Serious How much more can America stomach?

[EnglishALT]

And the other 70% of the suspected cases?

That would mean more than 70,000 detained children belong to innocent families, WHY do you tolerate such a atrocity? WHY do you feel it is EVER justified to detain children? Just ANSWER me, LDS!

WHY is money so important to you that you are willing to support a Nazi who approves hurting thousands of children??

Those were only of the families tested, no where does it say the children were detained from their families, or were not returned to Mexico to wait. Just that they were tested among those applying for asylum.

And as for your question, ALT, what we had before Trump manufactured his phony crisis was working just fine. You guys just don't understand, when Trump makes claims of invasion by Mexico of rapists and traffickers, WE DO NOT BELIEVE HIM. Just like we don't believe his phony-baloney claims of voter fraud and Birtherism.

What he is doing is inhuman.

I am trying to wrap my head around how Trump manufactured this crisis and how it is phony, could you care to elaborate? The number of people crossing illegally is up to levels not in more than a decade, detention centers are packed, and those working on the border are quoted at saying they are at a "breaking point" .

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47736603

So how is this phony or not a crisis?

Now answer my question please, WHY do you support this monstrosity who is jailing children?

I don't want to turn this into a Good/Bad Trump thread, I will say I support any policy that can safely and humanly hold those who are seeking asylum so that their claims can be properly vetted, and not released into the country so that they can disappear.

 

[Maedar]

I am trying to wrap my head around how Trump manufactured this crisis and how it is phony, could you care to elaborate? The number of people crossing illegally is up to levels not in more than a decade, detention centers are packed, and those working on the border are quoted at saying they are at a "breaking point" .

I will give you the exact moment he manufactured this crisis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=iZNBDBRHdwc

And his psychotic sycophants went wild.

I don't want to turn this into a Good/Bad Trump thread, I will say I support any policy that can safely and humanly hold those who are seeking asylum so that their claims can be properly vetted, and not released into the country so that they can disappear.

I do not want to hear it. IMOHO, Abusing children is an evil, cowardly act, is NEVER justifiable for ANY reason, and your attempts to justify it (while denying the centers are "concentration camps", which they ARE) make you an accomplice.

 

[LDSman]

And the other 70% of the suspected cases?

What about them? Do you support allowing possible child smugglers keeping the children not related to them?

That would mean more than 70,000 detained children belong to innocent families,

70,000? Where did you get that number?

WHY do you tolerate such a atrocity?

Making people follow the laws of this country is not an "atrocity".

WHY do you feel it is EVER justified to detain children? Just ANSWER me, LDS!

They came into the country illegally. They are possibly kidnap victims. Why is it okay to ignore some laws and not others?

WHY is money so important to you that you are willing to support a Nazi who approves hurting thousands of children??

What money? Where did money come into this arguement? What Nazi? Where is this "approval of hurting children" coming from?

And as for your question, ALT, what we had before Trump manufactured his phony crisis was working just fine.

There are a number of quotes from Dems about border security needing improvement that would disagree. Its not a "phony crisis" when there are tens of thousands of illegal crossings being detained every day. There are so many that the border facilities are being overwhelmed.

You guys just don't understand, when Trump makes claims of invasion by Mexico of rapists and traffickers, WE DO NOT BELIEVE HIM. Just like we don't believe his phony-baloney claims of voter fraud and Birtherism.

What he is doing is inhuman.

Now answer my question please, WHY do you support this monstrosity who is jailing children?

Blame the parents for crossing illegally.

 

[EnglishALT]

I will give you the exact moment he manufactured this crisis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=iZNBDBRHdwc

And his psychotic sycophants went wild.

Okay how does that change the facts on the ground that we are experiencing a massive swell of people crossing not seen in a decade, or that the border patrol is saying that they are at a breaking point?

Abusing children is an evil, cowardly act, and your attempts to justify it make you an accomplice.

I agree, it is evil, and we need to either change the laws so that family's can stay together in a facility indefinitely, or provide better facilities to handle the current flood crossing.

 

[moon]

And the other 70% of the suspected cases?

That would mean more than 70,000 detained children belong to innocent families, WHY do you tolerate such a atrocity? WHY do you feel it is EVER justified to detain children? Just ANSWER me, LDS!

WHY is money so important to you that you are willing to support a Nazi who approves hurting thousands of children??

