironically Electivire handles these two threats. Your team may handle Garchomp but it loses to Electivire!

My response wasn't either so if you take that seriously I will Dragon Rush in your face and probably miss and get OHKOed by Ice Beam

Get some Wide Lenses.

Counters =/= Offensive Characteristic. Could counters support an argument for its ban based upon that? Sure, but you have to make the connection, and no counters alone doesn't make something broken, as Salamence shows us in the next tier up.

I can't piece together what you are saying, but yes, if a Pokemon doesn't have a counter it's a step closer to being broken.

and that's why I think Shaymin is a better candidate than Staraptor and frankly I'm surprised it isn't a suspect. It's quite bulky and can hit about anything bar Chansey hard with Seed Flare/Earth Power/Air Slash/Rest@LO while being hard to kill and speedy as well.

I agree with this, Shaymin walks all over the bulky waters, since Ice Beam can't kill it in a hit, plus Shaymin outspeeds all the Water-types and 2HKOs it with ease. It's a very underrated threat (much like Mamoswine!)

I don't know, something that relies on a 1/3 recoil inducing move to net a lot of its kills while being weak to SR and having terrible defenses doesn't sound very broken to me.

I don't know, something that relies on locking itself into a move to net a lot of kills while being weak to Stealth Rock and have mediocre speed doesn't sound threatening to me. (No, it's not Salamence or Nite, take a guess).

 

[Anti]

Salamence actually has a few decent checks, Cresselia can live a DD boosted Life Orb Outrage and OHKO it with Ice Beam, Hippowdon takes physical versions decently (NOTE DECENTLY). Then there's revenge killing, but that applies to everything so let's ignore that.

CBMence doesn't. I don't really think DDMence is a good comparison since Staraptor doesn't get DD...but I guess that's why it's just a comparison lol.

I realize Brave Bird decimates itself, but you're going to have to be predicting over and under to take a hit from Staraptor, and a single error can lead to you losing one of your Pokemon. Say I have a Registeel out on the field, he has a Staraptor. I predict the Close Combat, but I feel that he's going to Brave Bird since I'm just a prediction freak like that. He Close Combats, my Registeel goes down. Now I bring in my Fighting resist. I scare it out.

So, what happened here? I lost a Pokemon, he killed a Pokemon. Simple as that. There's more extreme examples but that's the most basic one I could come up with, don't shoot me.

No, I see what you're saying, but it rarely gets more than two opportunities to do that. And it has to predict right or it doesn't do anything. If it was Ground/Flying instead of Normal/Flygin and 30 more base SDef then it would probably be an easy ban. But it gets worn down so fast that the situation you presented, while perfectly reasonable, doesn't pop up much.

So you agree Staraptor is a monster that, if the opponent predicts wrong, can rip your throat out?

Yes.

I can't piece together what you are saying, but yes, if a Pokemon doesn't have a counter it's a step closer to being broken.

It depends though. CB Dragonite (despite RaikouLover's staunch support of it) isn't exactly a great set so it obviously isn't going to be banned. I mean having no counters doesn't hurt, but that alone doesn't make Staraptor even close to broken.

And sorry about rehashing Dragonite and Salamence but they're the only two good comparisons.

I don't know, something that relies on locking itself into a move to net a lot of kills while being weak to Stealth Rock and have mediocre speed doesn't sound threatening to me. (No, it's not Salamence or Nite, take a guess).

Glaceon? idk lol

Even though Staraptor can be terrifying, remember that it has to be with little effort (which is hardly true since it takes a convoy to get it in without taking 45963467935% damage), but more importantly, SR beats it down and its main attack is basically a suicide move. It's not like Explosion or anything, but it can have that effect at times. also, it can't sweep through a significant portion of teams, a) because it's banded and, b) because it dies in a heartbeat.

Staraptor has done damage to my team before but never where I've said "man, this thing should be banned" because it ends up dying before it can unleash the terror we both agree it can unleash.

I know I'm rehashing my argument here but I don't think Staraptor fits the offensive characteristic as well as even Shaymin. Shaymin is the best mid-game sweeper I have ever used. It just takes out EVERYTHING and doesn't die in the process.

 

[Sebastien Loeb]

Mah, Crobat can be us in UU as Abomasnow in fact they are fundamental for based team on hail or other climatic changes, instead Raikou in UU is scandalous, with Choice Specs, or worse with CalmKou to whole metagame is devastated.

 

[.]

