I'm going to step in and ask for a while, who would you define as a veteran.
Anyone who felt enough at home in the FFL (before it went silent for these past few months) to consider themselves to be part of the FFL family. As in, in on the in-jokes, a regular there, that sort of thing.
is for our so called veterans to get some work done to encourage newbies.
Um, yeah. That's what I've been saying from the beginning, basically: that we need to get people to review. Hence why I keep asking why the regulars/vets/what-have-you
aren't reviewing and what would make them review. (That was the whole reason behind the emblems idea, if you recall.)
In other words, basically, the reason why the project keeps flailing is this. Someone points out there's a problem and asks how it might be fixed. Said someone might even throw in suggestions. Everyone else misses the point of the suggestions/questions and aims straight for throwing in suggestions on the projects while going further and further away from the reason why we're trying to change things in the first place.
...And then someone else comes along and points out the problems again as if we didn't already know what the problems were, and we start back at square one.
I don't mean to be biting or anything, but it's been a few months since these threads and this discussion's started. Where have we gone, exactly? Nowhere because we keep forgetting the main point of the project.
For instance, has anyone actually studied SPPf to find out why it's so successful –so to speak, because I haven't been to Serebii-- in comparison to F&W?
*raises hand... and then raises Breezy's hand for her 'cause she's from SPPf*
Basically, from what I can tell, the forums over at SPPf are divided into two categories:
1. Story forums (including a separate one for non-Pokemon fic).
2. Discussion forum.
The discussion forum has
no FFL. Instead, all discussion ends up on separate threads, so you're forced to be on-topic anyway or risk getting your thread closed. (There's even a special thread for the discussion of story ideas, but it's
only for that.)
So, because there's no clique thread in the writer's lounge, people who end up in there are actually there for the writing. They're there to trade tips, read, review, and post. They're not there to hang out and tell each other about their day.
In other words, the difference between SPPf and this place is that SPPf has a
writing community. PC's writing forum just sort of misses the point and ends up being a general community, even though we've got
another place for that.
That and, again, people feel compelled to review more, in part because SPPf touts itself as being a community with high standards in terms of writing (which is true) and in part because, again, the people who are there are there for the writing.
As for the mouse and cookie stuff, yeah, we know this already, so I'll just fast forward.
The same with reviews. We keep telling each other to do reviews, but we don't actually do that many/enough to begin with.
You do have a good point here, although the main problem (and one of the major reasons why PMR got started) is that any effort a single person does in changing this doesn't really help unless we
all do it. In other words, aside from RL work, the reason why I just didn't blitz-review this place is the fact that I have no idea if it'd do any good if
no one else blitz-reviews the place with me.
In other words, the main question PMR is trying to ask is why isn't our activity directed towards the parts of the forum that actually matters, and how do we get it to go there? As in, how do we get people to get off their rears and actually connect with each other instead of just sitting around like we had at the beginning of the year?
On another note, I think it's ironic that the very definition of the infinitive of 'lounge' in 'Fanfiction Lounge' is to pass time idly or to act in a relaxed manner… That however, is besides the point.
Indeed it is.
tl;dr, yes, Mizan, you kinda pointed out... the exact point the project was trying to say for months. That being said, because we keep on saying the same things over and over again (i.e., you're not alone in the "we're missing the point and/or restating the project's goal/Jax's original rant" boat), I've decided to end this series of wallbangers and come out with some clear things about the project:
1. Yes, our main concern is about communication. The main goal of PMR is figuring out how to get the older members of the board to connect with the newer members.
2. Yes, I do believe we can make things work by example, but we need to get the older members to
do something. That's where the main weakness of this community lies, and that's what these projects have been trying to target.
3. No, we're not doing the rules-story thing. We've decided it wouldn't work.
4. If nothing's done in a month, mod powers or no, I'm going to start going around to regulars' profiles and beating them with sticks to get them to review.
Furthermore, I've never really posted my thoughts on what would work and what wouldn't. I've mostly been pointing out faults, asking questions, and compiling ideas that you've been coming up with. Because, seriously, we need to get something done, I figure I'm just going to say it right now.
FFL
Here's a thought. Why not
close the FFL? Seriously. As I've said before, there's been forums out there that have gotten along just fine without them. SPPf, for example, just has discussions about writing in separate threads. Even if we get minor questions here and there, we at least make full use of the fact that the Writer's Lounge is -- gasp -- a
forum and something that can't actually be hurt by repetitiveness now and then. (God knows the actual FFL suffered from that now and then. Oh, bold topics. You and your tendency to ask the same questions over and over again on occasion.) If their question's been answered, we can just politely point them to the search function.
Point is, how do we get rid of a clique atmosphere
and all this dead-end arguing about whether or not we should have bold topics in the FFL? By not having the FFL. Sure, if we feel the need to have a casual place for writing-related discussion or a simple questions kind of place, we can make a thread for that later, but why don't we just create threads we've already worked out and that we definitely need for the time being, you know?
