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Democracy makes the purpose of government and authority pointless.

Ivysaur

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Actually, on this topic, I have a question. Let's just say that i feel that my neighbour's car and factory are killing me with their pollution- and I can show medical reports proving that their pollution is, in fact, causing me physical harm and reducing my life expectancy. What do I do? Are those courts only going to work to defend private propierty and will they dismiss this case, or will they rule on it? What happens if the factory owner doesn't want to shut it down even though he's violating my main propierty, aka my own body? Who decides which good is more important? What happens if I win and the factory owner has to shut it down and everybody is forced to not drive? And if I lose, then do I have to accept a court saying that yes, I'm sentenced to die by pollution "for the greater good"?

If you leave law-making to judges, you are essentially creating a small, unelected, unaccountable government. And if they aren't allowed to stablish any sort of precedent, you are inviting chaos and, again, bigger guy beating the small fish.
 
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I suggest we act like equal and responsible human beings who cooperate, organize and settle disputes with each other ourselves rather than whining to those with power to handle everything.

The biggest flaw with your expectations is assuming all people will act like equals and be responsible simply because it is demanded. Several hundred years of extensively documented recent human history shows that is simply near impossible, and less well-documented human history that is known from before that indicates that as well. Humans as a collective unfortunately need mediators to settle disputes non-violently and need the threat of penalties or punishment to consider respecting the belongings of others. Individual humans are quite selfish and this shows itself every day all over the planet.

Constitutions are, by and large, intentionally written to be hard to change, or are altered to be hard to change at a later point in time, though they are intentionally not left as impossible to change because the people writing them are aware they are not omniscient and cannot predict the future. I'm not sure about every constitution worldwide, but I'm under the impression that most constitutional amendments need to be ratified by the citizens living under the rules of that particular constitution after resolutions to bring an amendment up for ratification are done by that region's legislative authority.

A good thing to study would be looking at each individual US state and their constitutions, as well as any changes or lack thereof that were made for ratifying amendments. For example, my own state passed 48 of 66 proposed amendments between 1858, when the state was formed, and 1898, when the state's residents ratified an amendment that changed the requirements for being ratified from needing a simple majority of votes on the amendment itself to it needing a majority of all votes cast that election day whether they voted on the amendment or not. It has passed 72 of 151 proposed amendments in the following 106 years. That is a substantial change in the success rate even with very minimal changes to the requirements for passing. There are probably other states with similar stories, and some states who have significantly more or significantly less amendments to their constitution because of how restrictive or non-restrictive the requirements for changing their constitution are.
 
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Advocates of the irrational concept of government: We as humans can never fully cooperate or be peaceful, so let's get some of those same humans and hope they cooperate and pass laws they are able to force on us. If they are evil or immoral laws, who cares! They were voted in and have authority, we should just respect the process until the next election. If they demand taxes from us that will be used for pointless and destructive wars, who cares! They will use some of that money for roads too.

Anarchists: No one can tell you what is right and wrong, not even politicians. You have the right and responsibility to figure out how to live your life yourself. You also have the right to keep your earned wealth and only spend it on goods and services you need or desire.

Advocates of government: But I want to be told what to do and be punished if I disagree with some of those laws!

Anarchists: You have fun with that, just don't bring me along for the ride.
 
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Ivysaur

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Advocates of the irrational concept of government: We as humans can never fully cooperate or be peaceful, so let's get some of those same humans and hope they cooperate and pass laws they are able to force on us. If they are evil or immoral laws, who cares! They were voted in and have authority, we should just respect the process until the next election. If they demand taxes from us that will be used for pointless and destructive wars, who cares! They will use some of that money for roads too.

Anarchists: No one can tell you what is right and wrong, not even politicians. You have the right and responsibility to figure out how to live your life yourself. You also have the right to keep your earned wealth and only spend it on goods and services you need or desire.

Advocates of government: But I want to be told what to do and be punished if I disagree with some of those laws!

