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what should really be banned

darkace

super dark elite kid
  • 96
    Posts
    16
    Years
    let's see what should be really banned. First zombie master, at least limited that thing cost me a lost in regionals. i had his jinzo due to my monster reborn creatured swapped. then summoned zombie master activated the effect drew a card, and kept on doing this he had two monarchs, a jinzo, and two zombie masters i had 5000LP he had 200LP
     

    Alter Ego

    that evil mod from hell
  • 5,751
    Posts
    18
    Years
    Uh-huh...so basically you just made this thread to whine about how unfair it is that you got your buttocks kicked in regionals? Compared to what Dark Armed Dragon Return and Diamond Dude Turbo do virtually every turn (typically involves summoning Dark Magician of Chaos and two to four other monsters in a single turn and wiping the S/Ts with Heavy Storm), that string of plays (as far as I could decipher from your very vague description) really isn't that much at all. A single D.D. Crow on your part would have shut that chain down right at the start (as would Book of Moon and x amount of other cards I can't be bothered to list). There's really no game balance issue with Zombie Master. Zombie rush (from which that kind of play is to be expected) is hardly a novel concept, so if you failed to account/prepare for it that's a mistake made by you, the player; not a reason to ban a card from use. Don't blame the designers for your mistakes. D=

    As for what I'd like to see banned and restricted? (as far as this is an actual topic and not just an excuse for you to whine) Allure of Darkness to limited. The damn thing is over-centralizing the metagame to the point of utter ridiculousness (how many of the Shonen Jump top 16s didn't run 3x Allure again? I seem to recall only a solitary Samurai deck), creating such ridiculous speed that virtually anything except a crazily fast-paced, brutal swarm tactic is doomed to failure. For someone who's always loved control decks (like me) that kind of gameplay environment just isn't any fun. .___.
     

    darkace

    super dark elite kid
  • 96
    Posts
    16
    Years
    allure is a pain in fact, it really pushes my buttons but destroyng it is easy as pie for i won 7 wins but loss one, 3 people i face had allure of darkness, and 3 ran yubel decks that were terrifying to get rid of
     

    Frostweaver

    Ancient + Prehistoric
  • 8,246
    Posts
    20
    Years
    How do you fear zombie master but destroy allure "as easy as pie" is totally beyond me.

    It's not that allure is fast, but just that everything else is too slow. YGO is so crazy on CA, counting cards and other things like this because draw power is zip to none. Allure isn't broken, but just that the equilvalent level of support cards aren't made at the same time to balance it out.
     

    Scarlet Weather

    The Game is Afoot!
  • 1,823
    Posts
    17
    Years
    Well here's an idea: Let Dark Armed keep their stinkin' allure of darkness. Escape from the Dark Dimension goes to Limited and possibly temp-ban Dimension Fusion. Without a reliable mass-rush way to special summon all those monsters Dark Armed keeps removing for allure, it's not going to be quite as easy. Escape From the Different Dimension can stay, but all the rest goes. *smiles*

    Er... Ace, you sure you aren't thinking "Veil of Darkness" (which is continuous spell) instead of normal spell Allure of Darkness?
     
  • 400
    Posts
    16
    Years
    I'm sorry, I really don't see how "Dark Armed Dragon" is a real threat. You need exactly 3 DARK monsters in your Graveyard to play it. Do you realize how difficult that can be? It's not like I can just Set 2 cards, activate "Card Destruction", and Special Summon "Dark Armed Dragon" on the first turn. And there are so many cards that kill it. "My Body as a Shield", "Divine Wrath", "D.D. Crow", "Disappear", "Necrovalley", "Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer", and even "Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror" all destroy "Dark Armed Dragon"'s entire strategy, not to mention the typical "Mirror Force", "Torrential Tribute", and "Raigeki Break".

    I'd like to see all "Monarch" monsters Limited, and not just "Raiza the Storm Monarch". This includes "Caius the Shadow Monarch" when it's released. I'd also like to see "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" Limited, because he's the one card that DDT Decks really need. Lastly, I think "Reasoning" should be Limited, due to a "Rainbow Dark Dragon" OTK I saw.
     