And as for your question, ALT, what we had before Trump manufactured his phony crisis was working just fine. You guys just don't understand, when Trump makes claims of invasion by Mexico of rapists and traffickers, WE DO NOT BELIEVE HIM. Just like we don't believe his phony-baloney claims of voter fraud and Birtherism.

What he is doing is inhuman.

Now answer my question please, WHY do you support this monstrosity who is jailing children?

I will give you the exact moment he manufactured this crisis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=iZNBDBRHdwc

And his psychotic sycophants went wild.



I do not want to hear it. IMOHO, Abusing children is an evil, cowardly act, is NEVER justifiable for ANY reason, and your attempts to justify it (while denying the centers are "concentration camps", which they ARE) make you an accomplice.

Maedar, you need to rethink how you word yourself and what you are actually debating for here. Remember this forum's rules:

Remain civil at all times. Personal attacks during debates are not acceptable.

Discussions should be earnest in nature and not misrepresent views or be a platform for toxicity. In other words, we do not tolerate toxic behavior or debating in "bad faith".


This is a warning. Stay civil, don't make things personal, or you will not be allowed to post further in this thread.

 

[Maedar]

I'm trying to remain civil, nut it's hard to do so while replying to someone trying to condone the abuse of children.

IMOHO, some things are universally wrong, and folks who think they can convince me that those things are acceptable, well, it's hard to debate such people.

I'll ask this to anyone here: What if it was YOUR child? Just consider that.

 

[EnglishALT]

I'm trying to remain civil, nut it's hard to do so while replying to someone trying to condone the abuse of children.

IMOHO, some things are universally wrong, and folks who think they can convince me that those things are acceptable, well, it's hard to debate such people.

I'll ask this to anyone here: What if it was YOUR child? Just consider that.

I think we can all agree that there is things that need to be done, that there need to be more facilities to properly hold the kids traveling alone, that laws should be changed so that families can stay together, and that more judges appropriated so that migrant claims can move smoother. These facilities need to be clean, well kept, with staff properly trained to deal with the children and families.

I don't think anyone here is condoning child abuse, and I think everyone realizes that these facilities are overwhelmed and breaking, it's a crisis and the Government needs to react accordingly to stem the flood, provide better facilities, and expedite the process.

 

[moon]

How come the US can't let the refugees in and help them find work so they can live in the country and support themselves eventually? Are they too many, or unable to work, or are there other organizational hindrances to that?

(I'm aware this might be a really naive viewpoint, but I think that's sort of how it works in Sweden - I will try to look up more facts though. I'm sure life is still really not easy for people seeking asylum here either, but I think that at least children are welcomed to go to school, or get helped to learn Swedish so they can eventually go to normal school)

 

[Maedar]

I think we can all agree that there is things that need to be done, that there need to be more facilities to properly hold the kids traveling alone, that laws should be changed so that families can stay together, and that more judges appropriated so that migrant claims can move smoother.

Interesting you should say that. Trump's two shutdowns - which, as you recall, he started over his Wall - resulted in immigration court backlogs becoming even worse. Also, he has, several times, suggested doing away with due process for migrants altogether.

What's your opinion of THAT?

 

[EnglishALT]

How come the US can't let the refugees in and help them find work so they can live in the country and support themselves eventually?

(I'm aware this might be a really naive viewpoint, but I think that's sort of how it works in Sweden - I will try to look up more facts though. I'm sure life is still really not easy for people seeking asylum here either, but I think that at least children are welcomed to go to school, or get helped to learn Swedish so they can eventually go to normal school)

That is a good question, there are a number of reasons, for one there is a safety concern as you have to worry about terrorists and gang members crossing who's only purpose is to commit crime.

There is a money aspect, in that American schools are already hurting, and taking in millions upon millions of more children would force more kids in already packed class rooms, force teachers to deal with a myriad of different languages while teaching, and take away valuable time from the other kids.

There is the jobs aspect, in that any economy can only hold a certain number of people at one time, especially in low paying jobs. Any country that takes in millions upon millions of economic migrants will soon find the labor market for those jobs filled.

Which brings me to the final aspect, social services. To properly care for the people the Government would have to provide trillions in social services in terms of housing, food, medical care, and education, that will take money away from other services and eventually lead to resentfulness among the populous.

The US tries to be welcoming and it tries to take in a large amount of people each year, but allowing a flood through would overwhelm the system, pose security problems, and eventually probably lead to ethno nationalist groups that will seek to drive out the refugees.

Interesting you should say that. Trump's two shutdowns - which, as you recall, he started over his Wall - resulted in immigration court backlogs becoming even worse. Also, he has, several times, suggested doing away with due process for migrants altogether.

