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Do You Think There Is Hope For Future Pokemon Games?

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    • Seen Feb 12, 2023
    I think we all at some point within the last few gens or so you have felt a little hopeless that the games will never be as good as they were back in the earlier entries. I don't recall a Pokemon game in recent memory that didn't have some sort of controversy surrounding it (besides maybe LA, but that's debatable). Do you think there is any hope left that the games will have that same level of quality ever again? For me, the answer is...maybe. I do think the worst of the franchise is behind us, but I don't know if Game Freak will bother putting enough time into making a truely exceptional game. However, for the first time in a long time the new generation did attempt to mix up the formula, and the attempt alone makes me believe that someone still cares at Game Freak.
     

    Sweet Serenity

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  • I think we all at some point within the last few gens or so you have felt a little hopeless that the games will never be as good as they were back in the earlier entries. I don't recall a Pokemon game in recent memory that didn't have some sort of controversy surrounding it (besides maybe LA, but that's debatable). Do you think there is any hope left that the games will have that same level of quality ever again? For me, the answer is...maybe. I do think the worst of the franchise is behind us, but I don't know if Game Freak will bother putting enough time into making a truely exceptional game. However, for the first time in a long time the new generation did attempt to mix up the formula, and the attempt alone makes me believe that someone still cares at Game Freak.

    I take it this question is mostly aimed at people that have been playing Pokémon almost all their life and look back at the previous games with nostalgia. Personally, I've never felt hopeless that the games would never be good as they were back in the earlier days. Instead, I believe that the games have improved in many ways, mainly in terms of quality. However, generation V is still my favorite generation because it had the best story, the most new Pokémon introduced in the series, a region based on where I was born and raised, and the best legendaries and lore surrounding them. Yet, in terms of graphics, new features, quality of life improvements such as the removal of HMs, the Fairy-typing to balance things out, and so on, the future entries improved the series drastically. Just because something has controversy surrounding it doesn't mean it isn't good or that its quality is retrogressing.

    If anything, many Pokémon fans are simply very hard to satisfy and nitpick everything from random tree textures to starters being bipedal, to the Exp. Share feature. Pokémon fans would always have something to complain about, no doubt. I believe that the future of Pokémon is great and they are heading in the right direction. A truly open-world Pokémon game is something fans wanted a long time and based on my experiences playing Pokémon Violet, it is arguably the most fun I ever had playing Pokémon. I loved the free exploration without roadblocks, and I felt like I was in Heaven when catching Pokémon all throughout the region. My only real complaint about Pokémon this era is the lack of every Pokémon and move being included in the games. It slightly ruins the experience to me because it holds back the competitive scene from being good as it is, and it results in a lack of variety of Pokémon when attempting to build teams and establish their roles.

    In my opinion, if the developers can continue the direction of Pokémon Scarlet and Violet, but without the glitches and every Pokémon and move included in future games, Pokémon would be perfect these days. However, fans nowadays are practically the reason that Pokémon isn't as good as it could be because they praise things that only encourages them to be lazy. For example, many fans seemed to appreciate the existence of regional forms. Sure, while they might make sense on paper, it only gives Game Freak an excuse to not work on new designs as well as they can. It got to the point where generation IX gave us Paradox Pokémon and convergent species based on previous Pokémon such as Wiglett, which is ultimately laziness. It never ceases to amaze me how so many Pokémon fans complain about Game Freak's development of the newer games, yet, they openly support features and designs that only contribute to Game Freak's laziness.
     
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  • Hard thing to say, seeing as many people would probably argue what IS the last good gen. That said the recent games have shown promise and im sure things can get even better in the future. Honestly if they just made a game that had a post game worth a dime id be happy on that alone
     
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    If anything, many Pokémon fans are simply very hard to satisfy and nitpick everything from random tree textures to starters being bipedal, to the Exp. Share feature. Pokémon fans would always have something to complain about, no doubt. I believe that the future of Pokémon is great and they are heading in the right direction. A truly open-world Pokémon game is something fans wanted a long time and based on my experiences playing Pokémon Violet, it is arguably the most fun I ever had playing Pokémon. I loved the free exploration without roadblocks, and I felt like I was in Heaven when catching Pokémon all throughout the region. My only real complaint about Pokémon this era is the lack of every Pokémon and move being included in the games. It slightly ruins the experience to me because it holds back the competitive scene from being good as it is, and it results in a lack of variety of Pokémon when attempting to build teams and establish their roles.
    While I do agree that Scarlet and Violet do have tons of good ideas and that the series is currently going in a positive direction, the main issue is the continuous removal of old features, options, and polish that the older games had. For example, the issue isn't that the Exp Share is manditory, but rather the fact that it wasn't always manditory. There was a point in the series where you could turn the item on and off as you please (each setting appealing to different players), but Game Freak removed the option for no logical reason. Similar stories have happened with set mode and turning off battle animations. There is no excuse for why these staple features should be removed in the latest titles when games from 10 years ago had them along with plenty of other content. That's not even mentioning the massive lack of content in the postgame or bugs, both of which are telling of how little dev time this game was given. I criticize the games because I care, and I want Pokemon to be the best series it can be.

