Pokemon XY's Rating (Part 2)

[weedle_mchairybug]

What do kids dressing up as Misty have anything to do with anything? What does Misty have anything to do with XY? Why the hell are you basing the Pokemon anime over one particular character that's been gone for over 12 years, which is now roughly 70% of the anime's run?

You implied that the current audience wouldn't even be aware of Misty anyways with XY, I just cited an example of kids who DID care (and news flash, why would they dress up as her if they didn't even like her, especially that little girl who most likely was five at the oldest)? And as I pointed out, she has to do with XY's ratings' plummeting the same way the Writer's Strike of 2007 had to do with Heroes' eventual cancellation (in other words, it played a role, albeit indirect). And that kid in the image I linked you to? That picture was taken this year.

And I have actually cited a few examples besides Misty regarding how the anime is declining (like the horrid treatment of the Gym Leaders in Hoenn, Ash not winning a league at all, and rarely even improving since Johto, Battle Frontier being made pointless via level resets, and BW in general). Maybe you've forgotten, but several people left the series because of their decision to remove her, not to mention there are people who weren't even alive at the time Misty was on the show who are cosplaying as her, showing just how much of a bad decision removing her truly was.

 

[precita]

And I have actually cited a few examples besides Misty regarding how the anime is declining (like the horrid treatment of the Gym Leaders in Hoenn, Ash not winning a league at all, and rarely even improving since Johto, Battle Frontier being made pointless via level resets, and BW in general). Maybe you've forgotten, but several people left the series because of their decision to remove her, not to mention there are people who weren't even alive at the time Misty was on the show who are cosplaying as her, showing just how much of a bad decision removing her truly was.

Where are you even pulling this nonsense from? What does any of this have to do with XY's ratings? Everything you said here is completely wrong and has nothing to do with the current ratings of the show.

Misty has NOTHING to do with the ratings of the current anime. You keep bringing up 25+ year old adults, they are not the target audience. Misty's been gone for over 12 years, she has no impact on the show over a decade after she's been gone. How hard is this to comprehend?

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Where are you even pulling this nonsense from? What does any of this have to do with XY's ratings? Everything you said here is completely wrong and has nothing to do with the current ratings of the show.

Misty has NOTHING to do with the ratings of the current anime. You keep bringing up 25+ year old adults, they are not the target audience. Misty's been gone for over 12 years, she has no impact on the show over a decade after she's been gone. How hard is this to comprehend?

That girl in the Tumblr post I supplied you with, however, IS part of the target audience (being quite obviously a 5 year old at the oldest), and was actually taken this year, meaning this current series, so the point still stands (and common sense, why would she even dress up as Misty if she never even heard of nor cared for her anyways as you frequently implied?). And actually, Misty has a bit to do with the ratings of the current anime, maybe not directly, but certainly indirectly (just like how the Writer's Strike of 2007 played an indirect role in Season 4 being the final season of Heroes before it was prematurely cancelled).

And BTW, the treatment of Gym Leaders in AG WAS horrid (or do I really need to remind you that, Roxanne and Brawley aside, all of the gym leaders lost to Rookie Pokémon far too easily), not to mention Ash losing against people he definitely shouldn't have to lose to (BW was the worst of it, but even DP had him losing to several people he shouldn't really have to lose to, like Roarke via Pikachu, or especially how Ash and Pikachu lost to Paul in spite of the fact that unlike Paul, they actually BEAT Brandon), not to mention the mess that was BW (and that bit was direct).

 

[precita]

Little kids knowing who Misty is does not mean they're the target audience. They obviously had older siblings/parents who show them the older episodes. Its amazing how you can't comprehend this. The original series does not even air on TV anymore in the U.S, and in Japan it doesn't rerun on TVTokyo but another smaller station. 12 years worth of children have been growing up with the anime without Misty, (if they started with AG, DP, BW or XY as their first series), and even if they go back to rewatch earlier episodes it makes no difference.

Likewise the current XY ratings have nothing to do with Misty, because 7-8 year old kids watching Pokemon today aren't going to give a crap whether Misty is there or not.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Little kids knowing who Misty is does not mean they're the target audience. They obviously had older siblings/parents who show them the older episodes. Its amazing how you can't comprehend this. The original series does not even air on TV anymore in the U.S, and in Japan it doesn't rerun on TVTokyo but another smaller station. 12 years worth of children have been growing up with the anime without Misty, (if they started with AG, DP, BW or XY as their first series), and even if they go back to rewatch earlier episodes it makes no difference.

Likewise the current XY ratings have nothing to do with Misty, because 7-8 year old kids watching Pokemon today aren't going to give a crap whether Misty is there or not.

