DP Ash vs XY Ash Who's The Better Trainer

Meyneth said:

So? Tobias had a far stronger Darkrai and Latios, and DP Ash took out BOTH of them, with zero setup. XY Ash had all the setup in past episodes he needed - and more besides - to take out Mega Charizard X and he didn't. He lost a battle he should have won spectacularly.

That's a completely inaccurate represent of DP Ash, though. He didn't use his region team exclusively; he used a mash-up of previous teams for strategy's sake, not because his regional team was weaker. If DP Ash had used his regional team against Alain I doubt he would have lost sooner, because his DP team had far better type syngery and, as I said, evolution counts for nothing. Hard to call.

The topic is about which is a better trainer, not which had a better regional team. That's only a fragment of it...and honestly, even comparing his teams I'd still say DP Ash was better, because he doesn't use three of the same type.

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I'm saying if DP Ash only used his region team he would have lost a lot sooner. And MC-X has beaten a lot stronger pokemon than those legends that Tobias used. And XY Ash can beat those same legendarys that Tobias used.

SH60 said:

I'm saying if DP Ash only used his region team he would have lost a lot sooner. And MC-X has beaten a lot stronger pokemon than those legends that Tobias used. And XY Ash can beat those same legendarys that Tobias used.

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Ash's DP team is a lot more varied than his XY team is, so I doubt he would have lost a lot sooner - his Infernape had far more character development than his Greninja did, and might even have beaten that Charizard, because Ash excels at same-type matchups. XY Ash also lacked the counter shield strategy which, despite being BS, worked for DP Ash. He would have used far more creative techniques against Alain and probably won, because DP Ash didn't lose against his rivals where it REALLY counted - in the league competition. XY Ash's creativity amounted to Ash-Greninja and little else.

As for XY's Ash's team being able to beat the same Legendaries...doubtful, although it would have depended on the order he used them. Ash's Sceptile is his Hoenn powerhouse and easily on the same level as his Greninja, which is the only Pokemon on his XY team that can compete with it in terms of power and character development. Darkrai would have demolished his XY team in much the same way it did his DP team until it came to Greninja, who would have lost to Latios after that, and Pikachu wouldn't have tied with Latios in all probability because it only did thanks to Volt Tackle...which it no longer has.

...and the point is that DP Ash would not only use his region team. He'd have the foresight and flexibility to rotate his team for Alain, so his opponent couldn't predict what he was going to do, and so he would have the best chance of taking out Charizard.

Meyneth said:

Ash's DP team is a lot more varied than his XY team is, so I doubt he would have lost a lot sooner - his Infernape had far more character development than his Greninja did, and might even have beaten that Charizard, because Ash excels at same-type matchups. XY Ash also lacked the counter shield strategy which, despite being BS, worked for DP Ash. He would have used far more creative techniques against Alain and probably won, because DP Ash didn't lose against his rivals where it REALLY counted - in the league competition. XY Ash's creativity amounted to Ash-Greninja and little else.

As for XY's Ash's team being able to beat the same Legendaries...doubtful, although it would have depended on the order he used them. Ash's Sceptile is his Hoenn powerhouse and easily on the same level as his Greninja, which is the only Pokemon on his XY team that can compete with it in terms of power and character development. Darkrai would have demolished his XY team in much the same way it did his DP team until it came to Greninja, who would have lost to Latios after that, and Pikachu wouldn't have tied with Latios in all probability because it only did thanks to Volt Tackle...which it no longer has.

...and the point is that DP Ash would not only use his region team. He'd have the foresight and flexibility to rotate his team for Alain, so his opponent couldn't predict what he was going to do, and so he would have the best chance of taking out Charizard.

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Did you watch XY/XYZ? Because you keep downplaying XY Ash feats, and DP Ash fucked up a lot more than XY Ash.

SH60 said:

Did you watch XY/XYZ? Because you keep downplaying XY Ash feats, and DP Ash fucked up a lot more than XY Ash.

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Obviously I watched XYZ, which I'm fairly sure you knew without asking, otherwise I wouldn't be posting in here. Honestly, if you can't think of anything else to say in response to my points, don't even bother replying to me ._.