CBMence doesn't. I don't really think DDMence is a good comparison since Staraptor doesn't get DD...but I guess that's why it's just a comparison lol.

CB Outrage does 2HKO Cresselia, that I admit, but it requires Stealth Rock...ugh I'm really starting to hate that move. Otherwise, both of them have an "eh" chance of being 3HKOed.

No, I see what you're saying, but it rarely gets more than two opportunities to do that. And it has to predict right or it doesn't do anything. If it was Ground/Flying instead of Normal/Flygin and 30 more base SDef then it would probably be an easy ban. But it gets worn down so fast that the situation you presented, while perfectly reasonable, doesn't pop up much.

Those two opprotunities could destroy you if your prediction is off.

It depends though. CB Dragonite (despite RaikouLover's staunch support of it) isn't exactly a great set so it obviously isn't going to be banned. I mean having no counters doesn't hurt, but that alone doesn't make Staraptor even close to broken.

It isn't a great set because CB Mence outclasses it 100% of the time lol.

And sorry about rehashing Dragonite and Salamence but they're the only two good comparisons.

No problem.

Even though Staraptor can be terrifying, remember that it has to be with little effort (which is hardly true since it takes a convoy to get it in without taking 45963467935% damage), but more importantly, SR beats it down and its main attack is basically a suicide move. It's not like Explosion or anything, but it can have that effect at times. also, it can't sweep through a significant portion of teams, a) because it's banded and, b) because it dies in a heartbeat

This is why LonelyNess's SubRoost set is so unexpected.

Staraptor has done damage to my team before but never where I've said "man, this thing should be banned" because it ends up dying before it can unleash the terror we both agree it can unleash.

yeh dood 1 tiem a garchomp ohkod my cloyster wit crit outrage but i was like "lol u suck, i can beet you" it shuldnt be banned.

I know I'm rehashing my argument here but I don't think Staraptor fits the offensive characteristic as well as even Shaymin. Shaymin is the best mid-game sweeper I have ever used. It just takes out EVERYTHING and doesn't die in the process.

Eat Calm Mind Regice.


The thing I was talking about is Rayquaza by the way, the second (or third) strongest Pokemon in the whole gaem x]

 

[Anti]

Yeah, two opportunities could destroy you. You can say that about a lot of CBers that have very few counters (Gallade comes to mind but you don't want that banned which I am confused by). But seriously, the chance to destroy you just oozes theorymon. A chance doesn't usually mean that it actually does. And a low chance of taking out one or two Pokemon isn't going to convince me to get Staraptor banned. BTW, you can throw Rotom on your team if you fear it THAT much. It's not like you're required to fear it and try to predict around it.

The thing about SubRoost is that it has to set up. It's a good way to stop teams that try to status it, but it's no more broken than CB Staraptor (and I know you didn't say it was, just saying).

But this is all avoiding what determines this: the offensive characteristic. Can you tell me that Staraptor can sweep through a significant portion of teams with little effort? the last part really shoots down it getting banned imo, and that can shoot down the first part to some extent. I just don't see how, with that definition of Uber/BL (which I like a lot btw), you can call Staraptor a broken Pokemon.

 

[.]

Yeah, two opportunities could destroy you. You can say that about a lot of CBers that have very few counters (Gallade comes to mind but you don't want that banned which I am confused by).

Gallade does have a counter in Spiritomb, so I'm comfortable with him in UU.

But seriously, the chance to destroy you just oozes theorymon. A chance doesn't usually mean that it actually does.

I was basing my argument over what you said ^__^ You're guilty of using theorymon too then.

And a low chance of taking out one or two Pokemon isn't going to convince me to get Staraptor banned. BTW, you can throw Rotom on your team if you fear it THAT much. It's not like you're required to fear it and try to predict around it.

Rotom?

CB Brave Bird vs. Max HP / Max Def Rotom: 42%-50%

2HKOs 93% of the time with Stealth Rock.

The thing about SubRoost is that it has to set up. It's a good way to stop teams that try to status it, but it's no more broken than CB Staraptor (and I know you didn't say it was, just saying).

Tell that to LonelyNess!

But this is all avoiding what determines this: the offensive characteristic. Can you tell me that Staraptor can sweep through a significant portion of teams with little effort?