Anarchists: You have fun with that, just don't bring me along for the ride.

Nice straw man you got there. Hope you have fun playing with it!
 

Ivysaur

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I would if you actually tried to explain why it's a straw man.

I'm afraid that if you can't see what it's a straw man just by yourself, then there isn't much any of us can do. ta-ta!

But as I love to help, I'll just throw in a description of what a straw man is, just in case.

Wikipedia said:
For example:

Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then denying that person's arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[2]
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
 
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Simple disproof of "authority" and "government":

Do I have the right to tell you murder is wrong and protect people who are being assaulted, or do I need to run for office and pass laws giving me that right? Do we need politicians to pass a law declaring theft is illegal for the police to have the right to apprehend thieves? If I say gay rights should be universal, but politicians in my country don't pass laws supporting these rights, should gays not have rights until some group of people in "government" say they do?
 
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Simple disproof of "authority" and "government":

Do I have the right to tell you murder is wrong and protect people who are being assaulted, or do I need to run for office and pass laws giving me that right? Do we need politicians to pass a law declaring theft is illegal for the police to have the right to apprehend thieves? If I say gay rights should be universal, but politicians in my country don't pass laws supporting these rights, should gays not have rights until some group of people in "government" say they do?

You have the right to tell me whatever you want, you live in a society where freedom of speech is a big deal. That's why you're allowed to come here and spew your anti-government vitriol.

How about instead of attacking the government because people having power scares you, you take a look at the weaknesses of your own stance. The very problems you have with government will be exacerbated by anarchy not remedied by it.
 
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You have the right to tell me whatever you want, you live in a society where freedom of speech is a big deal.
Thanks for the update.

That's why you're allowed to come here and spew your anti-government vitriol.
If a group of people are committing immoral acts and they are viewed as having the right to do so just because they have the label of "government" and "authority", you bet I'm going to argue against it. The way you describe my posts shows how emotionally and irrationally attached you are to the most idiotic and destructive concept mankind has ever invented.

How about instead of attacking the government because people having power scares you, you take a look at the weaknesses of your own stance. The very problems you have with government will be exacerbated by anarchy not remedied by it.
Yeah, I'm sure people not being able to use the excuse of law and authority to commit evil will make the world much worse off. How about you stop advocating and condoning evil instead?
 
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Thanks for the update.

Whilst we're on that topic, you have that right because your government legislated it. How evil of them! :O

If a group of people are committing immoral acts and they are viewed as having the right to do so just because they have the label of "government" and "authority", you bet I'm going to argue against it. The way you describe my posts shows how emotionally and irrationally attached you are to the most idiotic and destructive concept mankind has ever invented.

I'm emotionally and irrationally attached? Not really, I just understand how the real world works. I would rather have a government keep society in order than the chaos that would ensue from an anarchy.

Yeah, I'm sure people not being able to use the excuse of law and authority to commit evil will make the world much worse off. How about you stop advocating and condoning evil instead?

You can call it evil as much as you like, but that's not fact that's your opinion. Quite frankly though, I'd rather have a government I have the ability to change occasionally making sketchy decisions that an ungoverned society where people can and do whatever the hell they want because there's nobody policing them or running things.

You think that the government are immoral? That's a common trait in humans and I'd rather have a small number of supposedly immoral people held accountable by my vote than an entire society of miscreants with no accountability.

I'm not endorsing evil, I'm endorsing logic. Something that your posts don't possess a lot of at the moment.
 

Ivysaur

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Again, you seem to believe that Government is some sort of curse laid upon us by aliens instead of a structure created by us humans; and that if Government were to be removed, suddenly everybody would be nice and respectful to each other, without realising that Government was developed by us to begin with because, back when it didn't exist, we humans... weren't nice nor respectful to each other. You are essentially advocating for human society to go back millenia. And even a society with no "Government" and no "laws" will always have some sort of leader, invested with the authority of her fellow citizens trusting her judgement to overcome challenging situations. After all, every company has a Government of its own (CEO, Board of Directors, intermediate bosses, etc.). Should those go as well?
 