Except the target audience IS little kids, and that girl I showed you WAS of that age bracket. The only one who seems to not have any comprehension on the matter is you, really. I actually TRIED to explain exactly how it relates, and I even admitted that it won't have a direct relation, but that doesn't mean it can't be an indirect relation (which let's face it, it does have at least an indirect relation, just like the 2007 Writer's Strike was indirectly responsible for the cancellation of Heroes on NBC.). And for the record, you DO realize that they actually have DVD sets as well as ways to watch the old episodes online, right? Kids, especially the millenials, pretty much use the internet for these things. They can easily get it from there. And I might as well point out that around 2008, I knew a kid who at my request was doing petitions to bring Misty back onto Pokémon, and from the way he was talking, he was probably able to get signatures from kids at the nearby Elementary School, and if they could try to get Misty back despite it being around the time DP aired, that makes it pretty clear that kids were indeed familiar with Misty even when they probably haven't even grown up with Misty at all.

And again, if today's kids truly didn't give a crap for Misty as you put it, that girl would NOT be cosplaying as Misty at all, she'd be more likely to be cosplaying as either Serena or Bonnie, since either of those two are actually more recent for her current generation.

Besides, I cited quite a few instances besides Misty of how the ratings were declining, and we can at least agree that BW was directly responsible for the ratings decrease. Heck, some of my points were even brought up by the likes of Famon and DBZ Fan.

 

[Garchomp]

^ that's literally one picture of one girl completely out of context. For all we know, her mom is the one who dressed her up like that, not the girl herself making the decision herself. That picture literally proves and says nothing.

 

[Famon]

I think it would be pretty interesting to see how the ratings would be like if Misty stayed.

Nothing would change !
If Writers kept repeating the same story and pulled all the crap form BW Series then Pokemon's rating would decline with or without Misty.
Thing is , This constant changing of Sidekicks made them and their development insignificant! What's the Point ? They will get kick out in next series with their unfinished story.
If The New traveling companions fails to create a good Group-chemistry with Ash then they are pointless no matter how big ''Goal'' & ''Screen-time'' they get.
Just like Serena & Clemont happen to be failures due to their Boring ass chemistry with Ash! They are more like Ash's lackey then Friend.
Misty & Brock may not have a clear goal But they form a great group chemistry with Ash! That's the main reason behind Original series success.
Thats what Serena & Clemont are missing !
Not to mention , Writers unwillingness to let Ash move forward.
Just imagine DBZ where Goku doesn't age at all ! In Every series , He goes to collect Dragonball all over again and loses ''World Martial Art'' Tournament.
That how the story goes on forever ! Goku doesn't age , he doesn't become a Super Saiyan , He doesn't win World Marital art Tournament , he doesn't become stronger then he was at previous series!
Would anyone love DBZ like that ???
Would you like if Goku never became a Super Saiyan and beat Strongest fighter Freza's ass in Namek because he will be ''Too OP'' ?

Because thats What happening in Pokemon and Fans are just too tried ! While Newer Fans has no interest cause they know Ash always lost at the end ! They aren't interested in an Anime series where they already knows the ending.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

^ that's literally one picture of one girl completely out of context. For all we know, her mom is the one who dressed her up like that, not the girl herself making the decision herself. That picture literally proves and says nothing.

The person who took the picture would have probably asked the parents beforehand and probably would have noted it in her Tumblr blog if that was the case, though I'll ask if it really wants to give closure to you. And no, "literally proves and says nothing" would be a TV set with a blank screen or a blank sheet of paper. This is neither. And for the record, had the mom forced her to wear the Misty outfit, it would have been obvious by the girl looking uncomfortable wearing it. I may be aspergers, but I at least have some grasp on facial expressions and emotions thanks to an emotion chart at the doctor's office, and she doesn't look uncomfortable with it at all. This is a good example of a girl being uncomfortable wearing something due to their parents forcing them to wear it (and a bit of warning, it is distasteful): http://www.breitbart.com/video/2012/03/23/lifetimetv-sexualizes-topless-8-year-old-girls/

Nothing would change !
If Writers kept repeating the same story and pulled all the crap form BW Series then Pokemon's rating would decline with or without Misty.
Thing is , This constant changing of Sidekicks made them and their development insignificant! What's the Point ? They will get kick out in next series with their unfinished story.
If The New traveling companions fails to create a good Group-chemistry with Ash then they are pointless no matter how big ''Goal'' & ''Screen-time'' they get.
Just like Serena & Clemont happen to be failures due to their Boring ass chemistry with Ash! They are more like Ash's lackey then Friend.
Misty & Brock may not have a clear goal But they form a great group chemistry with Ash! That's the main reason behind Original series success.
Thats what Serena & Clemont are missing !
Not to mention , Writers unwillingness to let Ash move forward.
Just imagine DBZ where Goku doesn't age at all ! In Every series , He goes to collect Dragonball all over again and loses ''World Martial Art'' Tournament.
That how the story goes on forever ! Goku doesn't age , he doesn't become a Super Saiyan , He doesn't win World Marital art Tournament , he doesn't become stronger then he was at previous series!
Would anyone love DBZ like that ???
Would you like if Goku never became a Super Saiyan and beat Strongest fighter Freza's ass in Namek because he will be ''Too OP'' ?

Because thats What happening in Pokemon and Fans are just too tried ! While Newer Fans has no interest cause they know Ash always lost at the end ! They aren't interested in an Anime series where they already knows the ending.