DP Ash messed up a lot. But part of character growth is messing up. XY Ash is very much like BW Ash in that he has very little character development or growth as a trainer - he's very much a "back to basics" individual whose Pokemon get stronger whilst he remains the same blundering idiot he's always been. Ash has always been like that, but there are degrees, and those degrees are usually measured by how strong his Pokemon are...which, again, is not really a reflection of his skill as a trainer, but a reflection of the individual character arc each Pokemon undergoes. Quite often their struggles are completely separate from Ash.

DP Ash benefited from his experiences with Dawn in a way he never did with Serena: he took elements from her battle style, developed his own, and his Pokemon received a lot more developed on the whole than his XY Pokemon did. His ability to think on his feet, create flexible and unique battle strategies, and draw on his past experiences, made him a much more engaging character and a much better trainer, in my opinion. XY Ash relied too heavily upon Greninja towards the end of the anime - in the beginning that was not the case; Froakie was just another member of his team - and he never really grew as a character. He has set Pokemon, he uses them in battle, that's it. There was no real strategy or trial-and-error the way there was in DP.

I'm not arguing that XY Ash accomplished a lot. But he didn't accomplish as much as he should have - I have yet to see anyone say his loss to Alain was justified, because strong rival characters like Alain have popped up constantly in the anime in the past and Ash has ALWAYS beaten them in the league competition - and he just wasn't as well-written as DP Ash was. The ability to learn from your mistakes, develop your own battle style, and draw on your past experiences, is what separates DP Ash from XY Ash.

DawnLover said:

In what ways?

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Lets use DP Ash and Paul's battle in the league when Ash told Pikachu to use VT on Electivire and got Motor Drive because of it and made Infernape battle with is harder than it needed to be.

SH60 said:

Lets use DP Ash and Paul's battle in the league when Ash told Pikachu to use VT on Electivire and got Motor Drive because of it and made Infernape battle with is harder than it needed to be.

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Let's also include the rest of the context here by saying Ash used Volt Tackle to lure Electivire in, only his plan didn't work as well as intended since Pikachu ended up trapped.

Frozocrone said:

Let's also include the rest of the context here by saying Ash used Volt Tackle to lure Electivire in, only his plan didn't work as well as intended since Pikachu ended up trapped.

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That was still a dumb move on Ash's part.

SH60 said:

If DP Ash needed old pokemon to get that far in the league, then his region team was kinda weak like his Johto team. And XY Ash can use his old team, but he didn't need to.

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His Johto team wasn't weak to begin with. XY Ash didn't used his old Pokemon in the Kalos League, but some of his Kalos Pokemon either tied or fainted at the same time that the rivals Pokemon did, so his Kalos team did seem kinda weak. DP Ash did used an few of his old Pokemon, but it still didn't stop him from losing in the Sinnoh League. Besides the fact evolve Pokemon are not any better then the ones in their base form, and the anime has proved that a lot of times or atleast the OS has.

Piii said:

His Johto team wasn't weak to begin with. XY Ash didn't used his old Pokemon in the Kalos League, but some of his Kalos Pokemon either tied or fainted at the same time that the rivals Pokemon did, so his Kalos team did seem kinda weak. DP Ash did used an few of his old Pokemon, but it still didn't stop him from losing in the Sinnoh League. Besides the fact evolve Pokemon are not any better then the ones in their base form, and the anime has proved that a lot of times or atleast the OS has.

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Like in DP Ash vs Paul in the league where DP Ash lost 3 pokemon to 1 of Paul's pokemon

Objectively, DP Ash had the lowest non-TR win percent of any generation. But given we're having this discussion, that says FAR more about his opponents than him.

Sinnoh was Ash's toughest region. He had a rival that consistently beat him by just being better at Pok?mon than he was, and multiple recurring characters that proved they could likely beat him (Conway and Nando to name a couple). Brokenzard, his standard legendary counter, was benched the entire series. He didn't have a broken as hell unique mechanic working for him. Almost every gym leader was a full 3v3 rather than a cheesy plot 1v1. He faced multiple Elite Four members.

That said, he persevered. After consistently losing to Paul, he came back and beat him in the end - with the same team as the most embarrassing defeat. His team was all around impressive, Infernape actually had a higher 1v1 win rate (83%) than Greninja (80%). Counter Shields were a really unique idea that Ash and Dawn came up with as opposed to some bs plot device. Sure he lost to E4 members, but he kept it close (Flint was Infernape's only individual loss after evolving). Oh, and the Tobias battle existed.