Yes, I've seen it, I've done it, I've been a victim of it. It's all too easy with its great speed and its Brave Bird. Of course, I hate using examples based of my experiances, which is why I was making fun of you earlier with that "my teem is garchomp proof" :P

the last part really shoots down it getting banned imo, and that can shoot down the first part to some extent. I just don't see how, with that definition of Uber/BL (which I like a lot btw), you can call Staraptor a broken Pokemon.

I'm tired of arguing for my point. Read my other arguments for the answer =(

 

[Anti]

Gallade does have a counter in Spiritomb, so I'm comfortable with him in UU.

rofl, so that all of a sudden means that Gallade can't sweep a significant portion of other teams with little effort because it has one counter? You're joking, right? Trust me, I could come up with 10 centralized Staraptor counters if you really want (defensive Choice Scarf Milotic is a go!) If you're not going to follow the definition of Uber/BL then you're wasting your time posting in this thread, because having one counter doesn't mean you're all-of-a-sudden not broken. That's just ridiculous.

I was basing my argument over what you said ^__^ You're guilty of using theorymon too then.

I guess so, but if you need theorymon to prove it's broken then it clearly isn't. I guess you could say the same thing about my argument, but my argument shows that Staraptor can't do significant damage "with little" effort...and my other reasons prove that further.

Rotom?

CB Brave Bird vs. Max HP / Max Def Rotom: 42%-50%

2HKOs 93% of the time with Stealth Rock.

First post is full of lies

Scarf it and you have a counter!

Tell that to LonelyNess!

I'd be happy to.

Yes, I've seen it, I've done it, I've been a victim of it. It's all too easy with its great speed and its Brave Bird. Of course, I hate using examples based of my experiances, which is why I was making fun of you earlier with that "my teem is garchomp proof" :P

Quite the opposite of what I've encountered. It's never taken out more than one team member as far as I can remember...and my team hardly is prepared for it lol.

I'm tired of arguing for my point. Read my other arguments for the answer =(

Answer it directly since nothing in your argument does. Actually, your argument contradicts it since you say "well, it can devastate" and not "it will or almost always will devastate" like you would think would be the case with something that takes little effort to sweep a significant portion of the opponent's team =\

You do realize that you're only weakening your own case by bring up "counters counters counters" all the time, right? Because that's an early DP definition of Uber at best. lol

 

[.]

rofl, so that all of a sudden means that Gallade can't sweep a significant portion of other teams with little effort because it has one counter?

No, it means it can be stopped.

You're joking, right? Trust me, I could come up with 10 centralized Staraptor counters if you really want (defensive Choice Scarf Milotic is a go!)

Joke alarm went off right there.

If you're not going to follow the definition of Uber/BL then you're wasting your time posting in this thread, because having one counter doesn't mean you're all-of-a-sudden not broken. That's just ridiculous.

Having a counter means you can be stopped. I'm not saying Gallade isn't a tough Pokemon to handle, I know it's a monster, and I apologize if my post came off as me saying "Gallade isn't monstrous because is has a counter".

guess so, but if you need theorymon to prove it's broken then it clearly isn't. I guess you could say the same thing about my argument, but my argument shows that Staraptor can't do significant damage "with little" effort...and my other reasons prove that further.

Some teams are prepared for Staraptor, other ones aren't. Sadly, to be prepared for it you need a good sense of prediction, and resistances/immunties to its STAB Attacks and Close Combat. Let's not forget a small bit of wrong prediction can screw up your whole plan. Registeel + Spiritomb works well, but if someone Brave Birds your Spiritomb, and it dies, now you've lost your only chances of beating it.

Quite the opposite of what I've encountered. It's never taken out more than one team member as far as I can remember...and my team hardly is prepared for it lol.

yeah dude my team never died to garchomp we shuldn't ban it !!111

Answer it directly since nothing in your argument does. Actually, your argument contradicts it since you say "well, it can devastate" and not "it will or almost always will devastate" like you would think would be the case with something that takes little effort to sweep a significant portion of the opponent's team =\

You're right, my argument sort of contradicts itself. ;__; I can only speak from experiance, that without a bonafied Staraptor defensive core (needs to resist BB, CC, and Return/DE), it will destroy you. Same could be said for other Pokemon, however, in order to handle Staraptor, you need more than one Pokemon (I'm gonna ignore revenge killing, since I realize it's a stupid argument). Misprediction, or overprediction from your opponent can cause you to lose Staraptor insurance, meaning you could lose. Gallade is stopped by Spiritomb, true, although it HAS the potential to 2HKO with SD boosted Stone Edge, Sneak 2HKOs it thanks to Life Orb recoil.