Yeah, agreed on all fronts, especially when their development is stunted as a result and we really have no reason to care for the characters when they are just disposable in the end. Though at least with the other leads, they actually managed to continue pursuing their goals (or in the case of Brock, actually allowed to change his goal of his own free will). Misty wasn't even allowed to do that. Instead, she was forced by her sisters to become a Gym Leader again, so she got even LESS (only one who may have faired worse was Max, and that's only because the writers for whatever reason decided to write the show like the Simpsons and have Ash not age at all, despite the fact that the Simpsons' plot isn't even like Pokémon's plot for the simple fact that unlike the Simpsons, the nature of Pokémon's plot doesn't allow for a floating timeline).

And Misty at least had a goal that actually WAS more defined than Ash's goal (sure, it's a type-master, but at least we actually have a sense of how she can accomplish her goal beyond simply fighting gym leaders. Until DP, we didn't get ANY sense of how exactly Ash might achieve Pokémon Master, especially when the closest he got to actually WINNING a league, the Orange Islands league, basically had him NOT becoming a Pokémon Master at all). And thanks to the writers wasting time in DP, they ended up having Ash lose to a legendary-wielding trainer and then shipping him off to Unova despite DP strongly implying that Ash was actually going to face off against the Elite 4 this time around, meaning he'd actually win a league for once.

 

[precita]

Why are you going into rants about Misty in an XY ratings thread? Misty has NOTHING to do with this series or its ratings. You've been told this in the previous ratings thread before it was locked. You're bringing up a character who has been gone for over 12 years and four generations as well as 600+ episodes?

Nobody cares what Misty did or didn't do, it has no affect on the show nearly 15 years later. Its mind boggling this needs to be explained since for everyone else this is common sense.

 

[The 4th Kira]

Here's and the update on Pokémon XY's rating and the news isn't good, the anime is still out of the top ten in terms of ratings.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-06-11/japan-animation-tv-ranking-june-1-7/.89157

It's been flopping for like two years now tbh. It seems like the ratings will keep declining, which I hope causes some serious changes in the next saga 'cause I'm tired of the same basic formula every 3/4 years.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Why are you going into rants about Misty in an XY ratings thread? Misty has NOTHING to do with this series or its ratings. You've been told this in the previous ratings thread before it was locked. You're bringing up a character who has been gone for over 12 years and four generations as well as 600+ episodes?

Nobody cares what Misty did or didn't do, it has no affect on the show nearly 15 years later. Its mind boggling this needs to be explained since for everyone else this is common sense.

Her departure has an indirect impact on XY's ratings. What part of that do you not understand? You want something that truly has no impact whatsoever on XY's ratings, try the Bible, or the Harry Potter books, even. And for the record, it's pretty clear that thanks to her departure, they are doing a lot of girl swapping and to some extent character swapping which if anything is actually harming the ratings as well.

And BTW, I actually cited a few instances BESIDES Misty that would be a factor to the ratings collapsing, repeatedly, on this thread, and even on the previous thread (or do I have to remind you that I also cited how the Gym Leaders were treated horribly in AG, or how Ash's Battle Frontier Win was treated as a joke in DP, and Best Wishes overall). If anyone is making Misty the sole focus of this thread, it's you, since you keep bringing her up and claiming I'm focusing too much on her. If you hate Misty and are obsessed with thinking that removing her was the best the show's ever done, be my guest and live in that dream land, but the evidence does bear out that Misty's removal does impact negatively the ratings of the show overall, and yes, that includes XY's ratings. Sure, it's not a direct factor in XY's plummeting ratings, but it's still a factor nonetheless. After 15 years of swapping out girls to such an extent that it's practically become predictable (which, BTW, started with their premature removal of Misty, something even Shudo admitted was a mistake on his blogs), fans are not going to bother caring about new characters if they're just going to be replaced anyways, and need I remind you of how this whole trend started (that's right, with Misty). That's actually common sense. And there's also, as Famon pointed out, how Ash isn't allowed to win one league since they started doing series starting with AG.

 

[kuzronk]

The ratings are declining (not "free falling") because Pokemon in general is losing its popularity - obviously a show that's almost two decades old isn't going to be getting the same ratings it did when it was both new and a massive fad.

The games are still popular but Youkai Watch is much popular these days.

 

[precita]

And BTW, I actually cited a few instances BESIDES Misty that would be a factor to the ratings collapsing, repeatedly, on this thread, and even on the previous thread (or do I have to remind you that I also cited how the Gym Leaders were treated horribly in AG, or how Ash's Battle Frontier Win was treated as a joke in DP, and Best Wishes overall). If anyone is making Misty the sole focus of this thread, it's you, since you keep bringing her up and claiming I'm focusing too much on her. If you hate Misty and are obsessed with thinking that removing her was the best the show's ever done, be my guest and live in that dream land, but the evidence does bear out that Misty's removal does impact negatively the ratings of the show overall, and yes, that includes XY's ratings. Sure, it's not a direct factor in XY's plummeting ratings, but it's still a factor nonetheless. After 15 years of swapping out girls to such an extent that it's practically become predictable (which, BTW, started with their premature removal of Misty, something even Shudo admitted was a mistake on his blogs), fans are not going to bother caring about new characters if they're just going to be replaced anyways, and need I remind you of how this whole trend started (that's right, with Misty). That's actually common sense. And there's also, as Famon pointed out, how Ash isn't allowed to win one league since they started doing series starting with AG.