Will it hurt the community atmosphere? Probably not any more than the crap that went on in the FFL. People will at least be encouraged to actually post threads and look at something other than a single thread in the writing forums, and we'd be forced to connect with authors by getting out in the main forum and commenting on what they have to say.
Standards
As I've said repeatedly, the regulars need to review to define what the forum standards are. I'm thinking maybe we should forget the reviewing guide and just see how it goes for now. Or, I can just write the guidelines right now, and they can be these:
1. You're there to help the author by offering honest feedback to their work.
1a. i.e. Point out specific parts of their story you liked or didn't like. Also, don't be a jerk. Snark is not a proper way to review.
2. Reviews don't have to be constructive criticism all the way through. Likewise, they don't have to rip apart a story line by line. A review can be as short as a paragraph as long as you point out specific parts of a story and say what you thought about them.
3. In other words, one-liner reviews aren't much, especially if you just say, "I like it! Please write more!" That doesn't help the author because it says you couldn't pay attention to what's going on in the story.
4. Look up your stuff before commenting on it. Google is your friend. Use it before pointing out stuff that doesn't look right. (This includes alternate spellings or just general fact-checking.)
4a. For that matter, you don't have to capitalize Pokémon names that serve as common nouns (e.g., the pikachu). You just have to be consistent with your capitalization rules.
5. Writers, be courteous to your reviewers. They took the time to wade through your crap, so please don't call their review crap. Listen carefully to what they're trying to say. Think about it. Try their suggestions. Don't blow them off. That means you're not open to criticism, and if you're posting in an open forum for people you've never met, it can be assumed that you are, by default, looking for criticism. In other words, if you blow off a reviewer, respond with hostility, or act condescendingly to your audience, WTF are you doing posting your work on a forum?
6. Proofread before posting. It makes your reviewers less likely to want to strangle your kittens.
6a. There are no exceptions to this rule. You're writing. Play by grammatical rules. Bending the rules all over the place and then trying to say that you're being artistic about them just makes you look like you were too lazy to proofread.
6b. The above rule also applies to canon, characterization, et cetera. Just because it's fiction doesn't necessarily mean you can get away with murder. If your audience points out it doesn't work, chances are, it doesn't work.
And probably a few other things that I can't remember right now.
Rules
They're fine as-is. The only shady one might be the aforementioned standards one, but I'm leaving that discussion open.
Speaking of open discussions, again, just leave the rules open. The more frequently people post questions about the rules to the thread, the more we can just define things that way/keep the thread marked unread so people would actually be more likely to stumble across it.
Regulars' Activity
This is the core problem we were having. The problem that the emblems were supposed to solve, the vet-newbie mentoring thing was supposed to solve, and so on and so forth. Clearly, no one can figure out how to go about solving it.
I've tossed around ideas that don't involve me stalking your profiles and threatening your kittens and ideas that don't involve a NaReWriMo thing happening. Honestly, I've got nothing. Likewise, I know that if I go out there and review, you lot will be sitting around in here. Yes, Mizan, it's lovely that you pointed out the problems again and that you're giving us a pep talk, but you haven't really pointed out any way to actually encourage us to do what you're saying instead of sit around and be hypocritical again, which is really what we keep doing and which is why I don't even know about this project anymore.
Point is, we've considered emblems. We've considered mentoring programs. We've considered reviewing contests. We've even considered just telling people to review. If we want the community to change, it's really got to be a community effort.
The only thing I've got left is one last incentive idea. It's not a contest or a personal challenge. It's just a request that everyone submit one review a day for one month. We could start in June, and yes, I'm just asking for one review. Considering what I've said earlier about reviews, this shouldn't be too difficult, so don't whine at me that you don't want to do it. If you've got enough time to post in these kinds of threads, you've got enough time to sit down and read someone's four-page chapter to say something to them.
Stickies
Screw it. Nobody cares. Let's just do the standards-by-example method like we've been talking about. The rules should stay, of course, because
some people are sane. I just think we need to keep the sticky count to a minimum and divert our attention to the meat of the community. As evidenced by the announcement Astinus made, it'd be more effective if we actually walked out and sat down with newbies.
Or in even shorter terms:
1. No more FFL. The Writer's Lounge
is our discussion place.
2. Fewer stickies.
3. Rules are left as-is but are opened to let the thread become a discussion thread. (This also means we don't have to go to the admins to install a script. It's an easier solution to looking for hacks or asking the PC admins to create one for us.)
4. Regulars enforce the rules through example, thereby establishing a set of standards.
5. Don't be stupid when it comes to reviewing. (See above abridged guide.)
6. Submit one review a day for a month. Don't make Jax break out the kitten bat.
There. There's things we can do. Unless you've got a really good reason for objecting to them, how about we stop screwing around and actually try some of these ideas to see how they work? At the very worst, we'll just be back here to create a thread we need on the fly.