 

[Anti]

Your post came off that way because that's exactly what you said (well, almost, I'll explain in a sec). you said:

"Gallade does have a counter in Spiritomb, so I'm comfortable with him in UU."

You are saying that you are fine with Gallade in UUs because it has one counter. You can't just say that and expect to be taken seriously =/ Spiritomb being the only way to "stop" it only makes it sound more broken, not the opposite.

If you bring up counters, you have to explain why that makes it broken, because standing alone it's a horrible argument (as CB Salamence shows us?) This is exactly why the Lati@s thread is on the verge of being closed and why this one could be going down the same path - counters do not matter. If you don't think so, take it up with Smogon and their definition. But that's what we're going by and "golly gee, it has a counter so it's cool" isn't a valid argument. Now listen, I know you probably just messed up your wording, but that's basically what you're saying for Staraptor too. Let's throw in the worst of the Rotom formes into UUs for a second, a surefire counter to Staraptor. Of course that doesn't help it since that's another way to beat it, but I think it would be might silly to say that it would make or break where it went in the tiers.

Revenge killing is hardly a bad argument for it either since it takes so much damage coming in from SR and the attack it will likely take. Normally it is a pretty poor argument for a Choice attacker, but you mustn't forget its SR and weather weak (which I haven't even brought up) and the fact that it's not that difficult to revenge kill without a centralized revenge killer (like a Scarf Milotic lol). You can throw in LO Shaymin and one-shot it with HP Ice or even Seed Flare pretty easily. So if I lose my darling Spiritomb, it's not like I lose like you suggest. Besides, it's at 40% health now (due to Brave Bird recoil and SR) and it's easy pickings.

And let's go back to Salamence. Let's pretend it has no access to any special attack except the Fire-typed and lacks Dragon Dance, so its only viable damaging set is a Choice Band or SubRoost set (sound familiar?) Still, CBMence has no counters in the OU tier with a Choice Band. How is Salamence any different from Staraptor (especially since they're both SS/SR weak)? In fact, Salamence actually has something in the form of resistances and defensive stats, but when people bring that up for the Uber tier, it is shot down. What is the difference? How come counters seem to matter so much in this circumstance but not in another?

We are going strictly by Smogon's definition here which is why I reject your argument as much as I did the one for Garchomp - Having or not having counters is such a ridiculous way of going about things that it really shouldn't even be taken seriously, and if you bring up counters, you need to be prepared to explain in full detail how that contributes to it fitting the definition of Uber/BL Smogon has produced. If you don't, your argument is not valid regardless of what side or Pokemon you're arguing for. It's that simple.

Now I'll give you the opportunity to rework your argument. Go ahead and present it to us free of responding to what I have said (since the purpose of this post is more to say that no counters is an invalid and backwards argument rather than to try to prove how not BL Staraptor is or whatever...most of what I said about Staraptor was an example more than anything else) and free of what I just mentioned - the mentality that somehow the number and quality of the suspect's counters somehow determines how broken or not broken it is. Obviously it has an effect, but it's not even close to the sole determining factor. I guarantee that if this thread proceeds with such a mentality, it will be closed. I linked to the "new" definition of Uber/BL in the first post.

So yeah. Don't take it as me scolding you since that's not really what I'm trying to accomplish, more that your argument kind of does fit under the whole counter mentality thing. Now why don't we "restart" this thread with the countering nonsense behind us?

EDIT: Oh, this also applies to revenge killers and checks too (assuming that it's the basis of your argument, just like with counters...I am in no way saying that they are invalid parts of an argument, just invalid as whole arguments).

 

[.]

You are saying that you are fine with Gallade in UUs because it has one counter. You can't just say that and expect to be taken seriously =/ Spiritomb being the only way to "stop" it only makes it sound more broken, not the opposite.

You could look at it two ways then; one counter makes it seem broken, and one counter makes it seem controlled and not broken.

If you bring up counters, you have to explain why that makes it broken, because standing alone it's a horrible argument (as CB Salamence shows us?) This is exactly why the Lati@s thread is on the verge of being closed and why this one could be going down the same path - counters do not matter. If you don't think so, take it up with Smogon and their definition. But that's what we're going by and "golly gee, it has a counter so it's cool" isn't a valid argument. Now listen, I know you probably just messed up your wording, but that's basically what you're saying for Staraptor too. Let's throw in the worst of the Rotom formes into UUs for a second, a surefire counter to Staraptor. Of course that doesn't help it since that's another way to beat it, but I think it would be might silly to say that it would make or break where it went in the tiers.

