• Our software update is now concluded. You will need to reset your password to log in. In order to do this, you will have to click "Log in" in the top right corner and then "Forgot your password?".
  • Welcome to PokéCommunity! Register now and join one of the best fan communities on the 'net to talk Pokémon and more! We are not affiliated with The Pokémon Company or Nintendo.

We've done this too many times now

Somewhere_

i don't know where
4,494
Posts
8
Years

The source comes from MSNBC and Mother Jones... two very left-biased sources. Considering the stat I gave earlier, I dont see why guns used in mass shootings would be legal when guns used in most other crimes aren't. However, I'll read over the study.


I think a very important factor to take into account is that all guns start out legal. Guns don't come into existence as illegal items. Better laws and enforcement around the buying and selling of guns (especially at gun shows), like requiring evaluations and actual training, would definitely make things better. Both because you're ensuring guns only pass hands legally but also increasing the bar of entry and amount of effort required to get one

There isn't statistically significant evidence that guns used in crimes are purchased at gun shows. It's really the resellers that are the issue. But yea, for sure there should definitely be greater enforce and/or laws surrounding reselling weapons. Even well-intentioned persons can resell their gun to the wrong person, or resell their gun to someone that lends that gun to a bad guy. Greater oversight is definitely needed.

Regarding evaluations and training... those should probably be strengthen. Psychological evaluations seem like a good idea. Not just for mental disorders, but also emotional trauma. The shooter a few days ago recently lost his mother and I'm sure he wasnt in a great state of mind. I also think something included in gun training (in addition to basic skills and safety) is for parents. I significant portion of gun deaths in the US are due to accidents and suicides. There are too many stories of young children accidentally discharging their parent's firearms and either getting horribly injured or dying. Parents need to keep their guns locked up safely. I understand that sometimes you need your gun for self-defense, but safe doesnt necessarily mean difficult to access (for the parent).
 

Nah

15,941
Posts
10
Years
  • Age 31
  • Seen today
....I'm just gonna go and post some links since nobody seems to want to go and ask Our Lord & Savior Google for info on gun crime, I don't really need this thread to devolve into some back and forth of "gimme the evidence" "nuh-uh you do it" or whatever the right words are to describe the situation:

https://everytownresearch.org/gun-violence-by-the-numbers/
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-12

I don't know if this is the sort of stuff Esper (or anyone) was talking about, I don't know if it's all that good (I didn't take that much of a look at these, and I just tried to stay away from news article links), for a few of them you may need to dig into what citations they may have, but oh well, I tried.
 

Star-Lord

withdrawl .
715
Posts
15
Years
I fundamentally find the constitutional right to have a gun very odd. That's probably because it's not included as a right in my country's constitution.

I'm not going to waste my time debating gun control because from experience pro-gun advocates are completely unwilling to compromise in their discussion and it just turns into this exhausting mess of two rams constantly batting their heads over and over.

Very saddening to see children taken away from such senseless violence. May they rest in peace.
 
371
Posts
6
Years
  • Age 43
  • Seen Nov 19, 2022
....I'm just gonna go and post some links since nobody seems to want to go and ask Our Lord & Savior Google for info on gun crime, I don't really need this thread to devolve into some back and forth of "gimme the evidence" "nuh-uh you do it" or whatever the right words are to describe the situation:

https://everytownresearch.org/gun-violence-by-the-numbers/
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-12

I don't know if this is the sort of stuff Esper (or anyone) was talking about, I don't know if it's all that good (I didn't take that much of a look at these, and I just tried to stay away from news article links), for a few of them you may need to dig into what citations they may have, but oh well, I tried.

Everytown is definitely one of the gun control groups that lies to people.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/bearin...gun-safety-caught-lying-school-shootings/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...lar-desire-for-gun-control-is-backfiring/amp/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...here-been-74-school-shootings-sandy-hook-clo/

https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/269342/lying-about-gun-violence-statistics-daniel-greenfield
 

string555

Banned
1,373
Posts
6
Years
A typical public school doesn't have a lot of security to begin with.

Yes, and more security equals less risk.

Giving one high quality security will cost a high fee which the school would partially put on the parents of the students.