    Alter Ego

    that evil mod from hell
  • 5,751
    Posts
    18
    Years
    I'm sorry, I really don't see how "Dark Armed Dragon" is a real threat. You need exactly 3 DARK monsters in your Graveyard to play it. Do you realize how difficult that can be? It's not like I can just Set 2 cards, activate "Card Destruction", and Special Summon "Dark Armed Dragon" on the first turn. And there are so many cards that kill it. "My Body as a Shield", "Divine Wrath", "D.D. Crow", "Disappear", "Necrovalley", "Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer", and even "Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror" all destroy "Dark Armed Dragon"'s entire strategy, not to mention the typical "Mirror Force", "Torrential Tribute", and "Raigeki Break".

    Sorry, but I have to lol at this. First off, My Body As a Shield doesn't do crap against Dark Armed because the dragon will always nuke S/Ts first, leaving the monsters to Lightning Vortex and Darklord Zerato. Second, Necrovalley will suffer the same fate as Royal Oppression; being blasted off the field by Snipe Hunter, MST, Heavy Storm, or Dust Tornado. Besides, while the Dark Armed deck is inconvenienced by losing access to its graveyard, do keep in mind that they also have excellent RFG management, allowing them to plunk out whatever big beater they pitched for Allure anyway. Mirror Force will never counter the dragon because, again, Dark Armed always nukes the S/T zone or summons Jinzo before going for the kill. Disappear is just plain crappy and not even worth the mention when Crow already exists, and even Crow loses its glamor between Escape, Return, and Dimension Fusion. (Not to mention that Burial From a Different Dimension is a trendy tech card for Dark Armed Return) Finally, and most crucially, a common denominator for the counter-measures is that they lack searchability, meaning that the Dark Armed player will most likely find their rush combo before you find your counter. It doesn't matter how brilliant your tech is if you can't get your hands on it, ne?

    As for exactly three monsters...again, the deck has it covered. Prometheus can remove any number of darks from the graveyard while Burial From a Different Dimension can put them back in there. And of course, even playing to prevent the three cards can play into the dark armed player's hands. Why, you ask? Because it's a big old scarecrow if ever there was one. By the time your opponent has two darks in their graveyard and one monster on the field, players seem to be very reluctant to attack unless they have RFGs (fearing the magical three darks even though it's actually pretty unlikely that their opponent is even holding Dark Armed), thus letting the dark armed player avoid a lot of - potentially gamebreaking - damage and giving them extra time to draw out whatever they need to bump up their graveyard count to three or just plain swarm the field anyway.

    So yeah, as has already been pointed out by several far better analysts than me, the dragon isn't really what makes Dark Armed Dragon decks so powerful; it's the crazy draw and recursion sprees they set up. Sort of like how Gadget's big weapon actually isn't the gadgets themselves.

    As for limiting Diamond Dude...it wouldn't have as much impact as you seem to think, actually. All the Diamond Dude player would have to do is substitute with extra copies of Fear Monger (which, essentially, becomes your extra copy of Diamond Dude when it's destroyed). They still have two Reinforcement and one Stratos to search out Diamond Dude, not to mention three copies Emergency Call to search Stratos and three each of Monster Gate and Reasoning (That's 11 cards in the deck that can become Diamond Dude, plus the Diamond Dudes themselves). Trust me, I've tested out a watered-down Magical Explosion DDT and even that one had no trouble getting the dude out virtually every turn. Also, if the amount of monsters in the Diamond Dude deck is lessened, that just means that Reasoning and Monster Gate rip through it even faster, setting up the game-ending Magical Explosion faster too.

    Now if we really wanted to kick this metagame in the crotch we should ban Dark Magician of Chaos. XD

    Finally, I disapprove of your declaration of war against Rainbow Dark Dragon OTKO. That is one of the funniest, most innovative builds I've seen from this banlist's lot and certainly doesn't deserve that kind of spite. :< Besides, with all those unsummonable monsters the build is so unstable that thinking it a serious threat is pretty freakin' lol. Sure, it looks impressive when it goes off right, but the same can't be said for when you're holding an opening hand of Darklord Zerato, Demise, Dark Magician of Chaos Plasma, Rainbow Dark, and Berserk Dragon (and because we're talking a deck where a good 50% of the cards are precisely high level beatstick with no real method of summon, you will be seeing this kind of opening a lot). Because of the way it's set up, Rainbow Dark OTKO also has basically no defensive ability, so unless you get a good draw you've basically lost already. D=

    And...Monarchs are actually just as trampled as Rainbow Dark these days too. (Seriously, guys, when was the last time you saw no monarchs in any of the top 16s?) I'm not a big friend of monarch and wouldn't really care if they weren't around, but I don't think they have enough of an effect on the state of play to really warrant ban and/or limitation. The glory days of monarch have passed; no need to kick them on their way out.