Now I can understand what you're saying, although I still feel counters do matter, I can see what you're saying.

Revenge killing is hardly a bad argument for it either since it takes so much damage coming in from SR and the attack it will likely take. Normally it is a pretty poor argument for a Choice attacker, but you mustn't forget its SR and weather weak (which I haven't even brought up) and the fact that it's not that difficult to revenge kill without a centralized revenge killer (like a Scarf Milotic lol). You can throw in LO Shaymin and one-shot it with HP Ice or even Seed Flare pretty easily. So if I lose my darling Spiritomb, it's not like I lose like you suggest. Besides, it's at 40% health now (due to Brave Bird recoil and SR) and it's easy pickings.

Speed tie? I can understand what you're saying, but revenge killing means that everything is able to be stopped. Rayquaza, Deoxys-A, even Mewtwo could all be classified as "not broken" if you use this logic of revenge killing. I'm assuming you're trying to say that that even if a counter goes down, something else can kill it, thus it's an argument to why something shouldn't be classified as broken (?).

And let's go back to Salamence. Let's pretend it has no access to any special attack except the Fire-typed and lacks Dragon Dance, so its only viable damaging set is a Choice Band or SubRoost set (sound familiar?) Still, CBMence has no counters in the OU tier with a Choice Band. How is Salamence any different from Staraptor (especially since they're both SS/SR weak)? In fact, Salamence actually has something in the form of resistances and defensive stats, but when people bring that up for the Uber tier, it is shot down. What is the difference? How come counters seem to matter so much in this circumstance but not in another?

Salamence is, call me crazy but I'm going there, a little easier to handle since Outrage locks it in. I could sacrifice something such as a weakened Lucario while doing around 25%ish to it with Extremespeed, and then have something like Hippowdon come in, live the Outrage, and kill it from there with Ice Fang. Staraptor kills itself with Brave Bird, true, there's no argument against that, but Staraptor doesn't spam Brave Bird early in the match, and waits to see the Steel/Rock wall that's there to soak its attacks.

We are going strictly by Smogon's definition here which is why I reject your argument as much as I did the one for Garchomp - Having or not having counters is such a ridiculous way of going about things that it really shouldn't even be taken seriously, and if you bring up counters, you need to be prepared to explain in full detail how that contributes to it fitting the definition of Uber/BL Smogon has produced. If you don't, your argument is not valid regardless of what side or Pokemon you're arguing for. It's that simple.

But if something does have a counter, you must admit handling it is easier than handling something else without a counter (ie. Gallade and Staraptor).

EDIT: Oh, this also applies to revenge killers and checks too (assuming that it's the basis of your argument, just like with counters...I am in no way saying that they are invalid parts of an argument, just invalid as whole arguments).

So, you're saying that revenge killing is a valid argument, or is it not? For both Staraptor and Gallade, you can make multiple arguments for why they are not broken. The main ones for Gallade are Spiritomb, and revenge killing. For Staraptor, the primary arguments are killing itself, and revenge killing. If we cancel out revenge killing as a whole, the things that stop Gallade is Spiritomb, and Staraptor is Stealth Rock and Brave Bird's recoil. Honestly, I find Staraptor more threatening, since while it is killing itself, it's also killing you.

 

[Anti]

My Shaymin is Timid =) ...and Staraptor is usually Adamant (though not always, to be fair).

I'm saying that revenge killing and countering are valid if you don't go overboard. As in, they are only one aspect of your argument (especially with revenge killing since it's a lot more inefficient that countering lol) rather than your argument totally. Your argument needs to be based on Smogon's definition, and while counters and revenge killers can support your argument, none of them even come close to proving that a suspect fits the definition. That's why I'm so against Staraptor being banned - the ONLY thing that differentiates it from other physical sweepers is that it doesn't have any (common) counters, and it needs to lock itself into one move to accomplish that (while in the process forcing itself to have to switch in and out in a world ruled by SR...and it's hard to switch something with bad defenses in on even defensive Pokemon). It has so many drawbacks that I really don't even want to use it on any of my teams. There's a good reason to use it of course which is its sheer power and Brave Bird, but "no counters" is the only thing going for it, which doesn't do it for me and it doesn't do it for Smogon's definition either.