All of this is absolutely wrong. Most kids watching Pokemon today have not even seen anything prior to Best Wishes. Kids aren't obsessed with plots or storylines, they're watching to see their favorite pokemon animated. And in the case they do come across older episodes, a 7 year old kid does not give a damn what happened in an episode over 10 goddamn years ago.

Also everything you've said about AG and DP are wrong, and since you said you never watched the sagas, stop posting false nonsense. You've been called out about this several times by other users in past threads. And you're still claiming Misty has anything to do with the current anime, which is also utterly ridiculous. 12 years have passed between the end of the original series and the XY anime, nothing that happened over a decade ago matters now.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

All of this is absolutely wrong. Most kids watching Pokemon today have not even seen anything prior to Best Wishes. Kids aren't obsessed with plots or storylines, they're watching to see their favorite pokemon animated. And in the case they do come across older episodes, a 7 year old kid does not give a damn what happened in an episode over 10 goddamn years ago.

If they truly didn't give a darn about it, they'd be acting like that guy in Opus who didn't even know what a newspaper was (in other words, they wouldn't even be aware of the older episodes despite their being free access via DVD sets, reruns, online viewings and the like). So no, they DID actually give a darn.

And actually, kids of that age bracket actually ARE obsessed with plots and storylines. Aside from what Famon stated on this thread regarding how several other Animes are doing far better in ratings than Pokémon is right now, many of which were even started either around the same time as or shortly before the Pokémon Anime (animes that, you know, actually have a PLOT), when I was a kid of that target audience, I actually came UP with a fanfic that mixed Pokémon with Beast Wars and Star Fox. At that time, Star Fox only had two games, the SNES game and Star Fox 64, and the only Pokémon games at that time were Red and Blue (heck, I actually thought Pokémon WAS real back then as well), and many of them even talked about Pokémon as well. If I could do it back then, there are plenty of kids who could do the same today as well, even those in Japan. The fact that the ratings are actually dropping like a rock for Pokémon right now shows that, yes, the target audience is aware of it having a shoddy plotline, and most certainly they don't like it.

Also everything you've said about AG and DP are wrong, and since you said you never watched the sagas, stop posting false nonsense. You've been called out about this several times by other users in past threads. And you're still claiming Misty has anything to do with the current anime, which is also utterly ridiculous. 12 years have passed between the end of the original series and the XY anime, nothing that happened over a decade ago matters now.

I've read up on summaries and episode discussions on AG and DP, and a lot of the things I complained about were in fact stated by those people who watched it. I at least tried to actually GET any intel on the shows that I can find in order to form some basis, and summaries and articles are as good as one can get at the moment for those who don't watch the episode (and besides, if those really don't do a thing, why even bother making summaries and episode articles and discussions in the first place?). I also watched some bits of AG and DP, so it's not like I didn't even see it at all. And let me tell you, Roxanne (who lost to Pikachu alone and indisputably so) and Brawley (the only gym leader to actually indisputably beat Ash on the first try [Norman doesn't count, since he only beat Ash so the writers can have an excuse to force Ash to go the route of the games]) are the only Gym Leaders who actually came across as impressive. The others, they basically stank, and if they lose easily (ie, lose without needing a rematch on Ash's part) and many times on very cheap manners, yes, they very much stink (and even with Watson, the only other Gym Leader to actually fight Pikachu alone, was a disputed win since Pikachu got overcharged by a robotic Raikou, requiring a trip to the ER after the match, and some viewers even indicated that Watson's use of a robot Raikou WAS cheating). Heck, even Lizardo agreed on the premise of how AG's gym leaders were handled horribly, and he's actually SEEN AG in full. And as far as DP, Ash already won against the Battle Frontier, heck, Paul couldn't even lay a finger on Brandon, yet he ended up losing against Paul, not even losing against Paul, but losing against one of his weaker Pokémon (relatively speaking) with Pikachu. The loss would have been forgivable if he at least lost against Torterra, but Pikachu didn't even get that honor. And BTW, even Famon is pointing out how the replacing of several characters is if anything harming the show more than actually helping it, which DOES mean that kids are not really liking or caring about characters being replaced.

Also, have you forgotten we live in the age of smartphones and the internet? Kids would be watching those things online and find it. Not to mention since there are DVD box sets being sold of various seasons/series, they'd also buy those if it piqued their interest. Meaning, yes, they actually would watch older seasons (and it's not hard to find old boxed sets. All you need to do is go to a store's local video/DVD section, look at boxed sets, and you'll find them. You can even type up "Pokémon" on that store's website and set the search term to DVDs).