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Whilst we're on that topic, you have that right because your government legislated it. How evil of them! :O
If the group of people called "government" believe we need their permission to have the right to free speech, they are mistaken. Also, again, it's not "my" government; they are just a group of people. They don't have the right to tell me what to do just because they say so.

I'm emotionally and irrationally attached? Not really, I just understand how the real world works. I would rather have a government keep society in order than the chaos that would ensue from anarchy.
Government doesn't create order, organization and mutual agreement does. It's government that creates chaos by creating an incentive for people to invade and overthrow it to claim the power for themselves.

You can call it evil as much as you like, but that's not fact that's your opinion.
It's a fact. When a group of people labelled "government" are automatically entitled to part of their subjects' incomes regardless how they (the government) spend it, of course they will use more of that money to pursue their own interests and agenda than the public's. When the "government" is seen as having the right to legislate out of thin air, of course they will create laws that benefit them and their connections more often than not.

Quite frankly though, I'd rather have a government I have the ability to change occasionally making sketchy decisions that an ungoverned society where people can and do whatever the hell they want because there's nobody policing them or running things.
You think the fact that you can vote matters? The bankers, corporations and other elite are laughing at you if you do, sorry. Also, people "won't be able to do whatever the hell they want" because they will still understand basic principles they should abide by to live worthwhile and meaningful lives. There will still be organization, and people will defend themselves and others against others who are violent and/or violate their rights.

You think that the government is immoral?
Not only that, also the fact that people believe they have the right to be immoral when they commit their acts under the name of "law" and "authority".

That's a common trait in humans and I'd rather have a small number of supposedly immoral people held accountable by my vote than an entire society of miscreants with no accountability.
People would still be held accountable without "government", just not by a group of people claiming the exclusive right to tax you and decide what people will be held accountable for. It's ironic how taxes to pay for the police are mandatory, but joining the police is voluntary.

I'm not endorsing evil, I'm endorsing logic. Something that your posts don't possess a lot of at the moment.
I'd love to see you try to explain how wanting a group of people to tell you what to do, even if you disagree with some of their laws and how they spend your money, is logical.

Again, you seem to believe that Government is some sort of curse laid upon us by aliens instead of a structure created by us humans; and that if Government were to be removed, suddenly everybody would be nice and respectful to each other...
Why does everyone who advocates for "government" think that everyone who doesn't believes we are perfect? I know we're not perfect, it's not a secret.

...without realising that Government was developed by us to begin with because, back when it didn't exist, we humans... weren't nice nor respectful to each other.
And we still aren't. By the way, we can organize and decide how to interact in society without government. The only element government adds is the ridiculous idea that the people in government have the right to engage in immoral acts because they are "authority". They are authority because they have extra rights over those they are ruling; without it they are just normal humans. If all normal humans already inherently have the right to live in a good manner, such as by being virtuous, kind and productive, and if they already have the right to defend themselves and stop aggressors in an appropriate manner, what rights are left that only the people with "authority" have? The right to be immoral.

You are essentially advocating for human society to go back millenia.
No, government doesn't create the knowledge we need for essential moral principles and technology to live in a modern, civilized society.

And even a society with no "Government" and no "laws" will always have some sort of leader, invested with the authority of her fellow citizens trusting her judgement to overcome challenging situations.
Leaders are different than rulers, in the sense that they don't have the right to force anyone to follow them. If people want to give some authority to a leader in some circumstances by voluntary choice, that's fine. Government is not voluntary, and everyone under its jurisdiction has to abide by the laws it passes regardless of whether some people object or not.

There is no such thing as "consent of the governed"; How does living or being born on a piece of land suddenly give the right to a group of people to 1) claim they preside over a vast amount of territory and 2) tell me what to do? Also, only I can consent to anything, other people in society can't consent for me to be ruled by "government". The same applies for every individual.