 

[.]

My Shaymin is Timid =) ...and Staraptor is usually Adamant (though not always, to be fair).

Oh, I thought I was being original using Timid. To be fair, if you rely on Shaymin as your Staraptor check, and this Staraptor is Jolly, eh, you know. Speed ties aren't great to base discussions on.

I'm saying that revenge killing and countering are valid if you don't go overboard. As in, they are only one aspect of your argument (especially with revenge killing since it's a lot more inefficient that countering lol) rather than your argument totally. Your argument needs to be based on Smogon's definition, and while counters and revenge killers can support your argument, none of them even come close to proving that a suspect fits the definition.

Okay, I can agree with this.

That's why I'm so against Staraptor being banned - the ONLY thing that differentiates it from other physical sweepers is that it doesn't have any (common) counters, and it needs to lock itself into one move to accomplish that (while in the process forcing itself to have to switch in and out in a world ruled by SR...and it's hard to switch something with bad defenses in on even defensive Pokemon).

Staraptor is one of those things that can be easy to stop, and impossible to stop. It's one of those prediction reliant Pokemon. If you predict right on a resistance, it can be dealt with. However, if Staraptor is able to hit something, and destroy a part of your team, there's sometimes nothing you can do to stop it. Believe me, I've been in situations where the Staraptor user is able to predict the obvious (shouldn't be so obvious) Rock/Steel switch-in. I had no Brave Bird switch-in, and got demolished. I had to end up revenge killing it, but it was such an obvious switch-in (Blaziken to Staraptor). I ended up losing Blaziken and getting swept.

Now, I absolutely hate having to make situations such as these, since sometimes I don't believe other people when they put this in arguments. But believe me, I've lost many battles due to Staraptor just hammering my so called "counters" down to the ground.

It has so many drawbacks that I really don't even want to use it on any of my teams. There's a good reason to use it of course which is its sheer power and Brave Bird, but "no counters" is the only thing going for it, which doesn't do it for me and it doesn't do it for Smogon's definition either.

You could say the same thing about Rayquaza, but it would absolutely end OU.

 

[Anti]

Rayquaza has way more going for it than no counters, namely both attacking stats easily toppling anything OUs has and a tremendous movepool. The SD set would be like SDLuke on crack, and Ray has passable defenses and good enough typing that would allow it to dominate the tier while being nearly impossible not just to counter, but also to revenge kill (Dragon Dance and Xspeed say hello). the difference is that Ray can blow up OUs without getting itself killed in the process and having relatively no reasonable way of dealing with it in general. Add in unpredictability (lol, it has multiple sets that you can't counter) and you've got something that does way more than not having any counters.

If Staraptor's effectiveness is situational than it probably isn't broken, lol. I mean, everything's effectiveness has to do with a situation somewhat, but Staraptor is so hit-or-miss that I find it hard to call broken. Too fragile, too suicidal, too metagame weak (by that I mean weak to common stuff like SR), too risky to be broken. Maybe our playing styles differ, but Staraptor hasn't caused me an ounce of trouble. Staraptor just has way too much trouble getting in. If you let it come in for free everything time then of course it's going to cause problems, but really, it's not very hard to Staraptor-proof your team (Surf from a standard walling Milotic plus SR basically kills it completely to show how easy it is to stop it from coming in). That's another difference it has with something like Garchomp - Garchomp was often praised with having defenses better than Swampert's. The only Pokemon not laughing at Staraptor is Deoxys-A.

 

[Archer]

I'm not terribly concerned if Staraptor ends up BL or not. That said, I believe it does belong in BL, as it really doesn't contribute to the metagame in a positive manner. Before you take the time to tell me about using Smogon's Uber/BL Definitions, I am fully aware of this, but the definitions are incredibly vague and don't really apply at all to choice users, as they would have to sweep solidly, which is nigh impossible with one move.

To be honest, I don't see why we are arguing with theorymon (Also, with Crobat around, I don't see how SR is always up...) when it is clear that it's creating issues. The whole idea behind moving pokemon between tiers is to achieve more balanced and enjoyable metagames. Condsidering the vast possibilities in regards to different situations, factors (SR, SS, etc) and the need for teams to vary, it is impossible to establish just how good any pokemon is. Due to this, I think a certain amount of opinion and logic needs to come into play.

