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[News] Indie game banned from Twitch a year ago, dev still can't get a response

Sektor

Sektor

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    • I feel that the main problem is the lack of communication on behalf of Twitch. I understand the stance on "Oh, it's children" but when it's all said and done, there really isn't much of a difference from say, Twilight, the Hunger Games, Game of Thrones etc. Considering the amount of sexual content in the Game of Thrones I'm surprised to bump into children (teenagers 13-15 or younger) that watch the show, but I do.

    Suffice it to say that this is nothing new, really, teens killing teens and children. Millions flocked to the theaters to see just that so I have no idea why people seem so shocked at this. In my opinion, the game has a unique approach and premise. Kill your rivals and not get caught. That and instead of twelve year olds getting smashed in the face with an axe or speared in a live action film, this game is 100% fake. There are no links between videogames and violence in reality. If that were true, then you wouldn't be able to walk five feet without someone trying to 'Grand Theft Auto' you.

    There seems to be such a harsh view of this game despite it being placed in fantasy land. So far as I know the only games that seem to be banned are those with heavy sexual content bordering or even delving into hardcore pornography.

    If the dev decided to remove the 'age' list or state that everyone is over the age of 18 and it took place on a 'college campus' then would the game still be banned? If Twitch doesn't communicate as to why the game was banned or give him some form of appeal process than can we claim that Twitch has done everything in its power to assist? No. Twitch is being an ass and the dev is stuck with guess work. I think, personally, he should just go to youtube with it.
     
    Lusus

    Lusus

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    • Just dropping this here, since probably no one else will and it will otherwise be ignored for the sake of drama.

    Now on the actual topic... There is a reason you don't find a single kid in a free roam game where you can kill anyone you want, or at least not one that is not invincible. Potential video game cruelty + kids + moral guardians just don't get along very well. You are only going to see kid deaths in cutscenes, completely outside of your control, and ONLY if there is a good reason for it.

    It is different than kid deaths in movies and what not, because YOU are not the one doing it. It is usually some psychopath with no redeeming qualities and even then usually the kid survives and somebody else dies in their place.
     
    Sektor

    Sektor

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    • Lusus Naturae said:
    It is different than kid deaths in movies and what not, because YOU are not the one doing it. It is usually some psychopath with no redeeming qualities and even then usually the kid survives and somebody else dies in their place.
    Click to expand...
    Unfortunately this argument doesn't stand to much scrutiny. It's been argued before that media can influence everyone in general (which is ridiculous) and another could argue that the author or actor wants to kill kids, no? And yet they receive awards and payment for their movies and books. I still don't see how an anime type game based in a high school (where the age of consent is around 16 or so if I recall) is that much different from going around and gunning down civilians in a game like Hatred or lighting someone on fire and pissing the fire out in Postal or mowing them down as they run from your bus of doom in Gran Theft Auto, which all feature graphics attempting to depict reality (or close to it)

    I feel like I need to defend games in general over this, not just because people don't take the medium as seriously as books or movies but because it further pushes it away from the big kid table and put in the kiddie corner.
     
    Hands

    Hands

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    JDJacket said:
    Unfortunately this argument doesn't stand to much scrutiny. It's been argued before that media can influence everyone in general (which is ridiculous) and another could argue that the author or actor wants to kill kids, no? And yet they receive awards and payment for their movies and books. I still don't see how an anime type game based in a high school (where the age of consent is around 16 or so if I recall) is that much different from going around and gunning down civilians in a game like Hatred or lighting someone on fire and pissing the fire out in Postal or mowing them down as they run from your bus of doom in Gran Theft Auto, which all feature graphics attempting to depict reality (or close to it)

    I feel like I need to defend games in general over this, not just because people don't take the medium as seriously as books or movies but because it further pushes it away from the big kid table and put in the kiddie corner.
    Click to expand...

    Contextually, there is a massive difference in taking control of a minor yourself and killing other minors that your character sees as potential sexual rivals and a game or film where an adult kills a kid just because. Especially when one is the whole point of the game and the other is just something you can, and usually do, avoid.
     
    Arc

    Arc

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    • Hands said:
    Contextually, there is a massive difference in taking control of a minor yourself and killing other minors that your character sees as potential sexual rivals and a game or film where an adult kills a kid just because. Especially when one is the whole point of the game and the other is just something you can, and usually do, avoid.
    Click to expand...
    It's a great thing that Yandere Simulator fits the latter of your last sentence there, then.
     
    Hands

    Hands

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    Arc said:
    It's a great thing that Yandere Simulator fits the latter of your last sentence there, then.
    Click to expand...

    Can avoid although the game coaxes you into killing them =/= Usually will avoid because the game makes zero attempt to lead you there and usually doesn't benefit you, if not heavily punishes you, for the action. Yandere Simulator is a trashy game that expects the player to eliminate other children who they are supposed to look at as sexual competition. I'm clearly replying to the statements involving the "you CAN do this in X game and in Y game you could punch a child although at no point would the game ever present it as a viable option or as a core mechanic of the plot or game" trail of thought.
     