So yeah. DP Ash was a fricking badass.

SH60 said:

Like in DP Ash vs Paul in the league where DP Ash lost 3 pokemon to 1 of Paul's pokemon

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DP Ash might have lost 3 or 4 Pokemon to Paul's Team, but he still had flaws about his character throughout the Sinnoh region. He did defeated Paul's team with his Sinnoh team, but Infernape had to rely on his blaze ability to defeat Paul's last remaining Pokemon.

XY Ash was much better at his Pokemon skills and training, and because of that he made it to the top runner up in the Kalos League. DP Ash is not a badass and his team wasn't all that impressive, plus the counter shields was nothing more but a poorly done plot device and i'm glad they got rid of it.

Decidueye said:

Objectively, DP Ash had the lowest non-TR win percent of any generation. But given we're having this discussion, that says FAR more about his opponents than him.

Sinnoh was Ash's toughest region. He had a rival that consistently beat him by just being better at Pok?mon than he was, and multiple recurring characters that proved they could likely beat him (Conway and Nando to name a couple). Brokenzard, his standard legendary counter, was benched the entire series. He didn't have a broken as hell unique mechanic working for him. Almost every gym leader was a full 3v3 rather than a cheesy plot 1v1. He faced multiple Elite Four members.

That said, he persevered. After consistently losing to Paul, he came back and beat him in the end - with the same team as the most embarrassing defeat. His team was all around impressive, Infernape actually had a higher 1v1 win rate (83%) than Greninja (80%). Counter Shields were a really unique idea that Ash and Dawn came up with as opposed to some bs plot device. Sure he lost to E4 members, but he kept it close (Flint was Infernape's only individual loss after evolving). Oh, and the Tobias battle existed.

So yeah. DP Ash was a fricking badass.

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And how about DP Ash's other DP pokemon? They have win rates that are worst then XY Ash's other Kalos pokemon. And XY Ash did well when battling the Champ of Kalos and I felt that was a better showing of his skills then DP Ash's battles with the E4.

SH60 said:

And how about DP Ash's other DP pokemon? They have win rates that are worst then XY Ash's other Kalos pokemon. And XY Ash did well when battling the Champ of Kalos and I felt that was a better showing of his skills then DP Ash's battles with the E4.

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Yeah. As I mentioned, Ash in Sinnoh had the worst overall winrate. But like I said, that speaks more to how tough the competition was in Sinnoh.

Decidueye said:

Objectively, DP Ash had the lowest non-TR win percent of any generation. But given we're having this discussion, that says FAR more about his opponents than him.

Sinnoh was Ash's toughest region. He had a rival that consistently beat him by just being better at Pok?mon than he was, and multiple recurring characters that proved they could likely beat him (Conway and Nando to name a couple). Brokenzard, his standard legendary counter, was benched the entire series. He didn't have a broken as hell unique mechanic working for him. Almost every gym leader was a full 3v3 rather than a cheesy plot 1v1. He faced multiple Elite Four members.

That said, he persevered. After consistently losing to Paul, he came back and beat him in the end - with the same team as the most embarrassing defeat. His team was all around impressive, Infernape actually had a higher 1v1 win rate (83%) than Greninja (80%). Counter Shields were a really unique idea that Ash and Dawn came up with as opposed to some bs plot device. Sure he lost to E4 members, but he kept it close (Flint was Infernape's only individual loss after evolving). Oh, and the Tobias battle existed.

So yeah. DP Ash was a fricking badass.

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Yeah, honestly, I'd say that says a lot more about him and Pikachu, and NOT in a good way. Granted, it wasn't as bad as in Best Wishes, but Pikachu frankly stank during that region. I'm sorry, but someone who literally beat a Regice single-handedly and with minimum effort should NOT lose nearly as much as he did in DP. I won't comment on the whole "he used old Pok?mon" thing because that doesn't really indicate weakness, really.

Decidueye said:

Yeah. As I mentioned, Ash in Sinnoh had the worst overall winrate. But like I said, that speaks more to how tough the competition was in Sinnoh.

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Infernape was the only reason DP Ash won his battle with Paul in the league without him he would had lost hard. Greninja didn't do all the work in the Kalos league.