 

[Anti]

I'm not terribly concerned if Staraptor ends up BL or not. That said, I believe it does belong in BL, as it really doesn't contribute to the metagame in a positive manner. Before you take the time to tell me about using Smogon's Uber/BL Definitions, I am fully aware of this, but the definitions are incredibly vague and don't really apply at all to choice users, as they would have to sweep solidly, which is nigh impossible with one move.

To be honest, I don't see why we are arguing with theorymon (Also, with Crobat around, I don't see how SR is always up...) when it is clear that it's creating issues. The whole idea behind moving pokemon between tiers is to achieve more balanced and enjoyable metagames. Condsidering the vast possibilities in regards to different situations, factors (SR, SS, etc) and the need for teams to vary, it is impossible to establish just how good any pokemon is. Due to this, I think a certain amount of opinion and logic needs to come into play.

Opinion and logic are a given for any debate thread o_O

How is any of this theorymon? Staraptor basically being near impossible to counter isn't theorymon, it's just a fact that may or may not affect how you see its status. Theorymon is when you put together situations in a battle based on theory and logic, kind of like what me and Vance were talking about earlier about predicting around it (only that's kind of relevant to the topic). The only issue was getting straight how the Pokemon's status is determined, and Vance and I only disagree. It's pretty much that simple, lol.

And the definition applies to Choice users too, lol. The definition has to be vague or it probably isn't going to be very good (due to how many different ways a Pokemon can be Uber). First of all, choice items are a liability to anything that wants to be Uber for the very reason you mentioned - the user is locked into one move. You can't just ignore that, and if it prevents a Pokemon from sweeping, then it is what it is. How does it not apply to Choice item users when they're so restricted and they're force to switch all the time in a metagame infested with SR? If the definition makes it harder for Choice item users to be bumped up, then so be it, because choice items do have a downside and not having any counters doesn't suddenly take away the downside. what I'm saying is that there is a difference between a Pokemon that is uncounterable with a Choice item and an uncounterable Pokemon without one. The definition would be flawed to ignore that (not to say that everything lies on counters but ugh, just an example).

Also, a lot of leads can't do anything to stop SR from coming out. It's not like Crobat is on every team or that SR can only be set up turn 1. Besides, you can get past Crobat if you really want to (TrickScarf destroyed Crobat and a Scarfed SR user in general can get by it without any problem). SR is on almost every team so don't you think it would be kind of silly to just ignore it or not assume it is going to be up? I mean, every team with SDLuke or DDGyara runs under the assumption that SR will be up.

EDIT: By the way, I think Staraptor has been discussed to its fullest (at this point both arguments have been presented and it's almost just posting to reiterate how we all disagree lol) and we could move on to one of the other ones. We don't have to or anything but I find Raikou and especially Gallade a mess to deal with. Luckily I usually crush it switching in, but it's a beast (@Gallade)

 

[.]

Rayquaza has way more going for it than no counters, namely both attacking stats easily toppling anything OUs has and a tremendous movepool. The SD set would be like SDLuke on crack, and Ray has passable defenses and good enough typing that would allow it to dominate the tier while being nearly impossible not just to counter, but also to revenge kill (Dragon Dance and Xspeed say hello). the difference is that Ray can blow up OUs without getting itself killed in the process and having relatively no reasonable way of dealing with it in general.

Ice Shard, Scarf Gengar, Scarf Metagross, etc...all destroy it. Cresselia lives a hit from any set, even a LO boosted Outrage from the SD set has a 28% chance to OHKO, though SR makes it 100%. Mamoswine OHKOs it, Weavile, Metagross lives SD Extremespeed easy and OHKOs with Ice Punch. Oh my god am I actually making an argument for Rayquaza in OU? No I'm not, I'm just saying revenge killing isn't the best (in fact, isn't even a good) argument.

Add in unpredictability (lol, it has multiple sets that you can't counter) and you've got something that does way more than not having any counters.

Similar to Salamence, except slower and on crack.

If Staraptor's effectiveness is situational than it probably isn't broken, lol. I mean, everything's effectiveness has to do with a situation somewhat, but Staraptor is so hit-or-miss that I find it hard to call broken. Too fragile, too suicidal, too metagame weak (by that I mean weak to common stuff like SR), too risky to be broken. Maybe our playing styles differ, but Staraptor hasn't caused me an ounce of trouble.

I haven't had trouble with Garchomp (LIES), so why is it banned? I'm just trying to say, getting in is the hard part for it. It 2HKOs all physical walls bar Luxray (Double Edge ftw), outspeeds all of them, and has Intimidate to make pitiful attacks like Mach Punch not KO.