    And like, ACC, you've forgotten that there's still unlimited Return From the Different Dimension. Again, Dark Armed can just substitute without taking a serious hit. Banning Dimension Fusion does kill the Cyber Valley exploit loop, though. Odds are that they'll just make Valley go the way of Card Trooper, though. It's like, whenever Machine Duplication sees use it creates something utterly crazy. xD
     
    Last edited:

    Frostweaver

    Ancient + Prehistoric
  • 8,246
    Posts
    20
    Years
    Getting 3 in the dark is not a problem. You can main deck 3 D. D. Crow and Dark Armed Dragon is not going to be fazed. Reason?

    They cycle through a quarter of their deck in 1-2 turns. Destiny Draw and Allure of Darkness get them the 6 card bonus draw, on top of a few suiciding monsters/armaggeddon knight that throws things down to the graveyard in blazing speed.

    When Cyber Dragon is ditched and its semi limit status is called "unnecessary" because it's "slow" you know something's horribly fast out there...

    My sole hope to destroy Dark Armed Dragon lies in Necrovalley, but ONLY because there's basically 9 copies of Necrovalley (3 valley, 3 commander, 3 terraforming) as a possibilty, and that Allure of Darkness also works for Gravekeepers making them only missing out on the Destiny Draw in terms of drawing. Jinzo and royal decree hopefully stops the 6 trap cards that are just constantly getting the DMOC back from the graveyard to recycle destiny draw and allure u_u (3 RftDD, 3 escape from the Dark Dimension) Problem is that it I just cannot do crap to the traps fast enough as raigeki break and dust tornado just mushes over Necrovalley for the one turn, and that's all it needs for a "gg." =( Even if decree or jinzo is out, still need to face Snipe Hunter =/

    Doesn't stop me from thinking full fledged necrovalley draw is not the right approach though.


    Jason's article here summarizes the amazing power of the deck very well, and you'll realize that it's a heck of a lot to counter all within the same deck. https://www.metagame.com/yugioh.aspx?tabid=33&ArticleId=9450
     

    Scarlet Weather

    The Game is Afoot!
  • 1,823
    Posts
    17
    Years
    Actually, Cyber Dragon at two isn't the most unnecessary change. Raiza being cut to one is actually pretty freakin' LOL in a metagame where spinning things to the top of the opponent's deck does you absolutely no freakin' good. >.<

    Myself? I see high hopes in Yubel Control. Compatible with Allure of Darkness, multiple ways to self-nuke Yubel, and the ability to completely LOL at all your destruction cards because you'll just be pulling out Terror Incarnate or Ultimate Nightmare one turn sooner. Plus, The Calculator is absolutely boss. 3900 Atk one one monster just for having a high-level monster on the field? Yes, Pleaseandthankyou.
     

    Frostweaver

    Ancient + Prehistoric
  • 8,246
    Posts
    20
    Years
    Except the calculator is dead draw until you got the Yubel family with metal reflect slime already out on the field...

    Cyber Dragon limit is very unnecessary because the days of tributing is over. When do we ever tribute now? Even monarchs are off tier 1 (when did that happen? only now. I blame allure). We are far more happy to Escape-revive our junk, or just dump-revive instead of tributing. 2100 isn't much compare to 2400/2800 (sadly true) although early on in-game, you can score quite a bit if you happen to get Cyber Dragon with kinetic soldier together against armaggedon knight, which is a very standard opening. Works on the Dark Grephers as well.

    Raiza is still powerful. It can target the RftDD and Escape to either force the player to save it by drawing it again next turn, which is still slowing the deck. Either that, or Raiza forces the activation of those cards in those less than ideal manner. Raiza, if still at 3, is still a very considerable choice against DaD Return, although Raiza will also shift to use allure/destiny draw as the backbone engine. The only difference I imagine, is that the 3 Raiza/monarchs will focus on dumping darks that special summon themselves on the field again instead of OTK with return.


    Don't forget that the current predicament is unique to north america. OCG does NOT have allure of darkness or darklord zeratos. That is probably why OCG remained to have a variety of many decktypes together with Dark Armed Dragon (though I heard that magical explosion is a nutcase near-FTK there), while if you don't run some deck that uses allure as the ultimate backbone ofyour deck, you got no chance to win anything beyond casual duels.
     