    Also, I think it's really dumb to trash on reigonal forms. If an evolution of a Pokemon is welcome, than a new Pokemon subvariety that has adapted to the conditions around it should be just as welcome. You cannot tell me Pokemon like Mr. Rime or Alolan Exeggutor didn't fit in perfectly to their respective reigon's culture and style. I guess you could say they should have been their own unique species, but would that really change anything? They would have the same stats, moves, just...different names with a design that would be based around the exact same premise. They might not be the most creative thing Game Freak has ever done, but I think it would be plain wrong to say that they are actively hurting the series.
     

    Sweet Serenity

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  • While I do agree that Scarlet and Violet do have tons of good ideas and that the series is currently going in a positive direction, the main issue is the continuous removal of old features, options, and polish that the older games had. For example, the issue isn't that the Exp Share is manditory, but rather the fact that it wasn't always manditory. There was a point in the series where you could turn the item on and off as you please (each setting appealing to different players), but Game Freak removed the option for no logical reason. Similar stories have happened with set mode and turning off battle animations. There is no excuse for why these staple features should be removed in the latest titles when games from 10 years ago had them along with plenty of other content. That's not even mentioning the massive lack of content in the postgame or bugs, both of which are telling of how little dev time this game was given. I criticize the games because I care, and I want Pokemon to be the best series it can be.

    Also, I think it's really dumb to trash on reigonal forms. If an evolution of a Pokemon is welcome, than a new Pokemon subvariety that has adapted to the conditions around it should be just as welcome. You cannot tell me Pokemon like Mr. Rime or Alolan Exeggutor didn't fit in perfectly to their respective reigon's culture and style. I guess you could say they should have been their own unique species, but would that really change anything? They would have the same stats, moves, just...different names with a design that would be based around the exact same premise. They might not be the most creative thing Game Freak has ever done, but I think it would be plain wrong to say that they are actively hurting the series.

    I personally fail to fathom why anybody would want to turn off the Exp. Share to begin with, as it greatly shortens the grind of leveling up your Pokémon throughout a playthrough. As for Pokémon Scarlet and Violet removing Set mode, I agree, as I always view the games as more challenging when played within Set mode. Without the Set mode option, the game constantly asking if you want to switch Pokémon is simply annoying. As for Pokémon Scarlet and Violet development time, it started development in late 2019, around the same time that Pokémon Sword and Shield was released. For the most part, Pokémon games within new generations have always been released approximately every three years, which is around the same time for Pokémon Scarlet and Violet, meaning that they had enough time to develop the games. Simply put, the developers simply did not put enough love and care into the games because they're much lazier than they used to be. My main issue with regional forms is that they don't encourage creativity and hard work from the development team.

    Instead, it encourages them to rehash an old Pokémon and change its typing and appearance a bit instead of creating an entirely new Pokémon or using the space to bring back older Pokémon that haven't appeared in a mainline game since generation VII. If more Pokémon fans welcome this, the developers are simply going to keep creating them, resulting in them being less likely to bring back old Pokémon or create new original designs. As for Mr. Rime, it wasn't merely a regional variant, but rather an evolution for a regional variant, which was Galarian Mr. Mime. Despite this, this creates a problem as a result of regional variants because only the regional variant can evolve, meaning that if the variant existed in a game that doesn't take place in Galar, it wouldn't be able to evolve, which is an inconvenience to players. Thus, I feel that it would have made more sense either to create an entirely new Ice-type Pokémon that could have fit the region instead, or simply make all Mr. Mime evolve into Mr. Rime regardless of regional form.

    For example, Mr. Rime could have been a Psychic/Fairy Pokémon if evolved normally or an Ice/Psychic Pokémon if evolved while leveling up in a cold area. Yet, having to play a Galar game to evolve your Mr. Mime to Mr. Rime or your Galarian Farfetch'd to SirFetch'd is hurting the game when all Mr. Mime and Farfetch'd should be able to evolve. As for Alolan Exeggutor, I disagree. Instead, I believe the developers should have just created a separate Pokémon based on a tall palm tree rather than make Exeggutor look even goofier by stretching its neck. They also made it Grass/Dragon for some reason and it can't even learn any good Dragon-type moves it can take advantage of. The main reason I say that they're hurting the series is because they're only causing the developers to get lazier, which, in turn, ruins the health of the game. For instance, Paradox Pokémon are a lazy attempt to rehash Pokémon that already exist, but give them stats similar to that of a minor legendary Pokémon. As long as they exist, this basically invalidates the Pokémon they are based on.