Staraptor just has way too much trouble getting in. If you let it come in for free everything time then of course it's going to cause problems, but really, it's not very hard to Staraptor-proof your team (Surf from a standard walling Milotic plus SR basically kills it completely to show how easy it is to stop it from coming in).

But why come in on Surf when there's a chance to come in on Recover? Why switch Staraptor into an attack at all? No one switches Staraptor in on attacks =/ Oh, by the way, without SR, a foe CB Staraptor's Brave Bird/Double Edge only has a 21% chance of OHKOing, not really relevant, but a fun fact nonetheless. Staraptor: The great Staraptor counter!

That's another difference it has with something like Garchomp - Garchomp was often praised with having defenses better than Swampert's. The only Pokemon not laughing at Staraptor is Deoxys-A.

Registeel isn't laughing at Staraptor (burn).

But seriously, getting in is hell for Rayquaza, SR weak, but once its in, it destroys nearly everything. That's kinda like Staraptor.

 

[Anti]

No, I agree revenge killing is a poor argument (since you have to sacrifice something lol) but it can be a good one depending on what you're dealing with. It depends though, if you're letting yourself lose 50% of your health while proceeding with no item and locking yourself into Outrage, then it's a pretty fair argument (lol Garchomp).

If Staraptor comes in on Milotic using Recover then it probably isn't going to kill it =p Actually, it can be Brave Bird recoil stalled that way (for a few turns, at least). Yeah nobody is going to intentionally bring it in on an attack, but that's actually quite difficult when even stuff like Registeel has them (and once Staraptor has made an appearance, that stuff is insanely predictable). there I go with my theorymon again, but you have to admin, getting Staraptor in without it taking a lot of damage is REALLY hard. Not impossible by any stretch of the imagination, but hard. Even it it does, having one (or possibly two) of your STAB moves recoil-inducing defines suicidal, lol.

My point is that Staraptor must go to too much effort to have the impact it often has (which is basically killing itself). That's the difference between it and Rayquaza and so many more.

EDIT: By the way, I think Staraptor has been discussed to its fullest (at this point both arguments have been presented and it's almost just posting to reiterate how we all disagree lol) and we could move on to one of the other ones. We don't have to or anything but I find Raikou and especially Gallade a mess to deal with. Luckily I usually crush it switching in, but it's a beast (@Gallade)

=(

EDIT: At least this thread is back on track.

 

[.]

No, I agree revenge killing is a poor argument (since you have to sacrifice something lol) but it can be a good one depending on what you're dealing with. It depends though, if you're letting yourself lose 50% of your health while proceeding with no item and locking yourself into Outrage, then it's a pretty fair argument (lol Garchomp).

Revenge killing basically negates a threat's place in the metagame, since an Uber Rayquaza can be revenge killed by a UU Cloyster.

If Staraptor comes in on Milotic using Recover then it probably isn't going to kill it =p Actually, it can be Brave Bird recoil stalled that way (for a few turns, at least). Yeah nobody is going to intentionally bring it in on an attack, but that's actually quite difficult when even stuff like Registeel has them (and once Staraptor has made an appearance, that stuff is insanely predictable). there I go with my theorymon again, but you have to admin, getting Staraptor in without it taking a lot of damage is REALLY hard. Not impossible by any stretch of the imagination, but hard. Even it it does, having one (or possibly two) of your STAB moves recoil-inducing defines suicidal, lol.

Staraptor is the emo bird! But honestly, the standard defensive Milotic takes 69% minimum from BB/DE, and 82% maximum. Meaning it will die in two turns regardless (unless it gets to MAXIMUM health the first Recover turn).

EDIT: By the way, I think Staraptor has been discussed to its fullest (at this point both arguments have been presented and it's almost just posting to reiterate how we all disagree lol) and we could move on to one of the other ones. We don't have to or anything but I find Raikou and especially Gallade a mess to deal with. Luckily I usually crush it switching in, but it's a beast (@Gallade)

Okay, let's discuss Raikou. I'll let Anti submit his opinion so I can disagree with it :D But really, I like beginning new Pokemon debates in a new post. Someone start.

 

[Pokedra]

Raikou will be moved up, its got great Speed, Special Attack and Special Defence. The CM sweeper is deadly, its move pool is shallow but despite that its way too strong for UU. However it does actually have a counter unlike Staraptor.