Piii said:

XY Ash was much better at his Pokemon skills and training, and because of that he made it to the top runner up in the Kalos League. DP Ash is not a badass and his team wasn't all that impressive, plus the counter shields was nothing more but a poorly done plot device and i'm glad they got rid of it.

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Like Ash-Greninja, the Mega Evolution that wasn't a Mega Evolution that could toss a Champion's ace around like a rag doll and yet lost to a Mega Evolution it had a type advantage against?

Ash-Greninja is perhaps the most poorly done plot device in the anime to date, because the scale of its power was all over the place, and so much emphasis was put on it that it literally overshadowed everything else...and it made zero sense for Ash to lose to Alain.

Meyneth said:

Like Ash-Greninja, the Mega Evolution that wasn't a Mega Evolution that could toss a Champion's ace around like a rag doll and yet lost to a Mega Evolution it had a type advantage against?

Ash-Greninja is perhaps the most poorly done plot device in the anime to date, because the scale of its power was all over the place, and so much emphasis was put on it that it literally overshadowed everything else...and it made zero sense for Ash to lose to Alain.

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Ash-Greninja didn't really make much sense to, and it was a poorly done plot device that didn't do Ash's Kalos team any good. I wasn't happy about Ash's lose to Alain, but at least he did honor his skills and training at the Kalos Pokemon League, he did make it to the top runner-up at the Pokemon League , he had to train hard in order for that to happen.

Piii said:

Ash-Greninja didn't really make much sense to, and it was a poorly done plot device that didn't do Ash's Kalos team any good. I wasn't happy about Ash's lose to Alain, but at least he did honor his skills and training at the Kalos Pokemon League, he did make it to the top runner-up at the Pokemon League , he had to train hard in order for that to happen.

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But when you think about it, Ash's competition for the Kalos League was pretty poor, comparatively speaking - Sawyer is hardly Paul, and Alain is definitely not on the same level as Tobias. Putting XY Ash in DP Ash's position for a minute, do you really think he would have fared any better against Tobias than DP Ash did?

I'm genuinely curious as to your views on that, as I think he would have done worse - Darkrai would have obliterated Hawlucha, Noivern, and Goodra, Ash-Greninja would have taken out Darkrai and then been taken out by Latios, Talonflame would have fared no better than Swellow did, and Pikachu wouldn't have tied with it because it didn't have Volt Tackle. I realise that rests under the assumption that the battle would have played out similarly, but there's no reason to believe Ash wouldn't have started with Hawlucha for the type advantage. He may have saved Noivern I suppose, but it doesn't seem likely.

If you're going to compare DP Ash and XY Ash in terms of achievements, you need to compare their opponents as well, and Paul is arguably stronger than any of the trainers Ash faced in Kalos, Alain included - he has league victories under his belt, repeatedly demolishes Ash over the course of the series, and has a much stronger team than Alain who, like Ash, relies solely on one Pokemon to carry him through Kalos for the most part. It's pretty unfair to judge DP Ash as the weaker trainer just because his opponents are stronger.

Meyneth said:

Like Ash-Greninja, the Mega Evolution that wasn't a Mega Evolution that could toss a Champion's ace around like a rag doll and yet lost to a Mega Evolution it had a type advantage against?

Ash-Greninja is perhaps the most poorly done plot device in the anime to date, because the scale of its power was all over the place, and so much emphasis was put on it that it literally overshadowed everything else...and it made zero sense for Ash to lose to Alain.

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Alain had a op MC-X who beaten 10 mega and a E4 ace mega in a row. What does Paul have?

SH60 said:

Alain had a op MC-X who beaten 10 mega and a E4 ace mega in a row. What does Paul have?

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Um, wrong thread, but OK. Several more years of experience under his belt than Alain? Several extremely heavy hitters of his own? A FULL team, rather than being a one-trick pony? Yeah. One good Pokemon does not a good trainer make.

And if you want to use the E4 argument, then there is ZERO excuse for Ash-Greninja losing to that Mega Charizard X, because it nearly beat Diantha's Mega Gardevoir. The Champion is stronger than the Elite Four, wouldn't you say? Based on that battle alone, Ash should have easily won the Kalos League. I have yet to see a reason for this loss that makes sense.