Which is why I suggested that maybe some pentesters could donate their time to finding flaws in a school's security. I do agree that every school system has their budget, but maybe a charity could be setup to get donations from everyone in the community to improve a school's security, not just the parents of the students. It would also be wise to explain the security features being added to the school and why, so people would know what they are working towards. Maybe that's just being idealist again, but hey, I don't really see this working against the lives of students, but for them, and everyone knows the old saying "Children are the future", so why not give for that future?

The students would also lose a lot of their freedom for the sake of security which would make school life more stressful.

Sure, if they throw in metal detectors and barb wire over everything along with tons of police presence, that would only send the message: "The world is a scary, evil, and dark place, I don't want to live in it anymore". As long as the security measures are clear, however, it seems like some very imaginative engineers could come up with some ways to implement them without sending that message to students. Maybe this would go too far, but possibly even hold a contest amongst the students to design these features for the school. It could just be me, but if I went to a school that was designed like a castle, that would be pretty awesome. :D

Of course, these are just some thoughts thrown out there.
 
90
Posts
9
Years
  • Age 31
  • Seen Jun 23, 2018
Wanting to buy a gun is not and should not be considered a crime, because this doesn't harm anyone in and of itself. There are a lot more people who own a gun that don't attack or murder others with it than those who do.
 
25,507
Posts
11
Years
Wanting to buy a gun is not and should not be considered a crime, because this doesn't harm anyone in and of itself. There are a lot more people who own a gun that don't attack or murder others with it than those who do.

The idea of gun control isn't to prevent anyone from owning a gun, it's to make it harder to own one without good reason to.
 
371
Posts
6
Years
  • Age 43
  • Seen Nov 19, 2022
Wanting to buy a gun is not and should not be considered a crime, because this doesn't harm anyone in and of itself. There are a lot more people who own a gun that don't attack or murder others with it than those who do.
Studies have shown that legal CC gun owners are more law-abiding than the police.

The idea of gun control isn't to prevent anyone from owning a gun, it's to make it harder to own one without good reason to.
1. I don't need a good reason to own a gun. It is a Constitutional Right in the USA.
2. Gun Control is entirely about preventing gun ownership. There are any number of quotes by gun control advocates that seek a complete ban.

Well here is an article about a governor saying to blame the shooting on video games, movies and music instead of guns. http://www.newsweek.com/parkland-sc...ent-gun-control-video-games-movies-nra-809681

Well I say this governor is an idiot. Video games, movies, and music did not cause the deaths in the shooting, a gun did.
Well that is a stupid claim.

Everyone should read this. It is still relevant.
http://monsterhunternation.com/2015/06/23/an-opinion-on-gun-control-repost/
 
25,507
Posts
11
Years
1. I don't need a good reason to own a gun. It is a Constitutional Right in the USA.
2. Gun Control is entirely about preventing gun ownership. There are any number of quotes by gun control advocates that seek a complete ban.

1. The second amendment is in need of a severe update. It might be that way now perhaps, but it shouldn't be. Even then whether you're entirely correct there is debatable.
2. That wouldn't be gun control, that would be a gun ban. They are not the same thing and are frequently confused even by those who support one or the other.
 
371
Posts
6
Years
  • Age 43
  • Seen Nov 19, 2022
1. The second amendment is in need of a severe update. It might be that way now perhaps, but it shouldn't be. Even then whether you're entirely correct there is debatable.
2. That wouldn't be gun control, that would be a gun ban. They are not the same thing and are frequently confused even by those who support one or the other.

1. The 2nd is just fine the way it is.
2. The gun control advocates label it gun control or gun safety and then add in so many restrictions that results in a defacto ban. They aren't "confused" at all. It is by intent. "Complete this very complex 30-step program and after a review that may take X months to years to complete, we'll let you know if you are approved to look into buying a gun at the one approved gun seller in this state. That store closed? Guess you'll have to wait until a different gun store meets our extremely rigorous security demands."
 
Last edited:

ShinyUmbreon189

VLONE coming soon
1,461
Posts
12
Years
Hate to say it again, but guns aren't the problem. It's ludicous to even think so. So lets ban cars to stop drunk drivers, lets ban spoons and forks to stop obesity. This is literally how stupid it sounds to "ban guns" to stop gun violence. And the next time I hear some liberal say a socialist country bullshit working.... Of course, because liberals don't like guns and gun owners are terrorists!! Yet what I find hilarious, is most liberal politicians own firearms, pretty hypocritical if you ask me. There's even a case where a D politician shot an intruder in self defense, but I'd have to find the article since it was YEARS ago.
Don't like the gun laws here, move to a socialist country where only criminals have them, problem solved. Evil people is the problem, and evil is inevitable. It's not exactly rocket science.