    For instance, Flutter Mane is an ancient version of Misdreavus in a generation that Misdreavus and Mismagius can be found in. However, if you can use the ancient version of Misdreavus, which is stronger than Mismagius with a better typing, why would players even want to use Mismagius in the first place? Game Freak's laziness is basically invaliding the existence of previous real Pokémon, not "Pokémon" that only exist to sell the newest generation's gimmick. That's not helping the game; it's hurting the game. As for regional variants, they ruin Pokémon because the more fans welcome them, the more likely they would continue making them and do that instead of bringing back all other Pokémon from previous games. Pokémon games without a full roster of Pokémon is simply worse than one with the majority of Pokémon missing, along with various alternate versions of the same Pokémon. Mark my words: I'm willing to bet everything I own that we are going to get gimmick alternate rehashes of box legendaries next.
     

    Duck

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    There are two main statements here that I think are important to reconsider, especially since you're new to the forums, so I don't know if you're new to the fandom in general.

    ForsetiMaster06 said:
    I don't recall a Pokemon game in recent memory that didn't have some sort of controversy surrounding it (besides maybe LA, but that's debatable).

    Do you think there is any hope left that the games will have that same level of quality ever again?
    Even older Pokemon games were met with some kind of controversy and/or criticism that faded with time but in time became seen as "good" due to a mix of nostalgia and not liking the current thing.

    Ruby and Sapphire didn't do well at the time because, among other things, the lack of backwards compatibility. Game Freak decided to retool the way they did Pokemon in Gen III and with that they couldn't find out a way to port Pokemon from Gen II to Gen III. People hated this, it was the Dexit of its time. The eventual release of FRLG and then the portability to DPP made people forget this. Now Gen III is seen as a beloved set of games.

    Black and White among other things, was considered a lot more linear, changed the EXP formula without the new Exp Share and had you go an entire main plot without access to old Pokémon. People hated this, it was the Dexit of its time. For a long time you couldn't mention Unova (iTs IsShU aCkShUaLlY) or Black and White without someone hating on it. Now to a lot of people Black and White are seen as the pinnacle of Pokemon.

    XY, among other things, moved to 3D, and was considered too easy. People hated this, there are now people saying that the pinnacle of Pokemon was actually XY.

    And so on. I'm not saying those games were awful or that they're great or anything. They have their flaws and strengths like any other game, but people in general (and Pokemon fans in particular) have a tendency to forget about their complaints in the past when comparing to something new and different.

    There are always a thousand paper cuts that make people angry and when they heal, people forget they exist.

    Back to the question at hand: the cynical answer is yes and no. Yes, there are people trying to innovate, and no because corporate won't give the team the resources they need to actually improve the games by much. Pokemon is, perhaps counterintuitively, a lot of the time more profitable without the polish, to the dismay of the game fans.

    Modern Pokemon is uniquely held back by corporate decisions and its place as the generation starter in the Pokemon machine. If a generation could start with say, the anime or the manga or the TCG or whatever the games would get the time they need to improve and mature. Alas, it's unlikely to ever happen.

    For the most part, Pokémon games within new generations have always been released approximately every three years, which is around the same time for Pokémon Scarlet and Violet, meaning that they had enough time to develop the games. Simply put, the developers simply did not put enough love and care into the games because they're much lazier than they used to be.

    While it is true that Scarlet and Violet had 3 years for development according to Game Freak, that's not enough time to properly develop an open world 3D game that isn't Minecraft. Breath of the Wild took 5 years to develop and it still chugs in the Nintendo Switch sometimes. Elden Ring also took 5 years to develop, Red Dead Redemption 2 took 8 years to develop.

    Scarlet and Violet were easily the most ambitious Pokemon projects to date and while they are ultimately deeply flawed they were not given enough time to develop.

    Not to mention that the concept of a AAA game dev, in Japan, being lazy is just not likely in and of itself. The AAA gamedev is an industry known for extreme overworking, where people are routinely exploited due to their passion, whose workers are seen as more disposable due to the constant influx of new CS graduates that want to work with games and who are routinely exposed to death threats and hate campaigns due to disgruntled players (do you remember #BringBackNationalDex death threats?).

    Japan is also (in)famously known for having very strict work hours to the point where office workers often don't even go home, spending the night at the office or at a capsule hotel and they have their own word for "dying from overworking". There's a reason the Metapod sleeping bag ad that went viral years ago show an office worker and not people camping.

    I find it extremely improbable that Pokemon games in particular have lazy devs when it's not a thing anywhere else in the industry, and when the current generation of devs entering the workforce grew up with Pokemon meaning they're that much easier to exploit.

