Vileplume was only used 36 more times than Magikarp in OUs in December

[sims796]

Seeing as how I got more views, and no replies, I'd like to try this again. Hopefully someone will help me out. I think I've found a suitable replacemnt for my sixth member.


I haven't played much, mostly because I have been getting bored with the game, but with Platinum comming in (presumably)m a few months, I've decided to try & fashion a Platinum team. I have lost some knowledge of the game & don't have the time to research the changes & effects of em' (yet I have time to make this thread), so I pray that you'll be able to help.

My skills dropped so much, even Dark Azelf is beating me. That n00b. I used to always beet him, like when my Lucario OHKO'ed his Weezing (at full health). I mean, what a phailure. Please don't ban me. Please don't change the thread title.

I work with funtionallity, & don't like to be tied down by tier (other than uber, of course), but I won't be diluted. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Wigglytuff doesn't work, and just cause I love it, doesn't mean I won't use it. However, if it is outclassed, no need to suggest it, unless it will immediately hamper my performance (i.e, Infernape outclasses Blaze, but I may want Blaze for other reasons). If you suggest any changes, don't suggest legendaries (this may be primarily for Wifi). Certain pokes I may not want (like Mence), but feel free to suggest. I'd like people who are skilled in the usage of many pokes to help, not just a primary OU player who will refuse options on the bat because it won't work on paper (like some people on Serebii--I was just trolling, honestly, not a real member).

Without further ado, here is my team of win.


Flygon@Choice Band
Nature:Adamant
Outrage
Fire Punch
Earthquake
U-Turn
EV:252 Atk, 252 Spe, 6 HP

I love Flygon. My favorite Dragon type. I love his resistances, and the fact that I can play a little more reckless makes him an asset. All those resistances just means I don't have to fret so much over an unproper switch. I hurd a lot about this set, & I was initially put off by Outraging Flygon, but if the reports are rite, then it seems sound enough.


Vileplume@Leftovers
Nature:Calm
Substitute/Aromatherapy
Leech Seed
Stun Spore
Sludge Bomb
EV:244 HP, 144 Sp.D, 70 Def, 52 Sp.Atk

Vileplume is on all my teams, no exceptions. I wonder how he will fare in Plat? Just as fine, probably better. Substitute is my move of choice, but I may switch into Aromatherapy if I find my prediction skills lacking.


Hippowdon@Leftovers
Nature:Impish
Stealth Rock
Slack Off
Earthquake
Yawn/Ice Fang
EV:252 HP,168 Def,88 SpD

Well, I've always wanted to use Hippoman, and now seemed like the perfect chance. I hurd how badly Salamence is, and both Sandstorm & Stealth Rock seems like a great solution. Roar is to help stop that freak from setting up. I was thinking of putting Hyper Beam, cause it worked in the Animoo. At least that's what my little cousin says, & he beet the Elite 4 THREE times!!!

EDIT: I had originally given him Yawn, and I love that move with a passion. Smacking down such powerful threats, but it hurts if they accept the sleep. May use Ice Fang.

HE IS THE LEAD!


Leafeon@Leftovers
Nature:Impish
Leaf Blade
Roar
Knock Off/Roar
Protect/Knock Off
EV:132 HP, 160 Atk, 216 Def

I've decided to use Vance's Leafeon set, since a few pokes lacks a reliable recovery move.
EDIT:Forgot to fix him up. Anti may be right. However, I was thinking of making him a Wishpasser, as I regretted NOT having Protect on him. & how the #$%@ does he lose to a Water type move!!!! Damn you, critical hit!


Lucario@Life Orb
Nature:Adamant
Close Combat
Stone Edge
Swords Dance
Extremespeed
EV: 252 Atk, 252 Spd

I've decided in making Luke into a pure SD-er.

EDIT:Leafeon may not be passing SD anymore, as it usually goes o Luke, as Anti said. If an opponent sees both Luke AND Leafeon using SD, they may get wise on the spot.


Starmie@Choice Scarf
Nature:Timid
Hydro Pump/Surf
Thunderbolt
IceBeam
Trick
EV:252 SP.A, 252 Spe, 6 HP
Grupmpig@Leftovers
Nature:Calm
Psychic
Seismec Toss
Light Screen
Reflect/Signal Beam/Substitute


Grumpig may suit this team more, giving me a direct counter to many Special attackers. I may make him a double screener with both Reflect & Light Screen.