Also, something is telling me that these shooters are trying to set an example because "Trumps in office" and the liberals are pushing their agenda for gun control.
 
Last edited:
25,507
Posts
11
Years
Hate to say it again, but guns aren't the problem. It's ludicous to even think so. So lets ban cars to stop drunk drivers, lets ban spoons and forks to stop obesity. This is literally how stupid it sounds to "ban guns" to stop gun violence. And the next time I hear some liberal say a socialist country bullshit working.... Of course, because liberals don't like guns and gun owners are terrorists!! Yet what I find hilarious, is most liberal politicians own firearms, pretty hypocritical if you ask me. There's even a case where a D politician shot an intruder in self defense, but I'd have to find the article since it was YEARS ago.
Don't like the gun laws here, move to a socialist country where only criminals have them, problem solved. Evil people is the problem, and evil is inevitable. It's not exactly rocket science.

Hi I live in a Capitalist country with better gone control than the US and we don't have the frequent mass shootings you do. Pretty sure we've never had a school shooting. Certainly not in a very, very long time.

Banning guns is stupid since there's legitimate reasons to own one, but to look at the gun violence problems in the US and still believe that you don't need tighter restrictions on firearms is just wilful ignorance.

Next, most liberal politicians have firearms huh? Would sure love to see your source for that claim.

"If you don't like it, move" basically goes against Democracy. People have every right to try and change the US. If you don't like that people want better gun control, move to an anarchy where they can't impose it.


Also, something is telling me that these shooters are trying to set an example because "Trumps in office" and the liberals are pushing their agenda for gun control.

I've never heard of a conspiracy theory that was actually right and I highly doubt this will be the first. You had a mass shooting problem long before Trump and the push for greater gun control is in response to all the shootings. If you didn't have a gun violence problem, nobody would be complaining about guns being too readily available.
 

ShinyUmbreon189

VLONE coming soon
1,461
Posts
12
Years
Hi I live in a Capitalist country with better gone control than the US and we don't have the frequent mass shootings you do. Pretty sure we've never had a school shooting. Certainly not in a very, very long time.

Banning guns is stupid since there's legitimate reasons to own one, but to look at the gun violence problems in the US and still believe that you don't need tighter restrictions on firearms is just wilful ignorance.

Next, most liberal politicians have firearms huh? Would sure love to see your source for that claim.

"If you don't like it, move" basically goes against Democracy. People have every right to try and change the US. If you don't like that people want better gun control, move to an anarchy where they can't impose it.

Again, guns aren't the problem. Do stricter background checks, psychological testings, mandatory classes, etc do what you feel would drop the gun violence rate.. In reality, it wouldn't do much. Still leaves criminals with guns. Also, most mental illnesses when it comes to guns are either misdiagnosed or non diagnosed. It's not as easy as it sounds to make it harder for these people to get a gun.
The law abiding responsible gun owners FAR outweight the irresponsible illegal gun owners. Again, it's like saying lets ban cars to stop drunk drivers. Sure, there's a lot of drunk drivers, but the sober drivers FAR outweight the intoxicated. Or high, however you wanna put it.
Then of course theres the underground gun shops, which are extremely lowkey as is and they'll sell to anybody. But that's like taking down the black market, it's not so easy.
Wouldn't surprise me if politicians owned firearms.. Would it suprise you?


I've never heard of a conspiracy theory that was actually right and I highly doubt this will be the first. You had a mass shooting problem long before Trump and the push for greater gun control is in response to all the shootings. If you didn't have a gun violence problem, nobody would be complaining about guns being too readily available.

So a liberal agenda to push gun control is nonexistent right? Also, what proof of 18 school schootings that ended in massacres, where is it? Because I got proof there's only 2.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...hool-shootings-so-far-in-2018/article/2649183

And. I'm just gonna leave this here:

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

56 million defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control:

You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Also, with the liberal system these newer generations don't get taught the "truth".

See the pattern?

And I'm no conspiracy theorist, you can call it "woke" ;) I don't follow, most are sucked into politics and don't even know what the fucks going on. They believe anything and everything they see or hear, which is far from the truth.
 