After all, every company has a Government of its own (CEO, Board of Directors, intermediate bosses, etc.). Should those go as well?
CEO's can't force their employees to work for them if the employees want to quit when they become unsatisfied and don't believe their conditions at the company can improve. "Governments" force all the laws they create on their subjects. If you're going to tell me that I can move to another country, the "government" where I live will charge me $2,350 to do so just because they say so. Sounds legit.
 

Ivysaur

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Hey, I looked for a quote for that last line.

Libertarian business structures greatly resemble government hierarchies, even military hierarchies in the case of Taylorism. It seems contradictory to opine that citizens do not need rulers while maintaining that workers need managers; libertarians claim this is fine because joining a business is voluntary, although some critics of libertarianism would point out that changing jobs is not always possible, and that this argument would only be applicable if there actually were an abundance of businesses without such hierarchies who are hiring, and that resigning is not an option because (especially when there is no welfare state) it may result in them being unable to afford food, water, housing, etc. In other words, this type of "freedom" means "the freedom to choose one's own masters or to starve under a bridge."

Next, I'm not saying that governments "create the knowledge we need for essential moral principles and technology to live in a modern, civilized society". I'm not saying, or implying that. I say that government IS a creation of human society. I say that society came first, and then human society created some system of governance (that also evolved along the millenia) in order to facilitate human relations. Therefore, removing government would mean going back all the way back to the point before we humans created it as the easiest way to keep an order in our social relations.

Also, only I can consent to anything, other people in society can't consent for me to be ruled by "government". The same applies for every individual.

The problem is that humans don't live as a collection of separate, alienated, insulated individuals, but rather as a society with shared interests, personal relations and different goals that can only be achieved as a team. If anybody was free to just break their compromises, implied or explicit, whenever they wanted, chaos would reign and the unpredictability would make long-term progress utterly impossible. And, of course, in order for cooperation to exist, people must agree to some shared basics first. That is, in itself, a form of governance, even if it's not this particular form of government you hate so much, it's one nonetheless. The definition of government doesn't necessarily include "holding elections every four months, having 143 public agencies and a seat in Washington, D.C.". Simply agreeing that you cross the street when you have a green light and that you have to give way to cars going on your right/left/whatever your community has decided, that's a form of governance already. If every single one of us had to explicitly sign a piece of paper saying "I accept stopping my vehicle when I see a STOP sign", any order in any road would be completely unworkable.

Not only that, also the fact that people believe they have the right to be immoral when they commit their acts under the name of "law" and "authority".

I wish you'd explain this better as it makes no sense.

Government doesn't create order, organization and mutual agreement does.

And that, is a form of governance: organisation and mutual agreement. The problem is that if every group of five people can make their own different and contradicting agreements and hire someone to enforce them, then you have no order at all.

Incidentally, I want to raise the issue of "what is private property". Quoting RationalWiki,

Libertarians speak of "property" and "contract," as if these legal ideas somehow had meaning in the absence of law. Law is what matures mere possession or occupancy into "property". It's what allows your right to your dwelling to persist even when you leave it. These rights must be recognized by the consensus of local society to exist. The process that creates that consensus is a government, whether it's arrived at formally with pomp and circumstance by legislators and kings, or the result of an ad hoc discussion around the campfire. That consensus may be expressed more or less formally, but it necessarily includes definitions and limits.

In fact, property has always been the creation of a lawmaker, and therefore some sort of a government. Much valuable wealth in civilized countries takes the form of such things as publicly traded stock and "intellectual property." The more important property rights are, the likelier they are to be embodied in legal documents like deeds, title documents, and statements of account. The market for real estate would be much less efficient without deeds registered at a government office that showed who owned what. Law called all of these things into being. The same holds true of contracts.
 
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Before we go on, I'd like those advocates of "government" to define it and/or "authority" in their own terms. I don't want an official dictionary term word for word, I want your own view of what those concepts imply.
 