Well, that's my team in a nutshell. I'm open to suggestions, but I will not replace Vilpelume or Flygon. The whole point is to try using this new Outrage Flygon. I also would like ot keep Leafeon, but I will lose him if need be. Hopefully, I will be able to keep Leafeon.

 

[Archer]

I'll do a proper rate later, but if you can predict decently, you should be able to switch in Flygon or Starmie when they trick, leaving you with a free attack or switchin. To be honest, I am rather worried about Leafeon. It's not bulky enough to make use of it's Defence andd could be wasting a spot. Gliscor effectively gives you a better SD Passer and a Physical wall of sorts. Your choice.

 

[dewey]

Leafeon@Leftovers
Nature:Impish
Leaf Blade
Swords Dance
Roar
EV:132 HP, 160 Atk, 216 Spe

Sd allows Luke to be SO diverse, hough Roar isn't doing much. Might get Protect or Knock Off instead.wheres ur 4th move? im assuming its baton pass

how do you deal with scizor btw? nothing can really switch into him safely. flygons ur only poke that can even kill him effectively. im just focusing hard on scizor because nearly every1 keeps it on their team now.

also whatre the evs for hippo

and what is your special wall? vileplume?

 

[Anti]

Use Leftovers on Vileplume since Trick is on more than Alakazam now, lol.

You need something that can stop Starmie on this team. I mean, Lucario is one of the best late-game sweepers in the game, but Leafeon is almost totally for Lucario. You're better off running a lure for SDluke's most common counters than giving it an extra moveslot. Crunch is kind of useless anyways (Cresselia is still Thunder Waving Lucario so who cares -_-)

I would go SD >>> Crunch on Lucario and put in something like Grumpig which at least has a shot at stopping Starmie and also stuff like Gengar (though that is far less threatening).

The other thing I don't like, naturally, is Choice Scarf Starmie...but that extends out of a personal belief that all Scarfers with a few rare exceptions are useless (because they are...) I mean you can keep it if you want (not like you'd let me stop you lol), but I would suggest Porygon2 if you can get it. It sort of a little bit kind of counters physical Salamence, but it does counter Heatran and Gyarados, two Pokemon that can be troublesome. But eh, your team might need a revenge killer, so keeping Scarf Starmie (as bad as it is) might actually be in the best interest of your team. I mean, you might as well try it out.

EDIT: The picture would be funny but the "LOL UR FALE" makes it so 4chanish I wanted to puke >_> Needs more "Just kidding" and less "YOU FAIL LOLZ"

Critic Anti is a critic!

 

[Dark Azelf]

Well from when i battled this team, you know what im gonna say... Empoleon. More specifially sub petaya sets, luckily mine has grass knot >> Ice Beam and so you can Roar it away with Leafeon (unless it crits lol). However if it uses Ice Beam then things will become stickier for you, leaving starmie as the only thing not to die.

82.76%-97.70% Active Torrent + Petaya berry surf on your starmie, and Hydro Pump is another story since it pretty much OHKO's it lol.

You can revenge with Starmie, but it it subs yeah its a problem. Just something to take note of.


And as said Scizor is a problem, since you cant hit it. I mean you could use Fire Fang or some garbage on Hippow >> Roar since Leafeon already has a PHazing move.

Ill come back later if i spot more.

EDIT : - Foe SD Lucario are idiots to you, i mean you could use a better revenge killer >> Starmie who as shown doesnt function well this metagame due to its Pursuit weak thus leaving you open to Mence etc.

Spoiler:

Maria Santos told me to post this, it wasnt my idea X]

EDIT 2 : - That is one sweeeeeeeet thread title =x lol

 

[Beginnings]

I'm sort of new to this, but here it goes:

~On Hippowdon, I'd consider Ice Fang over Roar, Leafeon already has Roar, seems like a waste imo.

~Black Sludge is fine, if someone tricks your Plume, they get poisoned

~Lucario: I would think about giving him Bullet Punch over Stone Edge, I used the dual priority set, and it works rather well.

~I'm not really digging Leafeon in OU, but that's really up to you, I would probably go with another Baton Passer, off the top of my head I can think of Gliscor, which is more or less leafeon minus the fire weakness.