    My main issue with regional forms is that they don't encourage creativity and hard work from the development team. [...] Instead, I believe the developers should have just created a separate Pokémon based on a tall palm tree rather than make Exeggutor look even goofier by stretching its neck. [...] The main reason I say that they're hurting the series is because they're only causing the developers to get lazier, which, in turn, ruins the health of the game.

    Modern Pokémon is a AAA franchise, the developers aren't getting anywhere near the creation of Pokémon, allocation of movesets, etc.. There are dedicated teams for that (and the results are most likely tested in some way, so not even those teams necessarily get the final say over anything) and in a few cases we even know exactly who was the designer responsible.

    If anyone's getting lazier, it's the directors. From your complaints, it seems that the people you're angry at are likely either Ohmori (the game director) or Ibe (the art director), not the developers who don't get any kind of creative input.
     
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    Black and White among other things, was considered a lot more linear, changed the EXP formula without the new Exp Share and had you go an entire main plot without access to old Pokémon. People hated this, it was the Dexit of its time. For a long time you couldn't mention Unova (iTs IsShU aCkShUaLlY) or Black and White without someone hating on it. Now to a lot of people Black and White are seen as the pinnacle of Pokemon.
    I really want to thank you for bringing this up. I was brought into the series with Gens 4 and 5, so a lot of controversies were before my time or just simply so long ago i'd forgotten. I will say this might have led to some bias in the original post, but I hope my point is still clear enough.
    Instead, I believe the developers should have just created a separate Pokémon based on a tall palm tree rather than make Exeggutor look even goofier by stretching its neck.
    Exeggutor being goofy is the whole point, man. As for your points on making a new Pokemon or an evolution instead, those both bring up issues. If you make an original Pokemon, it is far more likely to be forgettable within the midst of the Pokedex of its respective gen (you can really only make a palm tree so interesting). As for an evolution, you risk alienating those who like the original Exeggutor, and as gen 4 showed us creating evolutions to fan favorites can be very controversial. By making a unique form that matches the reigon, it enhances the culture of the reigon, allows old players to use the original if they choose, and if anything guaruntees that that the original form of the evolution line will be in the game.
     
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  • I For example, many fans seemed to appreciate the existence of regional forms. Sure, while they might make sense on paper, it only gives Game Freak an excuse to not work on new designs as well as they can. It got to the point where generation IX gave us Paradox Pokémon and convergent species based on previous Pokémon such as Wiglett, which is ultimately laziness. It never ceases to amaze me how so many Pokémon fans complain about Game Freak's development of the newer games, yet, they openly support features and designs that only contribute to Game Freak's laziness.

    Regional forms are essentially pokemons palette swaps, something that has been a common thing in rpgs since the beginning, i dont see the point in getting THIS vitriolic about it. If anything the fact it took them til gen 7 to start doing it is impressive. I will say paradox pokemon are kinda dumb though as are the "kinda not really regionals" like wiglet, but id bet thats a compromise for lack of time
     
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    Were the old games really that good or we just had much lower standards?

    In other words, what actually made the old games, that had fewer Pokémon, moves, and lacked plenty of features that we take for granted nowadays, superior?
    Were they more challenging?
    Did they have a more enjoyable game progression?
    Did they have a better story or characters?
    Were pixels better than 3D?
    Were the days of Dragon supremacy and infinite weather better times?

    I mean, what makes a Pokémon game good or bad is subjective, I can totally agree that older games might have handled some aspects better, but so do the newer ones in other areas.

    At the end, it depends on what aspects of the experience each individual player enjoys and values more.
     
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    Were the old games really that good or we just had much lower standards?

    In other words, what actually made the old games, that had fewer Pokémon, moves, and lacked plenty of features that we take for granted nowadays, superior?
    Were they more challenging?
    Did they have a more enjoyable game progression?
    Did they have a better story or characters?
    Were pixels better than 3D?
    Were the days of Dragon supremacy and infinite weather better times?

    I mean, what makes a Pokémon game good or bad is subjective, I can totally agree that older games might have handled some aspects better, but so do the newer ones in other areas.

    At the end, it depends on what aspects of the experience each individual player enjoys and values more.

    For me at the very least it was a mixture of much better challenge, content, and overall polish of the earlier games that make them so much better to me. Comparing Gen 8 and 9 to games such as Platinum or Black and White 2, there's so much that the newer games lack. There's way less optional and/or postgame content, forced mechanics like affection and the mandatory exp share make steamrolling through the game far too easy, and especially recently the games have not been getting enough development time thier scope needs. I won't deny i've had fun, even a blast, enjoying what the latest games have to offer. At the end of the day though, these core pillars of gameplay seem to have been weaker in recent installments, and that's whats stopping me from really loving these games like I used to.
     