What's your opinion of THAT?

I do think we need a wall, in that it will funnel the people to ports of entry in which they can properly apply for asylum. To tie it back into the topic, one reason we are facing a crisis is because so many people are not applying at ports of entry but instead trying to sneak across, doing so forces the Government to place these people in facilities instead of having them wait in Mexico.

 

[LDSman]

How come the US can't let the refugees in and help them find work so they can live in the country and support themselves eventually? Are they too many, or unable to work, or are there other organizational hindrances to that?

(I'm aware this might be a really naive viewpoint, but I think that's sort of how it works in Sweden - I will try to look up more facts though. I'm sure life is still really not easy for people seeking asylum here either, but I think that at least children are welcomed to go to school, or get helped to learn Swedish so they can eventually go to normal school)

All of that is a reason that most countries simply don't allow unlimited immigration/open borders. A lot are unskilled laborers, some are not law-abiding. Drop 10 new people who need help and the system can usually be adjusted to cover them. Drop 10,000 and the system becomes overwhelmed.

Edit: Alt said it better.

 

[Nah]

I'm trying to remain civil, nut it's hard to do so while replying to someone trying to condone the abuse of children.

If it's getting that hard to maintain a reasonable level of cool, that's probably a sign that it's time to step out of the conversation for a bit. This is something for everyone to keep in mind btw.

I'm curious where I should read more about this, the detention camps in particular. What are some good sources for finding as impartial yet reasonable information as possible on this?

Not entirely sure what is the sort of stuff that you're looking for, but these things may or may not be of use to you or others reading this thread:

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2017-Sep/CBP TEDS Policy Oct2015.pdf

https://www.ice.gov/detention-management

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/f.../bp-total-monthly-apps-sector-area-fy2018.pdf
https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/f...p-total-monthly-uacs-sector-fy2010-fy2018.pdf
https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/f...tal-monthly-family-units-sector-fy13-fy18.pdf

It's a lot to read (the first one is 31 pages lol), and I've hardly looked at the first two links at all myself, but I figure that this stuff is likely a little better than random-ass news articles....hopefully, anyway.

 

[Maedar]

I do think we need a wall, in that it will funnel the people to ports of entry in which they can properly apply for asylum. To tie it back into the topic, one reason we are facing a crisis is because so many people are not applying at ports of entry but instead trying to sneak across, doing so forces the Government to place these people in facilities instead of having them wait in Mexico.

Watch this video. It explains fully why the wall is an unfeasible - and possibly impossible - goal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdUIXvwuwto&list=PLDpZdP4i5RSDpW87ZzZlquEpTF7Sz1FST&index=6&t=0s

 

[LDSman]

I do think we need a wall, in that it will funnel the people to ports of entry in which they can properly apply for asylum. To tie it back into the topic, one reason we are facing a crisis is because so many people are not applying at ports of entry but instead trying to sneak across, doing so forces the Government to place these people in facilities instead of having them wait in Mexico.

And even Mexico is having problems with the illegal immigrants.

A thought to consider. How many civilizations have fallen to "barbarians"? People flooding into the wealthier countries for a slice of the pie or a better life. The numbers get high enough that the civilization can't keep up and it is eventually destroyed.

 

[moon]

And even Mexico is having problems with the illegal immigrants.

A thought to consider. How many civilizations have fallen to "barbarians"? People flooding into the wealthier countries for a slice of the pie or a better life. The numbers get high enough that the civilization can't keep up and it is eventually destroyed.

Okay, that's enough. We're not going to derail this thread by making it sound as if Mexicans fleeing into the US are barbarians. Keep your arguments respectful, or don't debate at all.

 

[EnglishALT]

Watch this video. It explains fully why the wall is an unfeasible - and possibly impossible - goal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdUIXvwuwto&list=PLDpZdP4i5RSDpW87ZzZlquEpTF7Sz1FST&index=6&t=0s

For those wondering here is what the video says. However I really would like to go back to discussing the topic at hand, being the facilities.

9: The wall could become a tourist attraction, which has no relevance here.

8 The wall could go way over budget, fair point, but we are already going over budget just trying to build and maintain new holding facilities.

7: It would only stop half of the illegals. Fair point, and we could get into the numbers, however in terms of health and safety aspect at least those who cross through airports are properly vetted and screened for diseases.