~I would replace Starmie with a revenge killer, Starmie doesn't fair all that well these days, you could think about Gengar I suppose, or ScarfTran, which would help with your Scizor weakness.

Just my two cents.

 

[sims796]

Thank you all very, very much.

I have made a fewe changes & a few mistakes. First, I've tested this team, and I made undocumented changes. I'll add them in.

These changes I forgot to add may not be enough to fix the team, but it *may* change some advice. Of course, If those edits I forgot to do (as you see, I rushed them in, as Leafeon doesn't have four moves) doesn't *fix* the team, I will definatley change the team to match some advice I've gotten.

Edits away!

PS:I hate DA MOAR.

Remember, check out the first, original post I made, for cheap proposals I made. If they don't fix the problem, I will be open to more advice.

 

[Anti]

~Black Sludge is fine, if someone tricks your Plume, they get poisoned

~Lucario: I would think about giving him Bullet Punch over Stone Edge, I used the dual priority set, and it works rather well.

It's fine until they just use Trick again and poison your Gyarados -_-

I must also disagree about Bullet Punch. It you want "dual priority," Scizor is your guy (BP and Quick Attack). Lucario is walled by too many things (though then again, so is Scizor...which might be why you don't see those sets much =o)

Leafeon needs to be Jolly to outspeed Adamant/Modest Salamence, who otherwise is going to crush it before it can BP. Also good for +Spd base 90s and 85s.

And yeah, Grumpig would be nice, but I don't know if it beats Empoleon or not.

 

[sims796]

Leafeon is Jolly, I forgot tochange it :P

Yeah, I,ll try out Piggly Wiggly for a while.

Today was a good day.

EIDT: Wait, wait a minute--damn it, D_A!

 

[Archer]

It's fine until they just use Trick again and poison your Gyarados -_-

I must also disagree about Bullet Punch. It you want "dual priority," Scizor is your guy (BP and Quick Attack). Lucario is walled by too many things (though then again, so is Scizor...which might be why you don't see those sets much =o)

Leafeon needs to be Jolly to outspeed Adamant/Modest Salamence, who otherwise is going to crush it before it can BP. Also good for +Spd base 90s and 85s.

And yeah, Grumpig would be nice, but I don't know if it beats Empoleon or not.

This isn't just to you, Anti, but I thought I should mention it. Non-Poison types are not "poisoned" by Black Sludge, but receive 1/8th damage each turn. This is actually worse, as it cannot be cured by Cleric moves nor does it conflict with other status - you can still be poisoned/burned/paralysed.

Another thing that still doesn't seem right to me - Hippowdon with Yawn. It's not a reliable sleep move, as anything that you want to sleep gets an extra hit in. It's also not the most effective Phazing move, as many stat-uppers RestTalk, anyway.

And how is Grumpig supposed to counter Empoleon. Empoleon resists Toxic, Psychic, Signal Beam and everything else it usually runs aside from HP Fighting. I don't have access to a damage calulator at the moment, but you may want to check that Hydro Pump doesn't 2HKO.

I know you love it, but what is Leafeon actually doing? Can it handle any particular threats well?

 

[Rhys29]

Let's see what I can do (sorry for the wall of txt)...

Flygon should be running Jolly. Choice Band gives him plenty of power and hitting 299 is not a suggested speed tier for leads as you are not tieing nor really beating anything useful. With the increased speed to 328 you can tie Jirachi, Salamence, and Zapdos while outrunning Roserade and Yanmega leads while 299 doesn't. Not to mention you're getting plenty of power from the Choice Band anyways so speed investments should take priority. Your Ev's should stay the same unless you want a little bit of investment in Hp and just outrun both Roserade and Yanmega.

The only thing that your Vileplume is doing that isn't being outclassed by Celebi is Aromatherapy, and the fact that Celebi is a far more sturdy wall makes it a far better option since it can still act as a status absorber with Natural Cure. If you are willing to consider Celebi (though I know you have personal preference for Vileplume, not ignoring that), you will want to run a set that does basically the same thing and more:

Celebi@ Leftovers
Bold, Natural Cure
240 Hp, X Def/Sp.A, 216 Sp.D, Y Spe
- Thunder Wave
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock/Recover
- Psychic/Grass Knot

Sorry, I do my Ev's in kind of a different way, however I try giving you as much freedom and customization as possible. Your Def/Sp.A Ev's are dependant on your Spe Ev's as they take priority. Here are some options (Def/Sp.A = X // Spe = Y)
X: 52 // Y: 0 - Maximum defenses.
X: 20 // Y: 32 - Outruns Jolly Tyranitar.
X: 12 // Y: 40 - Outruns other defensive Celebi, Mismagius, and Substitute Suicune.
Those are your best options. However, if you do plan on using Vileplume, you are in desperate need of Aromatherapy as you have no other status absorber.