    Sweet Serenity

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  • Exeggutor being goofy is the whole point, man. As for your points on making a new Pokemon or an evolution instead, those both bring up issues. If you make an original Pokemon, it is far more likely to be forgettable within the midst of the Pokedex of its respective gen (you can really only make a palm tree so interesting). As for an evolution, you risk alienating those who like the original Exeggutor, and as gen 4 showed us creating evolutions to fan favorites can be very controversial. By making a unique form that matches the reigon, it enhances the culture of the reigon, allows old players to use the original if they choose, and if anything guaruntees that that the original form of the evolution line will be in the game.

    Yet, Alolan Exeggutor looks too goofy to even take seriously. I don't think that making an original Pokémon is "far more likely" to be forgettable in its debut Pokédex. If a Pokémon has good qualities, such as a good typing, stats, move set, and so on, it will get the attention that it deserves. However, I can guarantee you that nobody uses Alolan Exeggutor except for when making memes about its ridiculous neck. Simply because fans can be alienated by having their favorite Pokémon evolve doesn't mean that they would all share the same sentiment. The developers obviously can't please every fan. The possibility also exists that many fans would love the fact that their favorite Pokémon can evolve and become stronger. I am all in favor of enhancing the culture of a region, but I am not convinced that regional forms are the way to go about it. As for the originals, people always have the option to use them without being relevant to their regional variants.

    Regional forms are essentially pokemons palette swaps, something that has been a common thing in rpgs since the beginning, i dont see the point in getting THIS vitriolic about it. If anything the fact it took them til gen 7 to start doing it is impressive. I will say paradox pokemon are kinda dumb though as are the "kinda not really regionals" like wiglet, but id bet thats a compromise for lack of time

    I always thought that palette swaps were either the result of laziness or developmental limitations. Just because something can be considered traditional doesn't mean that it should be done.

    For me at the very least it was a mixture of much better challenge, content, and overall polish of the earlier games that make them so much better to me. Comparing Gen 8 and 9 to games such as Platinum or Black and White 2, there's so much that the newer games lack. There's way less optional and/or postgame content, forced mechanics like affection and the mandatory exp share make steamrolling through the game far too easy, and especially recently the games have not been getting enough development time thier scope needs. I won't deny i've had fun, even a blast, enjoying what the latest games have to offer. At the end of the day though, these core pillars of gameplay seem to have been weaker in recent installments, and that's whats stopping me from really loving these games like I used to.

    Pokémon Sword and Shield had two whole DLC expansions that added a lot of content to the games, which more than the old games. Generation 9 is likely to get some DLC soon as well. The thing about Pokémon games is that they are never challenging. A player can steamroll through Pokémon without the affection system or mandatory Exp. Share. The new games have definitely many improvements compared to the old games. You are no longer bombarded with having to teach your Pokémon HM moves, Pokémon appear in the overworld now, and in generation 9, you can explore an open world without roadblocks. The future of Pokémon is great. All we need now is a full Pokédex.
     
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    Pokémon Sword and Shield had two whole DLC expansions that added a lot of content to the games, which more than the old games. Generation 9 is likely to get some DLC soon as well. The thing about Pokémon games is that they are never challenging. A player can steamroll through Pokémon without the affection system or mandatory Exp. Share. The new games have definitely many improvements compared to the old games. You are no longer bombarded with having to teach your Pokémon HM moves, Pokémon appear in the overworld now, and in generation 9, you can explore an open world without roadblocks. The future of Pokémon is great. All we need now is a full Pokédex.

    In terms of what Gen 8 DLC brought to the table, here were a few neat ideas (many of which did get fully realized in Gen 9), but overall they felt a little shallow. I view the DLC as experiments by Game Freak, and while I personally think it's a fantastic way to tide the fans over without interfering with other projects in terms of what they actually provide (especially compared to games like HGSS where i've spent months in the side content alone) it was fairly minimal.

    As for the difficulty, I understand that Pokemon has never truely been a "hard" game. At the end of the day, these games are for kids. (Heck, I remember struggling with X/Y a bit when I was little despite being some of the easiest games for me now). I'm more just upset it doesn't work like in USUM anymore, that's all. At the very least the level scaling on trainers has gotten a bit better over time.

    The one thing I will 100% agree on is the removal of HMs. I've been replaying through Platinum recently and they are just as if not more cumbersome of a system than I remember. Areas like Mt. Coronet and Victory Road require so many of them it hinders what is otherwise my favorite reigon to explore and find secrets in. I have my own complaints about the Ride Pokemon of Gen 9, but they still are leagues better than what field navigation was back then.

    Lastly, I want to apologize if i've seemed a bit aggressive toward you in my thread replies Sweet Serenity. Joining this site has finally let me gush out my bottled-up opinons on this franchise and looking back at some of my posts I feel like I was ranting about how your opinon was wrong. I don't want to be like how I was back in early Gen 8, where most discussions ended up with me getting unreasonably upset. There are some Poketubers I hate like Verlisify who start beef like that all the time, and I want to be better than that. I have no idea if you took my posts that way, but I thought i'd mention it regardless.
     