    Juno

    Juno

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    Sorry for the wall of text and I hope I don't come off as too argumentative or defensive, but since the video in the OP came out I actually binge watched a bunch of his development videos and I feel like the game has a lot more to offer than a lot of people think it does, so I just wanted to reply to this bit in more detail
    Hands said:
    Can avoid although the game coaxes you into killing them
    Click to expand...
    There are enough obstacles and punishments of murder in Yandere Simulator (some implemented but many still in development/planning) that I'd say the game definitely does not 'coax you' into using murder to eliminate your rivals. Things like:

    - Well designed schedules for every rival to ensure there will always be witnesses around that will report and act on your attempts at murder
    - Teachers will always apprehend you on the spot if there's evidence you committed a crime, but recently he also implemented a feature where students will also take you down if there's 3 or more of them in the vicinity, provided their "nature" allows them to do so (ie. "cowardly" students will never be brave enough to apprehend you)
    - Depending on who you try to kill, they may be trained and able to fight back
    - Your senpai, like any normal human being, has a psyche and mental state that can be broken if too many terrible things happen to the people in his life - if every girl around him starts dying or disappearing mysteriously you will lose him (and subsequently the game) because he will be too mentally scarred, and if he knows it was you then he will hate you forever

    So not only will it be very difficult to actually murder anyone in the final build of the game, but you also have your reputation and Senpai's sanity to worry about as you think about how you go about "eliminating" your rivals, and since the objective of the game is to earn this boy's love, having him go through traumatic experiences is not the way to "win" the game (the girls in the game aren't going to be random characters, but they will all be related to your crush in some way, eg. his childhood best friend, so if/when anything bad happens to them he will surely be affected). Rather than 'coaxing you into killing them', I actually think the opposite is true and this is a huge deterrence to anyone who actually wants to do well in the game.

    Is it still a sick game? Absolutely, it's a very dark game with a lot of mature themes and you play as a sick character who admits to being a psychopath in the opening dialogue - I will not pretend it's a poor, misunderstood game that's all about friendship and romance and that he hasn't put an equal amount of effort into developing the ways you can violently kill your rivals, but there is so much more to this game that meets the eye and to see it labeled "Child Murder Simulator" just seems a bit reductive to me. In the current debug build, yes, you can get away with senseless murder and most of the characters are very easy to kill, but this is not what the final game is supposed to be like - unlike most open-world games, killing NPCs here is not meant to be easy or inconsequential.
     
    Hands

    Hands

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    Juno said:
    Sorry for the wall of text and I hope I don't come off as too argumentative or defensive, but since the video in the OP came out I actually binge watched a bunch of his development videos and I feel like the game has a lot more to offer than a lot of people think it does, so I just wanted to reply to this bit in more detail

    There are enough obstacles and punishments of murder in Yandere Simulator (some implemented but many still in development/planning) that I'd say the game definitely does not 'coax you' into using murder to eliminate your rivals. Things like:

    - Well designed schedules for every rival to ensure there will always be witnesses around that will report and act on your attempts at murder
    - Teachers will always apprehend you on the spot if there's evidence you committed a crime, but recently he also implemented a feature where students will also take you down if there's 3 or more of them in the vicinity, provided their "nature" allows them to do so (ie. "cowardly" students will never be brave enough to apprehend you)
    - Depending on who you try to kill, they may be trained and able to fight back
    - Your senpai, like any normal human being, has a psyche and mental state that can be broken if too many terrible things happen to the people in his life - if every girl around him starts dying or disappearing mysteriously you will lose him (and subsequently the game) because he will be too mentally scarred, and if he knows it was you then he will hate you forever

    So not only will it be very difficult to actually murder anyone in the final build of the game, but you also have your reputation and Senpai's sanity to worry about as you think about how you go about "eliminating" your rivals, and since the objective of the game is to earn this boy's love, having him go through traumatic experiences is not the way to "win" the game (the girls in the game aren't going to be random characters, but they will all be related to your crush in some way, eg. his childhood best friend, so if/when anything bad happens to them he will surely be affected). Rather than 'coaxing you into killing them', I actually think the opposite is true and this is a huge deterrence to anyone who actually wants to do well in the game.

    Is it still a sick game? Absolutely, it's a very dark game with a lot of mature themes and you play as a sick character who admits to being a psychopath in the opening dialogue - I will not pretend it's a poor, misunderstood game that's all about friendship and romance and that he hasn't put an equal amount of effort into developing the ways you can violently kill your rivals, but there is so much more to this game that meets the eye and to see it labeled "Child Murder Simulator" just seems a bit reductive to me. In the current debug build, yes, you can get away with senseless murder and most of the characters are very easy to kill, but this is not what the final game is supposed to be like - unlike most open-world games, killing NPCs here is not meant to be easy or inconsequential.
    Click to expand...