Hippowdon seems very out of place with your team. I'm sure Starmie won't like taking constant damage with no way of recovery while Leafeon and Vileplume will no longer have constant recovery each turn. Since you also have no reliable recovery move on your Sp.D wall, you will be hindering your team by putting him on here. My suggestion is a Rotom-H. I would suggest Rotom-C as an alternative, but you have Swampert handled.

Rotom-H@ Leftovers
Bold, Levitate
252 Hp, X Def, Y Spe, Z Sp.D
- Reflect/Rest
- Light Screen/Sleep Talk
- Discharge
- Overheat

This set will let you deal with 3 occuring problems: 1) You have nothing that can take atleast nuetral from BoltBeam coverage, 2) The screens and Discharge will help you deal with Agility Empoleon if you are still worried about that, and 3) Takes care of your Scizor problem as he resists all of Scizor's common moves. The Ev's are as such:
X: 176 // Y: 0 // Z: 80 - Provides maximum defenses. Best used with RstTlk set.
X: 100 // Y: 156 // Z: 0 - Outruns Jolly Tyranitar and allows you to get a Relfect up before it Crunches you.
Those are solid. However, I use a different set which is less defensive than most would like, but you're welcome to use it:
Timid: 252 Hp, 68 Def, 188 Spe
This prevents a +1 Gyarados from OHKOing with Waterfall so you can come in on the switch and OHKO with Discharge and outruns Adamant Lucario.

Having two Grass types on your team means you are open to a lot of the same weaknesses, Scizor to name the obvious. With Rotom you'll be in nice shape however. There is a set I would like to try out with him... you can use it if you wish, however it is still being tested.

Leafeon@ Salac Berry
Jolly, Leaf Guard
X Hp, Y Att, Z Def, 112 Spe
- Wish/Leaf Blade
- Endure
- Baton Pass
- Leaf Blade/Swords Dance

This is a nifty little set I had thought up for Leafeon in the past. The point is to use Wish as it switches in, then use Endure the following turn if you know the attack is going to OHKO you. This immediately activates the Salac Berry, allows you to survive an attack, and gives you 50% due to wish. You need Baton Pass as you can scout the opponent and pass the +1 stage of speed. Usually one would want Leaf Blade for an attempt at a late game sweep or alteast KOing one poke before passing or attempting a sweep if you've scouted enough.

However, you said you wanted to pass Swords Dance with him. This will be tricky, but you can pull it off. First of all, you would indeed be very Taunt weak. However, you will probably only get one clean shot at this, so they won't be able to stop you the second time (not to say you shouldn't attempt it if the opportunity arises). The plan is to SD on the switch, use Endure to activate the berry, then BP it to Lucario. If you know the move cannot OHKO you, then you can use SD as they switch, Wish as they hit you hard and fail to OHKO, Endure next to activate the Salac and boost your Hp back up to 50%, and then Baton Pass the next turn to avoid getting taken out. This means the technique can somewhat be repeated, as Leafeon can switch back in again. It's up to you.

The Ev's are as following with your game plan:
X: 208 // Y: 188 // Z: 0 - This is used with Leaf Blade in mind. Gives you plenty of bulk and makes sure you OHKO standard Swampert 100% of the time with Leaf Blade.
X: 252 // Y: 0 // Z: 144 - This is used with Swords Dance in mind. Gives you the maximum amount of bulk and provides excellent defenses so it will be easier to pull the Swords Dance > Wish > Endure > Baton Pass combination.
Speed should always be at 112 so it can outrun Timid Heatran before the boost and Scarf Heatran after the boost (since you could also technically pass to Flygon who could take Fire Blast and then go for a late game sweep with a move such as Outrage).

Remember, this set can work, but not necessarily thanks to SS being common. Otherwise simply go with Roar (as you need a phazer) on your original set and move your Att to 188 or ditch him completely and invest in a mixsweeper.