Apparently you need to read up the difference about direct and indirect causes, since I specifically mentioned that Misty's departure was an indirect cause. Like, I don't know, how the 2007 Writer's Strike in America was indirectly responsible for the cancellation of NBC's Heroes, since the bad writing for Season 3, and to some extent the bad writing of Season 4, was the result of their prematurely shortening Season 2 and altering the story specifically because of the Writer's Strike.

 

[Famon]

Yeah, agreed on all fronts, especially when their development is stunted as a result and we really have no reason to care for the characters when they are just disposable in the end. Though at least with the other leads, they actually managed to continue pursuing their goals (or in the case of Brock, actually allowed to change his goal of his own free will). Misty wasn't even allowed to do that. Instead, she was forced by her sisters to become a Gym Leader again, so she got even LESS (only one who may have faired worse was Max, and that's only because the writers for whatever reason decided to write the show like the Simpsons and have Ash not age at all, despite the fact that the Simpsons' plot isn't even like Pokémon's plot for the simple fact that unlike the Simpsons, the nature of Pokémon's plot doesn't allow for a floating timeline).

And Misty at least had a goal that actually WAS more defined than Ash's goal (sure, it's a type-master, but at least we actually have a sense of how she can accomplish her goal beyond simply fighting gym leaders. Until DP, we didn't get ANY sense of how exactly Ash might achieve Pokémon Master, especially when the closest he got to actually WINNING a league, the Orange Islands league, basically had him NOT becoming a Pokémon Master at all). And thanks to the writers wasting time in DP, they ended up having Ash lose to a legendary-wielding trainer and then shipping him off to Unova despite DP strongly implying that Ash was actually going to face off against the Elite 4 this time around, meaning he'd actually win a league for once.

Define Goal ????

Misty's Goal was never Define !
Her goal & dream were always different in Kento ! She ether wants to be a TV-star , Model or catch the rarest Water type.
She didn't settle into One goal until Jotho.
Sure she talk about her love for Water Pokemon but that didn't confirm her goal.
Clemont also said how much he loves Electric type Pokemon and want to learn everything about them and become the best Electric Pokemon trainer.
Which was the main reason behind him becoming a Gym-Leader .
However , That doesn't mean Clemont want to be a ''Thunder Pokemon Master'' ! He wants to be an inventor that make Pokemon happy.
Also , The entire idea about Misty must win all Water related Tournament to be a ''Water Pokemon-master'' is made up by You , The Anime doesn't support it ! Just like winning all Battle Tournament or Battle Facility doesn't make Ash a Pokemon Master , He must win an Actual League and Compete at Champion League to be a Pokemon master ! Same way , Winning all Contest won't make May & Dawn a Top Coordinator unless they win the Grand-festival .

Everything has a system ! However , The system of becoming a Water Pokemon-master haven't reveal yet . So you can't claim Misty's goal to be define.
You are just so obsessed with Misty returning that You simply made yourself believe if Misty wins all Water related Tournament she will be a Water Pokemon Master .
Also , The line '' I will be closer to my goal by winning this'' are used all the time even during Minor Tournament ! Just because someone said Misty might be closer to her goal by winning ''Whirl Cup'' doesn't mean its true.
Ash will often say winning ''Twinleaf Tournament'' will get him closer to becoming a Pokemon Mater but he will not anywhere near closer to be a Pokemon Master if he doesn't win an Actual League.

Also , Orange League not even a real League , Its not even a Competition!!! Just because it has a name ''League'' tagging behind itself doesn't make it a real League. The Orange League didn't do any good at all for Ash because he only came back home to find himself inferior to Gary.

So think twice before claiming Misty's goal to be more define then Ash!

 

[Hikamaru]

So apparently what Famon is saying is that the fact the series is reusing the same plot with Ash over and over again is what's causing the audience to lose interest and start watching different series which causes those shows to rise and Pokemon to fall from grace.

I think Ash will have to be removed and the anime will have to undergo a complete reboot with brand-new protagonists at this rate. Or they have to change his plot to something completely new and different.

 

[Famon]

So apparently what Famon is saying is that the fact the series is reusing the same plot with Ash over and over again is what's causing the audience to lose interest and start watching different series which causes those shows to rise and Pokemon to fall from grace.

I think Ash will have to be removed and the anime will have to undergo a complete reboot with brand-new protagonists at this rate. Or they have to change his plot to something completely new and different.

Well , Am I wrong ???

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Define Goal ????

Misty's Goal was never Define !
Her goal & dream were always different in Kento ! She ether wants to be a TV-star , Model or catch the rarest Water type.
She didn't settle into One goal until Jotho.
Sure she talk about her love for Water Pokemon but that didn't confirm her goal.
Clemont also said how much he loves Electric type Pokemon and want to learn everything about them and become the best Electric Pokemon trainer.
Which was the main reason behind him becoming a Gym-Leader .
However , That doesn't mean Clemont want to be a ''Thunder Pokemon Master'' ! He wants to be an inventor that make Pokemon happy.
Also , The entire idea about Misty must win all Water related Tournament to be a ''Water Pokemon-master'' is made up by You , The Anime doesn't support it ! Just like winning all Battle Tournament or Battle Facility doesn't make Ash a Pokemon Master , He must win an Actual League and Compete at Champion League to be a Pokemon master ! Same way , Winning all Contest won't make May & Dawn a Top Coordinator unless they win the Grand-festival .