    No need to apologise :> I like detailed and structured discussion and welcome the challenge to my stance


    If the final product has taken serious steps to add an actual level of morality and consequence for killing the other students then I would lower my usual level of scorn for the game, but I'm sure we've all heard Dev promises before that fell flat.
     
    Juno

    Juno

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    Hands said:
    No need to apologise :> I like detailed and structured discussion and welcome the challenge to my stance


    If the final product has taken serious steps to add an actual level of morality and consequence for killing the other students then I would lower my usual level of scorn for the game, but I'm sure we've all heard Dev promises before that fell flat.
    Click to expand...
    Absolutely - looking at just the current build and how YouTubers play it, I'd never have considered it a game of any depth, but having seen the dev's videos just gave me a different perspective on it and I'm actually excited to see what the final version will be like! After 2+ years of development he still seems as eager as ever to work on it, so I'm hopeful he'll accomplish many of the things he talks about in his videos.
     
    Hands

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    Juno said:
    Absolutely - looking at just the current build and how YouTubers play it, I'd never have considered it a game of any depth, but having seen the dev's videos just gave me a different perspective on it and I'm actually excited to see what the final version will be like! After 2+ years of development he still seems as eager as ever to work on it, so I'm hopeful he'll accomplish many of the things he talks about in his videos.
    Click to expand...

    I'll have to reserve full judgement until we have a final product then I think
     
    Sektor

    Sektor

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    • Hands said:
    Contextually, there is a massive difference in taking control of a minor yourself and killing other minors that your character sees as potential sexual rivals and a game or film where an adult kills a kid just because. Especially when one is the whole point of the game and the other is just something you can, and usually do, avoid.
    Click to expand...
    Is it so far to argue that since someone watched the Hunger Games that they want to see children get murdered? It's a tricky argument and for people that exploit these games to further their "See, all games are bad!" agenda. Just because you can do X in a game doesn't mean you should or can. Again, if the developer changed the ages to 18, would you then take issue with it? Seniors in highschool, along with a handful of staff. I took a gander and there is a school nurse, a librarian (I think) and either a teacher or a substitute teacher, so it doesn't look like a game where you're solely going around killing students.

    Also, wouldn't stabbing the nurse or teacher be a good thing if you're wanting to protect digital 'minors'? Which, to be fair, their programming is roughly 2 years old . . . it's an anime game and seems to avoid reality in its entirety so I don't really see the problem. If it really is a problem all he can do is slap ages on everything and everyone as 18+. I also don't see Rampage or Postal on Twitch's banned list. We could also go on to say that what if you're playing a game as a child, say, Limbo for example, and you purposely run into hazards to slay the character?

    I think it's a political correct issue that has been taken far too seriously as of late.
     
    Juno

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    So Twitch finally replied to YandereDev! In a new video uploaded today, he showed an email Twitch sent him, which explains their policy on banned users and games in more detail, why his game was banned in the first place, and why it will likely remain banned until the game is no longer in development and/or is formally rated by ESRB.

    ​

    I think it was a fair response - Twitch described the game as "a moving target" that they simply don't have the time to keep evaluating every time a new build comes out, especially given how frequently YandereDev updates the game. YandereDev was also mostly pleased by the response, as he said all he ever wanted (I mean, aside from getting his game actually ubanned) was just a clear list of reasons. He still voiced his discontent on the double standards on Twitch - that certain games which blatantly break their rules are not held to the same standards as smaller games, even if they may be more violent and sexual, but all in all, he's made peace with the fact that his game will not be reevaluated or unbanned, at least until it's finished.
     
    Pinkie-Dawn

    Pinkie-Dawn

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    • Didn't YandereDev also said that all of the characters in high school are at least 18 thus not violating Twitch's rule on violence against children?
     
    Juno

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    Pinkie-Dawn said:
    Didn't YandereDev also said that all of the characters in high school are at least 18 thus not violating Twitch's rule on violence against children?
    Click to expand...
    Yeah, I was thinking about that too throughout this whole thing - I think in older builds there was a disclaimer at the beginning that said something like 'all characters are over 18', but it's not in the game anymore. He also tweeted this at one point for this specific reason, but I guess it's not a very strong defense since they are clearly in high school and in schoolchildren uniforms.

    But like he said, there's also technically no written rule about violence against students or in a school setting anyway - it's just more of an unspoken taboo in gaming, so if they were just following their guidelines to a T, that still wasn't a direct violation of their rules.
     
    Desert Stream~

    Desert Stream~

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    Now I don't like the premise of the game at all. I hate nudity, and anything like that (violence is ok sometimes). Do I think it should be banned? Honestly, no. I believe people should be able to record whichever game they want. I do think they should add more warnings, so no kids go looking at that (although you could say the same for M rated games, which twitch allows), but I'm against that type of censorship of games.
     
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