Lucario should have Swords Dance by itself just in case you lose the passer. Never be too reliant on one part of your team, especially if it is to set up for a sweeper as you can also lose the sweeper (which would make either pointless if you lost either one). Instead of cuttin Crunch, you need to drop Stone Edge (which is more for Scarf or CB Lucario sets). Crunch makes sure Dusknoir cannot properly wall you and cuts the defense of walls that could normally only be 3HKO'd by him. You could, however, run Ice Punch and Bullet Punch > Crunch and Extremespeed respectively. This would make sure that Gengar cannot completely hinder your sweep. Ice Punch also makes sure Salamence or Gliscor cannot switch into you easily and attempt to wall/KO you.

Why is Starmie running maximum speed on a Scarf set 0_____0. What are you trying to tie, other Scarf Starmies or Scarf Azelf's (non-existant)? You should cut your speed down to 216 and put 40 more Ev's into Hp. This makes it so you outrun Scarf Gengar and Scarf Infernape while still have a little bit of Hp to toss around.

Once again, sorry for the huge wall of txt! Hope I help.

 

[The Hero Without a Name]

Rhys, if CB Flygon goes Jolly, he lacks the power needed in order to 2HKO bulky waters, and especially Suicune (provided you have Stealth Rock down). He absolutely needs the power boost from Adamant nature in order to score these crucial 2HKO's.

 

[Rhys29]

Rhys, if CB Flygon goes Jolly, he lacks the power needed in order to 2HKO bulky waters, and especially Suicune (provided you have Stealth Rock down). He absolutely needs the power boost from Adamant nature in order to score these crucial 2HKO's.

Flygon can only 2KHO Suicune with Adamant Outrage 10% of the time. He has no way of getting SR down on this team thus far, so that part is pointless. That being said, he doesn't have any reason to keep Flygon in on Suicune unless it is INSURED that it will indeed be OHKO'd next turn. The only bulky water that would be 2HKO'd by the switch is Swampert and it is not a threat in the least to this team. Obviously outrunning/tieing common leads takes priority over 2HKOing Swampert (where a lead Swampert would OHKO you with Ice Beam) on a team that doesn't need it.

Besides, Flygon is not used as a power hitter. He is used as a scouter since he is the only Dragon type to carry U-Turn. Outrage is saved for a mop up move, not a straight up sweeping move. His use is similar to that of Choice Band Scizor's: use U-Turn for a solid hit and effective scouting and use the other moves only when it is the best option.

However props to you for looking for the possible 2HKO. On a non-lead Flygon I probably would agree with you. However, his job is mainly to U-Turn first move and either break something's Focus Sash or scout the opponent for Dragon counters for him to be more cautious around.

 

[sims796]

Rhys, thank you for your help, but your advice is prety much outdated. Flygon with Outrage is a ver yhard hitter, 2HKO'ing many threats with the help of Sandstorm and/orStealth Rock. Without Adamant, Flygon isn't useful with Outrage at all. Heck, look at Smogon, they said it better.

Hippowdon doesn't really hurt my team, at all. Just because Sandstorm hurts a few members doesn't mean much. Not every member has to directly bbenifit. In fact, Sanfdstorm is so common, it is on almost every team, whether or not I use it. As I said, Yawn is not meant to be used as a direct sleep move, it is used to promote switching amonst the enemy (& did just that in quite a few battles).

I don't entirely need a special wall, as this team plays more on resistances. The conventional layout may not always be the best.

Max Spe IV's was an oversight that I was too lazy to fix both here & on shoddy. I was hoping someone would notice & correct me.

Most importantly, not to be snippy, but you don't have to explain the basics to me. I understand that using a Passer leaves me Taunt weak, that much is obvious.



Last, as I stated in the first post, no legends, as I cannot obtain them on wifi. Also, Plume always stays. I like using his resistances, and since he is my favorite, I play to his strentghs.

However, I thank you for your help regardless, but next time, remember that I have the IQ of a brick. Long posts confuse me...

 

[Calum.]

replace leafeon with gliscor and if the whole idea is around flygon dont lead with him...

lead with starmie if you are using the trick variant as it can really stuff up some leads

 

[Anti]

This isn't just to you, Anti, but I thought I should mention it. Non-Poison types are not "poisoned" by Black Sludge, but receive 1/8th damage each turn. This is actually worse, as it cannot be cured by Cleric moves nor does it conflict with other status - you can still be poisoned/burned/paralysed.