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    For me at the very least it was a mixture of much better challenge, content, and overall polish of the earlier games that make them so much better to me. Comparing Gen 8 and 9 to games such as Platinum or Black and White 2, there's so much that the newer games lack. There's way less optional and/or postgame content, forced mechanics like affection and the mandatory exp share make steamrolling through the game far too easy, and especially recently the games have not been getting enough development time thier scope needs. I won't deny i've had fun, even a blast, enjoying what the latest games have to offer. At the end of the day though, these core pillars of gameplay seem to have been weaker in recent installments, and that's whats stopping me from really loving these games like I used to.

    Platinum and BW2 are probably among the best main games, but they have something in common: they were "third version" releases, so they had the chance to improve on some of their vanilla counterparts' issues.

    Diamond/Pearl had a Pokémon variety almost as lackluster as Kanto's, even missing even some of Gen 4 Pokémon, and OMG the speed in those games. B/W added more new Pokémon than any other gen, but the soft-reboot idea with only new Pokémon wasn't so well received. Taking the story so seriously for a Pokémon game also seemed to have mixed results.

    The thing with DLC versus third versions is that DLC might add a chunk of post-game content, but won't do anything to improve what could have been better in the main game.

    I agree that it's just dumb and there's no justification for forcing Exp. Share, Affection bonusses, and now even the Switch mode (well, Affection is actually not forced except for BDSP, I ignored Picnic in Scarlet and that did the trick for me). But things like these contribute to the feeling that older games were harder... they weren't more challenging because trainers had better teams and smarter movesets and strategies for the most part, but because in those games it was easy to be underlevelled without training against wild Pokémon from time to time, and whenever you caught a new Pokémon for your team, you usually had to train it the old fashion way. Now you can level up Pokémon without even looking at them.

    So in the modern games it's basically the opposite, you actually have to try not to overlevel, which will inevitably happen unless you rush through the game ignoring half the stuff, or use more than one team. For a player who overlevels by just normally playing the game, and on top of that get anime bonusses and so many one-sided advantages these games offer, yeah, the games basically become "press A to win"
     

    Duck

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    The thing with DLC versus third versions is that DLC might add a chunk of post-game content, but won't do anything to improve what could have been better in the main game.

    I'm not entirely sure how the DLC system mechanically works on the Switch, so take this with a grain of salt, but changing that kind of thing should be possible.

    While messing with story would be a bit harder (but still not impossible), the usual problems people usually complain about (Pokemon distributions, balance issues, difficulty levels, etc.) boil down to basically "this table (an encounter table, team table, moveset tables, etc.) we have doesn't have great data".

    Overriding a table / hijacking a function that reads from a table to do something else, is, if not easy, at least technically feasible with the right architectural decisions. It's basically what changing dialogs / options in the train station was doing, but at a bigger scale.

    So I think the main problem has less to do with the format and more to do with the state of the market. Adding post-game / side-game content is something easy to market and doesn't come with an implicit "Hey, we fucked up before".

    EDIT:

    Regarding the overlevelling thing, I think it's important to keep in mind that the Exp Share being forced or not is fundamentally not the problem here.

    Pokemon is already fairly unique in the RPG realm (not counting its clones) for having an experience system, a party system and a singles campaign. The norm is "all your party fights together" or "up to 3 or so members of your party fight at a time".

    This means that Pokemon is, in many ways, a game that's built to favor grinding - that was OK back in the late 90s / early 00s because that's how you gave the impression that games were longer than they really are, that's part of the reason why older videogames were generally harder.

    As the franchise got older, we started to get actual content and grinding's definitional repetitiveness and time-wasting became less of a pro and more of a con. Gen I Any% Glitchless WR is about 2h, Gen III is about 2h 30, Gen V is about 3h, Gen VII is about 5h and Gen IX is about 5h 30 (with a Turbo glitch, the one run without Turbo is in the 6h 30).

    It could be argued that the problem is that they aren't really designing the level curve with the Exp Share in mind but I think the problem runs deeper. I think a lot of people are really underestimating how bad kids are at Pokemon (or full form videogames in general).

    I know I'll sound like an old man yelling at the whippersnappers but like, I've seen 6 year old (even 10 year old) relatives that are just so used to phone gameplay - and perhaps just other genres that are fundamentally different - that don't have the same instincts as I (and I presume many of you) had when we were their age. They couldn't figure out the very first level in SMM2 story mode by themselves, despite having the simplest control set I can think of in games in general.

    Cover that with the fact that a lot of this early audience aren't exactly voracious readers and is fairly easy for you to end up with a game where they just kinda are awful at the game. Your average kid won't switch, won't necessarily know most of the type chart, won't consider abilities, won't consider what makes a move decent or not (and might either ignore TMs altogether or just waste them in the worst possible Pokemon), won't consider whether the team has a glaring weakness to any one thing and so on.