Everything has a system ! However , The system of becoming a Water Pokemon-master haven't reveal yet . So you can't claim Misty's goal to be define.
You are just so obsessed with Misty returning that You simply made yourself believe if Misty wins all Water related Tournament she will be a Water Pokemon Master .
Also , The line '' I will be closer to my goal by winning this'' are used all the time even during Minor Tournament ! Just because someone said Misty might be closer to her goal by winning ''Whirl Cup'' doesn't mean its true.
Ash will often say winning ''Twinleaf Tournament'' will get him closer to becoming a Pokemon Mater but he will not anywhere near closer to be a Pokemon Master if he doesn't win an Actual League.

Also , Orange League not even a real League , Its not even a Competition!!! Just because it has a name ''League'' tagging behind itself doesn't make it a real League. The Orange League didn't do any good at all for Ash because he only came back home to find himself inferior to Gary.

So think twice before claiming Misty's goal to be more define then Ash!

Actually, as DBZ Fan pointed out a lot of times before in prior topics, the system WAS revealed. We know that it has to deal with trying to have mastery over water types by capturing them, studying them, trying to do battle with them, finding legendary Pokémon with them, and partaking in events like the Whirl Cup (and the last bit was pretty much emphasized). Compare that to Ash, and how literally the only thing known with absolute certainty at that time is that Ash has to beat Gym Leaders (and the Orange Islands did count as a league. Certainly, it qualified more as an actual league than the Battle Frontier at least), with not even beating a league being a guarantee of becoming a Pokémon Master at all (remember, we don't even know if fighting the Elite 4 would get him to the spot until DP, two series after the original series, which is really sad that they took that long to even hint at that, much less state it), and it actually WAS more defined than Ash's goal at the time. Not to mention, we at least have a bit more specifics to type-master than Pokémon Master (since it deals with a specific type).

And it's not just the fact that Misty stated it will get her closer to that goal if she wins the tournament. The people in charge of that Whirl Cup tournament even stated it will get her closer to that goal, and any other people with that goal as well. Heck, Elm when Misty mentioned that goal of hers even suggested that she participate in the Whirl Cup. If that's not enough to indicate it's very similar to the Pokémon Leagues, I don't know what is. And it wasn't "made up by me." It was stated in several episodes. "Made up by me" would be me claiming Misty was a guy, which, you know is spreading complete falsehoods, or claiming Misty caught a Shellder despite the show never even alluding to it. DBZ Fan, a guy far knowledgeable than I can ever be on the subject, even repeatedly explained exactly how the goal is repeatedly stated, in English and Japanese versions, even as early as Kanto. And quite frankly, if they actually state exactly how a character is going to proceed to one goal (even citing a specific kind of tournament by many characters in the same show as being integral to that goal) while the other main character's goal is limited to simply "beating gym leaders" as a step to Pokémon Master, not even alluding to any other procedures to achieving that goal, yes, the aforementioned goal actually IS more defined than the other goal, by definition. Heck, even May and Dawn's goals actually ARE more defined than Ash's goal at the moment. So if anyone needs to think twice about anything, it's you claiming Misty didn't have a defined goal at all before Johto. Sure, Johto is the first region to explicitly state the term "Water Pokémon Master," but it's pretty clear she already had that as her primary goal since Kanto.

Oh, and for the record, if we go by your logic, Ash had different goals in Kanto and even other regions as well, or have you completely forgotten that he often indulged in several things that weren't even tangentially related to his goal at all (I think he also wanted to become a great movie star in the same episode Misty wanted to become that as well). And BTW, Misty's desire to become a Water Pokémon Trainer was stated as early as "Bulbasaur and the Hidden Village," where she specifically stated that she wanted to capture Oddish for her credentials of a water trainer, and if that's not enough, Tentacool and Tentacruel had Misty specifically referring to herself as a Water Pokémon Trainer at one point (when realizing she didn't understand Horsea's warning earlier. And based on Dogasu's comparison of the episode, calling Horsea male aside, that was accurate to the Japanese version as well.).

And take this into consideration as well: Suppose Ash did win a game-centric Pokémon League, suppose Ash beats the Elite 4, heck, suppose Ash even beats the regional champion in the Champion Master cup, and he still gets beaten by Gary. Then what? Will you still think he never achieved Pokémon Master, then, or that it doesn't count, then? Despite meeting all the requirements?

And for the record, his loss to Gary after Orange Islands was at least slightly better than his loss to Gary after the Battle Frontier, considering Gary was at least still actually training for a league. In Battle Frontier, Gary was retired and decided to go with the family business of Pokémon researcher, meaning he shouldn't even be training at all.

Anyways, we can at least agree that removing the other characters was a detriment to the show overall, and that Ash not winning any leagues or, DP aside, not even getting better than before in them, is also a huge detriment to the show as well, especially to XY's ratings.