Another thing that still doesn't seem right to me - Hippowdon with Yawn. It's not a reliable sleep move, as anything that you want to sleep gets an extra hit in. It's also not the most effective Phazing move, as many stat-uppers RestTalk, anyway.

And how is Grumpig supposed to counter Empoleon. Empoleon resists Toxic, Psychic, Signal Beam and everything else it usually runs aside from HP Fighting. I don't have access to a damage calulator at the moment, but you may want to check that Hydro Pump doesn't 2HKO.

I know you love it, but what is Leafeon actually doing? Can it handle any particular threats well?

Hydro Pump sucks (and nobody uses it for that reason). The reason I figured Grumpig has a shot is because not all Agility variants have Sub, which makes them vulnerable to status. The Sub ones can't actually hurt Grumpig without a Torrent boost (which it won't get unless it basically commits suicide, which is putting it in KO range for Starmie anyways).

Also, the only two Resttalk stat-uppers I know that are actually used are Suicune and Kingdra.

As far as the Flygon debate is concerned, Adamant is better 99% of the time. If you want a quick scout at the beginning of a match, that's one of the few uses of Choice Scarf so you could go that route. I agree though, Flygon isn't sweeping straight away, but then again, superdefensive Suicune isn't all that common anymore and many are more worried about beating Gyarados.

Otherwise I posted stuff before and not to take away from the originality of this team but Blissey would really help a lot here, lol. I'ts like Grumpig on speed, and your steam is still kind of efighedhoghk about fast special attackers like Starmie. Grumpig's lack of reliable recovery really sucks.

 

[Rhys29]

Rhys, thank you for your help, but your advice is prety much outdated. Flygon with Outrage is a ver yhard hitter, 2HKO'ing many threats with the help of Sandstorm and/orStealth Rock. Without Adamant, Flygon isn't useful with Outrage at all. Heck, look at Smogon, they said it better.

Hippowdon doesn't really hurt my team, at all. Just because Sandstorm hurts a few members doesn't mean much. Not every member has to directly bbenifit. In fact, Sanfdstorm is so common, it is on almost every team, whether or not I use it. As I said, Yawn is not meant to be used as a direct sleep move, it is used to promote switching amonst the enemy (& did just that in quite a few battles).

I don't entirely need a special wall, as this team plays more on resistances. The conventional layout may not always be the best.

Max Spe IV's was an oversight that I was too lazy to fix both here & on shoddy. I was hoping someone would notice & correct me.

Most importantly, not to be snippy, but you don't have to explain the basics to me. I understand that using a Passer leaves me Taunt weak, that much is obvious.

Last, as I stated in the first post, no legends, as I cannot obtain them on wifi. Also, Plume always stays. I like using his resistances, and since he is my favorite, I play to his strentghs.

However, I thank you for your help regardless, but next time, remember that I have the IQ of a brick. Long posts confuse me...

Sorry for the long post as I had stated before hand. And I also tried to edit the noted snippiness as it did come off kind of offensive, but my comp spazzed and then I had work 0.0 As for what you said:

Do note that the reason Flygon is not the best user of Outrage is simply because Salamence completely overshadows it. Even a CB Flygon falls notably short of an Adamant LO Mence. If you are using Flygon to simply use Outrage then you want to switch to Mence as it outclasses it in every way but STAB EQ and U-Turn. As I said earlier: the main reason to use Flygon over every other Dragon is because it is the only one to carry U-Turn.

Also, I know you may all hate me for this, but Smogon is not as great as they seem. I do have to note that they are doing better and their updates are slowly getting better, but they only carry the basics. Do not take their advice/Ev's before thoroughly investigating what said poke can do. Smogon has done very well for itself otherwise though, so I can't really say they are bad since they really aren't. I use some of their sets when I don't have the time to make my Ev's specific.

A special wall will help you deal with fast BoltBeam users such as Gengar or Starmie whom, if you remember, I noted would tear your team apart since you have nothing that resists them. The fact that Hippowdown provides support that can easily be replaced and improved on by Swampert makes it kind of dead weight. The fact that other people carry SS doesn't really give you a reason to put it on your team itself since you lack a Rock type or a Sand Veil user, so it isn't helping your party. Btw: Hippowdon is far more effective with Roar as it forces a switch where Yawn is only hoping the opponent switches out.