    They likely won't also know stuff like "Hey, this Pokemon sucks but if you evolve it it becomes great" or "You need to talk to this NPC and complete this quest to get the item to evolve X" or even just "Find a friend to touch trade and evolve this."

    There's a chasm the size of Texas between "5 year old that can barely read" and "late 20s that plays competitively" that is just very hard to bridge with a single design. Pokemon effectively has two very different user bases and it has to favor one of them.

    New Game + or Difficulty levels could help, I suppose, but a lot of Pokemon decisions start making a lot more sense when you think of them in terms of the player being "Little Timmy that either can't or won't read the instructions" instead of someone in their teens / a grown adult.
     
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    Sweet Serenity

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  • In terms of what Gen 8 DLC brought to the table, here were a few neat ideas (many of which did get fully realized in Gen 9), but overall they felt a little shallow. I view the DLC as experiments by Game Freak, and while I personally think it's a fantastic way to tide the fans over without interfering with other projects in terms of what they actually provide (especially compared to games like HGSS where i've spent months in the side content alone) it was fairly minimal.

    As for the difficulty, I understand that Pokemon has never truely been a "hard" game. At the end of the day, these games are for kids. (Heck, I remember struggling with X/Y a bit when I was little despite being some of the easiest games for me now). I'm more just upset it doesn't work like in USUM anymore, that's all. At the very least the level scaling on trainers has gotten a bit better over time.

    The one thing I will 100% agree on is the removal of HMs. I've been replaying through Platinum recently and they are just as if not more cumbersome of a system than I remember. Areas like Mt. Coronet and Victory Road require so many of them it hinders what is otherwise my favorite reigon to explore and find secrets in. I have my own complaints about the Ride Pokemon of Gen 9, but they still are leagues better than what field navigation was back then.

    Lastly, I want to apologize if i've seemed a bit aggressive toward you in my thread replies Sweet Serenity. Joining this site has finally let me gush out my bottled-up opinons on this franchise and looking back at some of my posts I feel like I was ranting about how your opinon was wrong. I don't want to be like how I was back in early Gen 8, where most discussions ended up with me getting unreasonably upset. There are some Poketubers I hate like Verlisify who start beef like that all the time, and I want to be better than that. I have no idea if you took my posts that way, but I thought i'd mention it regardless.

    I don't think they were shallow. Isle of Armor might didn't have the best story, but it did bring more content, an entire island to explore, more Pokémon roaming around, Gigantamax forms and moves, and a strong minor legendary in Urshifu. Crown Tundra had the best story, as well as another area to explore, powerful legendary Pokémon, the Dynamax Adventure feature that allowed you to catch every other legendary Pokémon in the game, a great major legendary Pokémon in Calyrex, and of course, more Pokémon to catch. My only complaint about both was that they shouldn't have been DLC, but rather content that should have existed with the base games.

    Personally, whenever I play Pokémon, I play not for the challenge or difficulty, but rather the adventure, where I can catch and train my favorite Pokémon, as well as explore the region. The primary challenge that I get from Pokémon is playing competitively after beating the game, as battling against human players with strong Pokémon is much tougher than battling NPCs. However, Pokémon Black 2 and White 2 did include "Challenge Mode," which made the game more difficult than normal. Perhaps future Pokémon games can add a similar feature to the games to make them more challenging for players.

    HMs were the worst gameplay mechanic in Pokémon, as they are extremely difficult to forget and wasted slots for other potentially useful moves. One of the main reasons I consider Pokémon Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum to be my least favorite games is because of the constant HMs you required to progress through the games, and fog was by far the worst thing ever conceived in Pokémon. Not only did it completely obscure your vision, but it also severely lowered accuracy in battle, which was horrible. At least the move Defog evolved to be a competitive staple. I love the legendary ride Pokémon in generation IX and the story involving it. I love how you can jump, climb, glide, and surf on it, making Pokémon feel almost like a platform game, which is cool.

    No need to apologize to me, as I didn't sense any aggression, but rather disagreement. I have absolutely no problem with people disagreeing with my posts. However, I should note that if I spot a post that I disagree with, I will definitely respond to it, usually in a lengthy and detailed way to fully explain my reasoning. As well, if you see a post of mine that you disagree with, by all means, feel free to respond and post your own opinion. Such discussion is fun for me. As expected on an internet forum, different people are going to share different opinions on various topics, and disagreement and debate are always welcome as long as such discourse remains respectful and within the rules. I didn't sense any disrespect and/or rule defiance from your posts. Nevertheless, I do appreciate that you did apologize for what you thought was offensive to me, which shows that you're a sweetheart.