 

[DBZ fan]

I see people claiming ratings for pokemon anime are "doing fine" with low success being just nusproduct of less people watching TV.
But if that was completely true, than other anime would follow same suit having repeadetly significant drop in ratings like pokemon does. Yet, they dont with likes of One Piece, Detective Connan, Fairy Tail, Doraemon, Inazuma Eleven Go, new fewer calles Youkai Watch etc.

So its clearly obvious how its not just in "less kids being born or watching TV" being problem of pokemon popularity dropping.

But bad, insensitive and repetitive strategy producers apply over and over again.
Strategy of Ash journey never going on bigger, more substantial level of character development.
Continuity in pokemon being very bad acting like past development, build up and achievements never happened.
Lack of on going story which grows over long period of time gradually developing characters and adventure aspect as whole giving recognizable touch to narrative.

Or repetitive, overused ideas and rehashed occurences from past instead of offering more orginal subplots, depth to character dynamic which used to be on higher level in older sagas with protagonists bursting with bigger pool of emotions and substance to their behavior.

Accompanied with unpredictable twist shaking up development and traveling as whole which could be achieved by diving more in main hero history, breaking new steps with its quest expanding on horizons of what else beside winning league is required to become master. Doing fresh, exciting sequels with past friends, rivals giving insight in pokemon history and what happened before etc.

I definitely think paying more attention to past and returning older fan favorites(such as Misty, May, Brock etc) in new updated forms, having them play new roles in pokemon plot and giving continuation of their adventures would inject much needed energy, enthusiasm and appreciation for pokemon series attracting more of older fans.
Increasing ratings and helping improve bad reputation pokemon anime has right now restoring fans faith in writers and anime they mostly feel indifferent about. Despising direction it follows losing main objective of what this anime used to be about.

Anime characterized by continuity based journey using past as template on which future is created, significant unbreakable friendships which are mantained not losing iis meaning(kinda hard to get that feeling when Ash and older buddies dont see each other for 10 years), hard works, renunciation and effort not happening in vain. With stories of Ash past traveling companions being mantained, updated and going somewhere instead of lying down in mud forgotten like it never mattered etc.

Being underestimated how much one simple thing such as stronger continuty, maintaining connections with past emphasizing on importance of events and characters which happened before and consistent story which dont experience soft resets can mean. In increasing popularity of some anime and fans loyalty toward it.

Why are you going into rants about Misty in an XY ratings thread? Misty has NOTHING to do with this series or its ratings. You've been told this in the previous ratings thread before it was locked. You're bringing up a character who has been gone for over 12 years and four generations as well as 600+ episodes?

Nobody cares what Misty did or didn't do, it has no affect on the show nearly 15 years later. Its mind boggling this needs to be explained since for everyone else this is common sense.

It may not mater nowadays, but 13 years ago it was one of major factors which caused significant portion of pokmemon fans to abandon pokemon anime after Johto never coming back again. Ratings did started to drop in middle Johto, but Misty removal only contributed in popularity dropping even further.

You should be aware most than anyone else in here how much strife, dust and complaining Misty removal from pokemon anime caused dividing western pokemon fandom.

Having on one side people who either never liked Misty or used to like her. But didn't thought twice of turning back on Misty character and giving up from her just because of being mishandled in some ways during Johto saga with second chance and redemption being out of question for them. Despite writers managing to return her appeal and luster fully in Mastere Quest and onwards in chronicles.

Praising it as "best move writers did".

As on other side there were people who viewed writers move as insulting, disrespecting and careless. In deciding to drop heavily popular and recognizable first girl of pokemon ; 5 years of build up, introduction to her dreams, goals, fears, background, dillemas and relationships with other characters so easily.

Abandoning her comletely from pokemon series not wanting to put effort and time in making something out of all that potential she had.
Invoking frustration and disapoointment among many of direction in which pokemon show was taken ever since. With no stable cast, weak continuity barely; if ever maintaining connections to what happened before and consistent storyline which evolves with relatable, endearing smaller, but well fleshed out group of protagonists as they explore world, grow, change and overcome steps in reaching their dreams and destination they choosed to follow.

Being to them writers message of whatever direction anime followed being tarnished.

Misty's Goal was never Define !
Her goal & dream were always different in Kento ! She ether wants to be a TV-star , Model or catch the rarest Water type.
She didn't settle into One goal until Jotho.
Sure she talk about her love for Water Pokemon but that didn't confirm her goal.
Clemont also said how much he loves Electric type Pokemon and want to learn everything about them and become the best Electric Pokemon trainer.
Which was the main reason behind him becoming a Gym-Leader .
However , That doesn't mean Clemont want to be a ''Thunder Pokemon Master'' ! He wants to be an inventor that make Pokemon happy.
Also , The entire idea about Misty must win all Water related Tournament to be a ''Water Pokemon-master'' is made up by You , The Anime doesn't support it ! Just like winning all Battle Tournament or Battle Facility doesn't make Ash a Pokemon Master , He must win an Actual League and Compete at Champion League to be a Pokemon master ! Same way , Winning all Contest won't make May & Dawn a Top Coordinator unless they win the Grand-festival .