Last edited:

ShinyUmbreon189

VLONE coming soon
1,461
Posts
12
Years
You know, I've never seen someone de-contextualize genocides to try and defend their stance on gun control. PC never ceases to amaze.

Can't question the facts. Let me guess. Typical liberal pinned down and only way to retreat is by trying to remove past history because they have no other way to debate the discussion at hand? Nice tactic.
 
Last edited:

Star-Lord

withdrawl .
715
Posts
15
Years
It's not really an inability to question the facts as much as I'm sort of bemused with your insanely bizarre argument that I've never heard of until now. If I was actually engaged in this discussion I'd say your argument is disrespectful because it very crudely removes any sociopolitical nuance involved with the events you've described, and then very poorly compares them to a completely separate observed epidemic vis a vis gun violence that is happening in the United States.

If I hated myself more I would take the time to break down and explain exactly why each of those situations are completely inappropriate for the debate at hand (If the Ukranians had guns they wouldn't of been starved out during Holodomor :rolleyes2:) but I'd rather eat glass. Have a great night.
 
Last edited:

Kai

Wayfarer
336
Posts
6
Years
Sure, if they throw in metal detectors and barb wire over everything along with tons of police presence, that would only send the message: "The world is a scary, evil, and dark place, I don't want to live in it anymore". As long as the security measures are clear, however, it seems like some very imaginative engineers could come up with some ways to implement them without sending that message to students. Maybe this would go too far, but possibly even hold a contest amongst the students to design these features for the school. It could just be me, but if I went to a school that was designed like a castle, that would be pretty awesome. :D

Of course, these are just some thoughts thrown out there.

Having been to a high school that was basically made to keep students in and intruders out with security check points, mandatory hall pass requirements during class or lunch, electronic door handles, and other methods I can tell you with certainty that it's a lot nicer on paper than it is in reality. The place sort of felt like a prison. There's a right way to get this done but finding it will be half the battle.

[Arsenic] That doesn't disprove my statement. In fact it partially backs it up.
 

Vragon

Guest
0
Posts
And before it's though I'm here trying to prove your wrong, I'm not. I saw incorrect information and sought to inform so that you might be more versed in the subject of which you are also discussing. I hope if I made mistakes in my info above (or below) that someone would do the same for me.

This is what Arsenic had at the end. Just wanted to point that out. Also, regarding your right way in getting things done, I'm not so certain there is a concrete solution to this problem in schools. Plus it's not like String555 disagreed with you. In fact, some of his ideas I do find pretty interesting and possibilities to pursue. Besides, what are you even trying to say? I mean, I get your message of not trying to make it feel like a prison, but String is talking specifically in that regard.

So what exactly do you mean Kai Ai. Like what are some of you thoughts on ways we can improve school security without it gaining the effects of a prison enviroment?
 

string555

Banned
1,373
Posts
6
Years
Having been to a high school that was basically made to keep students in and intruders out with security check points, mandatory hall pass requirements during class or lunch, electronic door handles, and other methods I can tell you with certainty that it's a lot nicer on paper than it is in reality. The place sort of felt like a prison. There's a right way to get this done but finding it will be half the battle.

Maybe, but I am just trying to find some solution to the problem, even if it's a strange one, because it seems clear that the current setup for things isn't working out so well.

Another thing I thought of before might not work out either due to lack of available therapists/psychologists, but maybe it could help if possible, is to make all students attend a monthly 30 minute therapy session with some on-site counselor/therapist. One therapist could probably cover and entire school of students in a month with just a few sessions a day. If something came up that made it clear that the student needed more than that, then something could be arranged.

The reason I suggest this is that the school shooter clearly had mental health issues, if he had gone through some kind of therapy early on in childhood (Elementary School), some signs of his issues may have been caught long before they escalated into something worse. Of course, nobody can say for sure if this kind of system would really have prevented the shooting this time, but I don't see how it would hurt.

Now, yes, that would require the school to actually pay for the staff on hand to do this mandatory therapy. One solution to this is that psychology students have to do some kind of internship at various places in order to get their degree, so maybe they could do some or all of it at a school like this, which would give them a lot of good experience. Of course there is an obvious problem there, can someone with no real long-term credentials in the field of psychology be trusted to be dealing with all those kids? We've seen how bad that can go, so there are issues there.

So, again, just trying to explore various solutions to the problem, especially with emphasis on prevention, because we really don't want this #$^$# to keep happening, right?
 
Back
Top