    Scarlet Weather

    The Game is Afoot!
  • 1,823
    Posts
    17
    Years
    But don't forget, The Calculator is completely compatible with Allure of Darkness so as long as you're running that he isn't a dead draw.

    Yeah, I agree. Allure of Darkness to forbidden, please. If Konami just decides to slap a limit on Dark Armed itself, well.... I won't be happy.

    Hmm... you know, if players can come up with two tributes for a Hino-Kagu-Tsuchi deck in the current metagame I wonder if they can come up with a double-tribute for LaDD. On the one hand, it'll shrink pretty fast against LaDD. On the other, LaDD loses its entire draw engine to the twin-colored dragon. Hmm... decisions, decisions...
     

    Frostweaver

    Ancient + Prehistoric
  • 8,246
    Posts
    20
    Years
    how's calculator compatible with allure... calculator mostly uses metal reflect slime because there's no other easily accessible lv 10 monsters that can special summon like that.

    Problem with LaDD is that Dark Armed, Zerato and DMOC only need to activate their effect once and they'll have enough fire power to normal attack over LaDD.

    Again, remember that allure of darkness and darklord zerato are all american exclusive. These are not problems faced or overcame by the Japanese u_u This is the only time where the american version of a deck is far stronger than the OCG counterpart: japanese DaD just DON'T have the 3 allure and zerato.
     
  • 7
    Posts
    16
    Years
    • Seen Apr 6, 2008
    Time for a 'n00b' of this forum to enter his input. (Not a n00b to the game, but to the forum though >_>)

    Calcuator isn't compatibile with Allure of Darkness at all. It's a LIGHT monster.

    it's not so much the Allure that's the problem I think, but the Dark Armed Dragon itself. Today I said something I never thought I would say.

    "If Dark Armed Dragon stays even restricted, bring us back Black Luster Soldier at least." DaD is just BLS in a new cunning design.

    Restricting DaD won't help either. Look at how Black Luster Soldier was for the time. I don't tend to have a problem with DaD to be honest (Me and one other person in our area are the only people who own one. And the one other person doesn't even play it.)

    This banned list was one my favourites. Except I can see a few problems.

    Ban

    Monster Reborn - Why was this unbanned in favour of Call of the Haunted I will never know.

    Dark Armed Dragon - This probably won't happen until two lists time. They'll experiment first and be like "Let's see how he is like restricted." He'll dominate still, then they'll ban him. Now I know it's the cards themselves that make the DaD more broken, and not DaD themselves, but you might aswell only ban one card instead of more cards. Same thing as DMoC.


    Restrict

    Allure of Darkness - I could probably see this semi-restricted, but this would cut down alot of decks.

    Call of the Haunted - There is NO reason for this to be banned in favour for Monster Reborn.



    Cards to Consider, but I don't find to threatening - Dark Grepher, Armageddon Knight, The Calculator, Caius the Dark Monarch.

    I just don't think Caius can cause as much more pain and suffering as Raiza. Espcially since People will probably pack Strike Ninja again with Caius around and Return from Different Dimension.
     

    Frostweaver

    Ancient + Prehistoric
  • 8,246
    Posts
    20
    Years
    I don't think the dragon itself is as much problem as allure, though dragon limited is still quite a good call. Allure is a great draw engine, but the fact that many other deck types don't have anything even close to equal (Destiny Draw is pretty close... oh wait all destiny heroes are dark) draw power makes it so they have to go.

    Monster Reborn was suppose to try to balance it by special summoning the dumped dark monsters, which I think is actually a validated return and really not that broken. Call of the Haunted can be used to block attacks and other unexpected results will occur during your opponent's turn. Monster Reborn like premature burial only happens on your turn. Monster Reborn forces you to do graveyard management and not to just dump things too lightly in a world of "dump dark or you lose." Monster Reborn was mainly bought back to fight against Disc Commander and DMOC I think... sadly not winning as much games as what DaD Return can do.

    Dark Grepher and Armaggedon knights are both just setup to the larger dark monsters... I think they are fine imho.

    gah need to go, post more later
     
  • 7
    Posts
    16
    Years
    • Seen Apr 6, 2008
    Call of the Haunted can block monsters, sure, however that's why there's replay. You don't have to attack that monster. Likewise Monster Reborn does the same thing, either a turn earlier or later.