Everything has a system ! However , The system of becoming a Water Pokemon-master haven't reveal yet . So you can't claim Misty's goal to be define.
You are just so obsessed with Misty returning that You simply made yourself believe if Misty wins all Water related Tournament she will be a Water Pokemon Master .
Also , The line '' I will be closer to my goal by winning this'' are used all the time even during Minor Tournament ! Just because someone said Misty might be closer to her goal by winning ''Whirl Cup'' doesn't mean its true.
Ash will often say winning ''Twinleaf Tournament'' will get him closer to becoming a Pokemon Mater but he will not anywhere near closer to be a Pokemon Master if he doesn't win an Actual League.

Also , Orange League not even a real League , Its not even a Competition!!! Just because it has a name ''League'' tagging behind itself doesn't make it a real League. The Orange League didn't do any good at all for Ash because he only came back home to find himself inferior to Gary.

So think twice before claiming Misty's goal to be more define then Ash!

Just because Misty was versatile having multiple interests beside one does not mean her goal of becoming water pokemon master wasn't main dream she pursued.

All those things you mentioned about Misty side wishes don't change anything considering how in Orange Islands, Johto Misty expressed interest in various other things as well.
Such as wanting to become professor Foster assistant in researching about fossil water pokemon, dreaming of meeting legendary water pokemon realizing their true nature and origins.
Seeing Misty show interest in magic wanting to be magician such as in "Hocus Pokemon!" when meeting Tammy.
Etc, etc.

But this side interests were just that, side hobbies Misty expressed interest in forming her character. Just like its case with fishing, romance and love, cute pokemon wanting to catch quite a few ones despite not being water pokemon like Jigglypuff, Odish, Teddiursa etc.

Misty main love, passion and something she deeply cares about the most were always water pokemon and huge fiery desire of wanting to become strongest water expert in world/water pokemon master. That was her main career, main path she decided to follow and absolutely adores wanting to make important and sifnigicant feats with it.

Misty through whole original series(Kanto, Orange Islands, Johto)talked about desire to become strongest water trainer in world, show whole world how elegant and powerful water pokemon can be.
Her interest in renowned water specialists like E4 Lorelei considering her idol wanting to become one day popular and strong like her, all those moments of learning how to approach water pokemon better understanding their feelings; such as Marill from "Crying Out Loud!", Poliwhirl helping it about confidence issues, knowing how to read Staryu emotions and feelings inside core reflecting close bond existing between them.
Or desire to meet and learn about all kind of water pokemon, learn from other water experts etc were all situations where Misty passion and desire to become water pokemon master were further reinforced.
Being stated how water pokemon master means becoming strongest water trainer in world.

Nevertheless winning water tournaments is required to acquire this title as Whirl Cup showed.
Being revealed through talks of sea priestess Maya and professor Elm, whole lore about sea heroes, water spirits and mystical water pendant.
How winner of this prestigue tournament gets title "Alpha Omega of water pokemon". Being one of names by which sea heroes(in Japanese water pokemon masters) were called by that name in past.
Serving as direct indisputable proof how by acquiring Whirl cup title you overcame one of steps on road of becoming water pokemon master bringing you closer toward that dream.

Your right, we don't know what other procedures and test someone need to pass afterwards, but winning Whirl Cup is without doubt one of steps required to be fulfilled in order to become water master.

Likewise every E4 member is named as type master in games being strongest trainers in world specializing in secific type.
Something Misty wants to become with water pokemon.
This was more throughly explained in thread i made regarding Misty water pokemon master goal, strong connection to E4 members(jpn. "Four Heaven Kings!") and what was showed in canon regarding it, steps and instances where writers dived deeper in whole thing.

Being more clearer in reality what title of water pokemon master carries with itself compared to pokemon master goal Ash is chasing. Not being known anything except how winning regional league will allow him to enter champion leaguer making step further in coming closer toward fulfillment of his goal.

 

[precita]

Heck, even Lizardo agreed on the premise of how AG's gym leaders were handled horribly, and he's actually SEEN AG in full.

LOL, what? Why are you speaking for Lizardo when the guy likes AG and its Gyms? Hoenn's Gyms were handled leagues better than Kanto/Johto's, with the exception of Wattson and Tate/Liza. Granted DP and XY have the best Gyms in the anime so far, but AG's Gyms were handled far better than Kanto (where half of them were pity badges), or Johto's where two of them were pity badges (Whitney and Pryce), and some of the others were just average. Juan, Winona, Flannery, Norman, and Brawly were all done fantastically for the animation at the time. Roxanne was OK. Likewise Ash struggled up until their last pokemon to pull a win, and Ash's Hoenn Pokemon were fantastic battlers.

Ash's Battle Frontier win was never treated like a joke, where are you pulling this garbage from? Paul was an experienced trainer, Pikachu always loses to new unevolved Pokemon in the following region. Pikachu loses to weak/unevolved Pokemon at the beginning of EVERY saga, the writers do it purposely so Pikachu doesn't dominate all its battles.