Ivysaur

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A government is an organisation that sets common rules and policies for a community, manages public goods and companies (including the ones making sure that the rules are followed, such as any sort of police, courts and army) and administrates public funds. That's it, you don't require a massive system with five million workers and nuclear bombs, just being the one in charge to set rules and enforce them. You can also have both functions divided: someone sets the rules and someone else applies them (and someone else entirely tries people who allegedly broke them) to make it less likely that the same group of people will control all of them and try to twist the rulebook in their favour, which is the way most modern systems try to follow.

Authority is the power of said administration to set those rules for the community as a whole and have people accept them even if they personally do not agree with some (or any) of them, as well as to require all members of the community to contribute to the fund to run all of the above in order to avoid cases of "free riders".

Notice how a group of 25 people from an isolated town agreeing on a common set of rules for whatever and having someone from the group of their own choosing make sure that they are followed would already imply a proto-government and authority, as all the people who agreed to said rules also trust the watchdog they have appointed to apply them fairly.

Of course, it's easier to gain authority when you allow all the members of the community to have a say in the discussion of the rules and policies and to oversee the activities of the companies and the usage of funds, which is why democracy (ie. having polls and freely giving all citizens the possibility to get into government) is such a popular way to organise the system, as it makes far less likely that your co-citizens will feel ignored and oppressed, but you can also have dictatorial administrations if someone who manages to gather force (buying weapons, or having the rich and the strong gang up) imposes himself on the weaker ones and makes them follow his rules by force.
 
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I have to say, your assertions are all just that. I'd suggest you think of something to back up your claims, because there's literally none.

Alright then, here you go:

http://www.mintpressnews.com/lawmak...ticians-arrest-prosecution-corruption/201937/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...fa7d94-f3a9-11e1-a612-3cfc842a6d89_story.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/26/congresss-obamacare-exemption-itself-ok-judge-rule/

Waste of tax money:

http://www.news.com.au/national/pol...n/news-story/254c2cb0858b56fb89ed65f547bee3f0

http://myfirstclasslife.com/10-ridi...icians-wasting-government-money/?singlepage=1

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/ejde...ative-shuttle-services-for-federal-employees/

These are just some examples I could find of course, there are bound to be more. I haven't been replying quickly to the posts on this thread because of school work, but when I have the time I will address the other points raised by other posters here.
 

Crizzle

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This thread is pretty much 1 man vs the world. Got to respect Philosophizer for taking on so many others at the same time.
 
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Politicians can be corrupt. But tell us something novel or something we don't know. Businessmen can be corrupt, doctors and nurses can be corrupt, teachers can be corrupt, and the clergy can be corrupt.
 
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Politicians can be corrupt. But tell us something novel or something we don't know. Businessmen can be corrupt, doctors and nurses can be corrupt, teachers can be corrupt, and the clergy can be corrupt.
None of the professions you mentioned besides politicians are seen as having authority, or the right to force others to obey them even if they disagree with some of the politicians' commands ("laws" in this case).

I remember someone on this thread claimed the politicians in government aren't rulers, which is ridiculous and naive. "Citizen" is just a nicer term for the word "subject", but that's exactly what people are to the governments that rule over their jurisdictions: subjects.
 
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None of the professions you mentioned besides politicians are seen as having authority, or the right to force others to obey them even if they disagree with some of the politicians' commands ("laws" in this case).

I remember someone on this thread claimed the politicians in government aren't rulers, which is ridiculous and naive. "Citizen" is just a nicer term for the word "subject", but that's exactly what people are to the governments that rule over their jurisdictions: subjects.

Politicians don't have authority. Law enforcement does.

If you disobey the law, you should be punished. But if you disagree with the legal system, then shouldn't you pick another society to live in? If you don't consent to be ruled by the laws of the land, then you don't deserve to be protected under those laws either.
 
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