    Call of the Haunted is weaker to Monster Reborn though because of several things:

    It's a trap. Traps are almost always weaker than Spells in this instant.
    It only targets your graveyard.

    DMoC wasn't that much of a threat until PTDN came out. I can understand Disc Commander though. I just tend to find it hard that a card which can take any card out of a graveyard without any type of drawback would replace a card that has a drawback and can end up being dead quite a few times more.

    Destiny Draw was pretty damned powerful mainly because Destiny Heroes work best in graveyards. Allure removes them on the otherhand. Sure they both draw cards, but the end result is actually different. Perfect Circle relied on the cards being in the graveyard and DaD wants them removed.

    And how did they solve the trouble of Perfect Circle? Restricting Commander and Semi'd Malicious. Though I admit that now you can have 3 Draws and 3 Allures (Why I don't know.)

    I agree whole heartedly about Allure. It's very powerful. But I disagree with both DaD, Call and Reborn.

    DaD is as broken as BLS, if not more so. Maybe more so, maybe less so. It's pretty onpar, and you know the game has suddenly became stale when Metagame shows that almost EVERY deck contains a DaD. It's like BLS, people constructed their decks to include at least one BLS at the time.

    I will admit though that DaD won't be banned next list. It will get restricted. However if the folks at Konami and UDE both wake up together, they'll realise that it should get banned.

    I will admit I don't mind Armageddon Knight and Dark Grepher.

    But I think the biggest problem is this will become the Necro/Raffinity of Yu-gi-oh.
     

    Lynxz

    Banned
  • 15
    Posts
    16
    Years
    • Seen Apr 10, 2008
    Banning a card game because of religion wow what has the world come to.
     

    Scarlet Weather

    The Game is Afoot!
  • 1,823
    Posts
    17
    Years
    Call of the Haunted can block monsters, sure, however that's why there's replay. You don't have to attack that monster. Likewise Monster Reborn does the same thing, either a turn earlier or later.

    Call of the Haunted is weaker to Monster Reborn though because of several things:

    It's a trap. Traps are almost always weaker than Spells in this instant.
    It only targets your graveyard.


    Well, don't forget that even with replay stopping your attack you can still stop the attack itself with CotH. But that's beside the point.

    Monster Reborn was brought back in order to play the role of a card that screwed with your opponent's graveyard in a way few others can. Like Frosty said, this thing basically forces graveyard management in a way that Premature Burial and Call of the Haunted can't. Without Reborn being in the metagame, the opponent dumping a huge dark or D-Hero Disk Commander for revival would be much more deadly than it is right now. As for CotH being banned, I wouldn't be surprised if that decision wasn't so much of a way of removing a stronger card from the metagame as it was to limit the amount of revival in one deck. Seriously, CotH+Premature Burial+Monster Reborn= a fairly large non-exclusive revival pool. This way you're limited to Premature and Monster Reborn, so you can't just CotH everything back.

    I know I've already said it, but I think Dimension Fusion needs to go: Either that or DMoC. With all the crazy OTK infinite damage loops that it can create with Shadowpriestess of Ohm+Spell Economics, It's just painful to watch. I'd suggestion a limitation on Spell Economics itself if it weren't for the fact that most OTK decks of that variety (or the ones I've seen, anyway) only ran one copy anyway.

    Cyber Valley to semi-limited if we decide to ban DMoC, because the Cyber Valley Infinite Draw loop is almost as bad.
     

    Frostweaver

    Ancient + Prehistoric
  • 8,246
    Posts
    20
    Years
    Well, unfortunately it seems that monster reborn's lack of restriction isn't forcing much graveyard management beyond setting up your own graveyard for OTK...

    I think that we just need Dimension Fusion to leave if there really is a mid format change.

    Dimension Fusion is the key to many OTK, so there goes all the FTK and other stuff. Without Dimension Fusion, at least DaD is slowed down so after it scores its stuff, they can't bring to the field 4 more monsters to lock down your field especially using Jinzo somewhere there with DMoC to get reborn or dimension fusion itself back.

    Mid format changes are never meant to be drastic. We can let the real changes come in in September as we brace ourselves for some equally fast and broken game ruling booster set known as Light of Destruction.

    (Calculator OTK incoming!!!!!! *hides behind the history textbook*)
     
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