If you cannot use Rotom, can you atleast use Cresselia? This would give you a way to stop Salamence (and I made the new Salamence specific wall, so you'll be getting a great set). It would also give you away around Empoleon and Bolt Beamers, however it will not benefit your team against Scizor, so a Zapdos could definitely benefit your team if you see a place for it (it can even replace Hippowdon with a bulky set).

I was not treating you like someone who didn't see Taunt weakness, I was mearly bringing it up before someone called me stupid for not noticing it.

I am sorry I keep contradicting you, but please do not call my advice dated.

 

[Anti]

Do note that the reason Flygon is not the best user of Outrage is simply because Salamence completely overshadows it. Even a CB Flygon falls notably short of an Adamant LO Mence. If you are using Flygon to simply use Outrage then you want to switch to Mence as it outclasses it in every way but STAB EQ and U-Turn. As I said earlier: the main reason to use Flygon over every other Dragon is because it is the only one to carry U-Turn.

A special wall will help you deal with fast BoltBeam users such as Gengar or Starmie whom, if you remember, I noted would tear your team apart since you have nothing that resists them. The fact that Hippowdown provides support that can easily be replaced and improved on by Swampert makes it kind of dead weight. The fact that other people carry SS doesn't really give you a reason to put it on your team itself since you lack a Rock type or a Sand Veil user, so it isn't helping your party. Btw: Hippowdon is far more effective with Roar as it forces a switch where Yawn is only hoping the opponent switches out.

Don't forget that Salamence has a Stealth Rock weakness, though. that's very important since it's on 99% of teams (the 1% being MythTrainerInfinity), and Flygon is also immune to SS damage. Flygon doesn't hit as hard, and it's impossible to deny that. However, Flygon is a lot harder to bring down by throwing passive damage at it, something that is quite frankly the only thing that really holds Salamence back. Flygon also has a STAB EQ...a much better secondary STAB than Aerial Ace. They almost serve different purposes, as Flygon lasts longer and can scout, while Salamence hits way harder. Saying Flygon is outclassed is a little misleading though.

I agree with the second paragraph as I've mentioned before. A special wall is what will help this team a lot, more than anything else.

 

[Rhys29]

Don't forget that Salamence has a Stealth Rock weakness, though. that's very important since it's on 99% of teams (the 1% being MythTrainerInfinity), and Flygon is also immune to SS damage. Flygon doesn't hit as hard, and it's impossible to deny that. However, Flygon is a lot harder to bring down by throwing passive damage at it, something that is quite frankly the only thing that really holds Salamence back. Flygon also has a STAB EQ...a much better secondary STAB than Aerial Ace. They almost serve different purposes, as Flygon lasts longer and can scout, while Salamence hits way harder. Saying Flygon is outclassed is a little misleading though.

I agree with the second paragraph as I've mentioned before. A special wall is what will help this team a lot, more than anything else.

I had mentioned the STAB EQ as one reason. However it's SR weakness is outweighed by it's power and adversability. Hell, I use a Wish/Pass set and it still KO's about 2 pokes a game. Stealth Rock is not as common as you think, it is really only used about 60% of the time. A lot of teams have it but that doesn't mean it's something that will always be up turn one. It should only be applied when you are doing calculations on something you need to survive.

 

[Anti]

I had mentioned the STAB EQ as one reason. However it's SR weakness is outweighed by it's power and adversability. Hell, I use a Wish/Pass set and it still KO's about 2 pokes a game. Stealth Rock is not as common as you think, it is really only used about 60% of the time. A lot of teams have it but that doesn't mean it's something that will always be up turn one. It should only be applied when you are doing calculations on something you need to survive.

Salamence can't hurt anything if it's dead, just saying >_> SR is on every stall team for obvious reasons and almost every offensive team so that stuff like Flygon and Gyarados can get kills. 60% is waaaaaay too low. 99% might be too high, but it's at least 90%. It's everywhere.

But really, why can't you just get over sims' choice of dragon? You're either severely underestimating Flygon or hyping Salamence too much, because I have used both as CBers, and the extra power is really awesome, but Flygon is no slouch. It's not like Flygon is completely outclassed for the reasons I brought up in my previous post.

o_O