6: The wall causes environmental change: Not really relevant to the discussion, and one could argue all the garbage dumped by people crossing in these habitats does far more damage.

5: The wall makes the smugglers rich: Not relevant to the discussion, but the smugglers are already getting rich, just getting a person to the US Mexico border costs around $4,000.

4: Illegal Aliens Build the Wall: Again not relevant

3: The wall helps the Mexican economy: Good for them?

2: Mexico doesn't pay for the wall: Again not relevant, but there are ways to make Mexico pay for the wall from placing taxes on remittance to using seized drug money.

1: The wall never gets finished: This is just arguing the wall won't get finished in four years and has no relevance to the discussion.

 

[LDSman]

Okay, that's enough. We're not going to derail this thread by making it sound as if Mexicans fleeing into the US are barbarians. Keep your arguments respectful, or don't debate at all.

Apologies. I wasn't trying to imply that Mexicans are barbarians. Hence the quotation marks. Outsiders would have worked better I guess. I was trying to point out that its possible to overwhelm a society with sheer numbers. The population growth outstrips the jobs, the housing, the food, etc.

 

[Maedar]

A thought to consider. How many civilizations have fallen to "barbarians"?

Define "barbarians"?

People flooding into the wealthier countries for a slice of the pie or a better life.

That's a pretty callous statement, LDS. Ask yourself this:

You live in a place with no electricity, and no running water. The water you have is the same water animals use as a toilet. Your children are uneducated, malnourished, and sick. You make around 10 cents an hour for a job you know you can do in America for $7.50 an hour.

Is a wall - or even a long stretch of desert - going to stop you?

And as for your claim that "they're criminals, they deserve it"? First of all, the crime they commit is trespassing. I was arrested for trespassing 10 years ago. I got a desk appearance ticket (didn't have to pay bail) showed up in court with about 50 other folks who had been given similar citations, signed a no contest form and did 50 hours of community service. It wasn't even added to my record. What is happening to them now seems disproportionate.

Plus, they are children, which means "below age of consent" and not liable for such things. Children below age of consent can't be held legally responsible for what their parents do.

And as for your claims of child trafficking? Again, we do not believe you.

 

[EnglishALT]

And as for your claims of child trafficking? Again, we do not believe you.

"Mexican authorities are warning refugee mothers about men seeking to buy migrant children to improve their chances of asylum at the United States border.

Officials have grown concerned after men from 'Central America or Haiti' were seen approaching mothers - especially those deemed vulnerable - at the Iglesia Evangelica Embajadores de Jesus shelter in Tijuana offering them $350 to purchase a child to cross into the U.S."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...pay-350-children-cross-U-S-border-family.html



Some migrants in Tijuana are trying to purchase children from vulnerable single mothers in local shelters so they can more easily cross into the United States, according to shelter directors, migrants and Tijuana law enforcement authorities.

Migrants in Tijuana shelters said they are alarmed after reports of single mothers being approached by groups of men who have offered to buy children to improve their chances of safely crossing into the United States.

A decades-old legal document, known as the Flores agreement, says migrant children should only be held briefly in U.S. border custody, which often means they are released, along with the parent or guardian with whom they crossed while they wait for their asylum cases to make their way through clogged immigration courts.

Typically, when migrants are apprehended at the border with their children they are held in custody for a few days before they are released. Single adults who cross the border can face months in detention.

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...ants-trying-to-buy-children-to-enter-the-u-s/



In villages such as Chanmagua, where years of depressed coffee prices have pushed families to the breaking point, young children and teenagers are seen as boarding passes to the flight for economic survival. Their absence is evident on soccer teams with too few players and coffee farms with thinner staffs at harvest time. Just this year, 100 adults and children have left, including 17 from the town's only kindergarten class, local officials said.

Within this exodus, a small number of cases have particularly troubled the town. Some parents have given up their children to other adults — sometimes for cash — to help the adult enter the United States, according to town officials, charity workers and residents. These transactions sometimes involve a minor traveling with a relative or godparent; in other cases, they say, the adult has no relation to the child.

Such arrangements are referred to, euphemistically, as "adoptions."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...2fdbf9d4fed_story.html?utm_term=.1187ec463b61

 

[Maedar]

Again, why punish the children for this? Don't your claims make them more the victims of a crime than criminals?

You can quote statistics all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you are trying to defend something that is cruel and inhumane.

Also, you claimed we need the wall, I explained why it's not a feasible goal, I think ALL my points are VERY relevant, since they prove it's an unobtainable fantasy.