    A little off-topic, but since you brought it up, also, I don't think Verlisify gets enough credit for his content. Too many people only focus on his content that involves calling people out for cheating and/or other questionable behavior, but overlook the majority of his other content such as his guides, reviews, competitive battles, and so on. I definitely don't agree with everything he says, but I do understand that he's the type of YouTuber that gives his opinion in a stern, no nonsense type of way and won't change his opinion unless proven wrong with hard evidence, not just personal attacks against him. Overall, I honestly think that he means well, but he just isn't nice or polite about it. Verlisify is one of those YouTubers that you have to watch with a tough skin to enjoy. That's how I view him, at least, but I can't speak for everybody else, as I do realize he still has a ton of haters. I've been watching YouTubers like him, Tama Hero or TamashiiHiroka (my favorite Pokémon YouTuber that I grew up watching), and TheJWittz, for years.
     
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    Personally, whenever I play Pokémon, I play not for the challenge or difficulty, but rather the adventure, where I can catch and train my favorite Pokémon, as well as explore the region. The primary challenge that I get from Pokémon is playing competitively after beating the game, as battling against human players with strong Pokémon is much tougher than battling NPCs. However, Pokémon Black 2 and White 2 did include "Challenge Mode," which made the game more difficult than normal. Perhaps future Pokémon games can add a similar feature to the games to make them more challenging for players.

    Difficulty is what makes a Pokemon game memorable to me. I've never been into the competitive scene all that much (although its mostly due to lack of time dedication rather than lack of interest), so the primary appeal of the games are the main story (and side content but I can talk about that another time). Battles that have always caused me trouble like Elesa or Fantina are some of the most satisfying to overcome, especially when I use unique or interesting strategies to win. This is why Black and White 2's Challenge Mode is the feature I want to return most, because enemy trainers are way better in level, team composition, and even have held items by the end of the game. (Seriously, why do no in-game trainers ever use held items besides these games and BDSP?) Highly reccomend checking Challenge Mode out.

    That being said, I do not think we need Dark Souls level difficulty in Pokemon like some Rom hacks have. Recently helping my little sister play through her first Pokemon games have reminded me of how hard it is for a newcomer to overcome challenges that would seem trivial to a veteran. It's one of the issues I can understand Game Freak struggling with, considering they need to accomodate players with so many different skill levels.
     

    Sweet Serenity

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  • Difficulty is what makes a Pokemon game memorable to me. I've never been into the competitive scene all that much (although its mostly due to lack of time dedication rather than lack of interest), so the primary appeal of the games are the main story (and side content but I can talk about that another time). Battles that have always caused me trouble like Elesa or Fantina are some of the most satisfying to overcome, especially when I use unique or interesting strategies to win. This is why Black and White 2's Challenge Mode is the feature I want to return most, because enemy trainers are way better in level, team composition, and even have held items by the end of the game. (Seriously, why do no in-game trainers ever use held items besides these games and BDSP?) Highly reccomend checking Challenge Mode out.

    That being said, I do not think we need Dark Souls level difficulty in Pokemon like some Rom hacks have. Recently helping my little sister play through her first Pokemon games have reminded me of how hard it is for a newcomer to overcome challenges that would seem trivial to a veteran. It's one of the issues I can understand Game Freak struggling with, considering they need to accomodate players with so many different skill levels.

    I agree. Challenge Mode was one of the best things that Pokémon introduced, but too bad it was a one-and-done feature. A Pokémon game with difficulty levels would be a great experience. As for why certain characters don't have held items, well sometimes, you do get the occasional trainer with Pokémon holding berries early on. Sometimes, trainer classes that specialize in a certain type of Pokémon, such as Black Belts for example, would actually have their Fighting-type Pokémon hold Black Belts. However, NPCs just mostly seem to be fine with giving up their turn to use things like Potions and Full Restores in the middle of a battle. I would say that NPCs mostly don't have held items because many of the good ones aren't obtainable until much later in the game. That's why you won't see a ton of players early on just tanking your hits with items like Focus Sashes and dealing massive damage with their Life Orbs or Choice Bands. However, I do agree that more trainers need held items to make things more challenging.
     
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    I'm not entirely sure how the DLC system mechanically works on the Switch, so take this with a grain of salt, but changing that kind of thing should be possible.

    It should be possible, but certain modifications would be more into patch/update/rebalance territory rather than "DLC". For instance, imagine they pick BDSP and improve the Pokémon variety by making more Pokémon from Platinum available in the wild, it's not really added content.

    Which, honestly, I'd prefer. Imo fixing/polishing the main game should take priority over coming up with a new DLC area with cool new stuff and Legendaries galore. I rather not have to wait until the post-game/DLC to start enjoying a better game.
     
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    For me personally, I doubt it. Very much. I am not a "genwunner", but I will say I stopped enjoying Pokémon after gen 5. I miss the sprites, I miss the simplicity. I loved Legends: Arceus though.
     
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