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Train travel in America: Is it worth investing in?

FreakyLocz14

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    Here in my state of California, train travel is a hotly debated issue with the proposed California High-Speed Rail. A lot of controversy surrounds it. Some of it is NIMBYism, but there are legitimate concerns as well. Proponents argue that America's rail system is outdated compared to quick and modern train travel in other parts of the world. They argue train travel can become so good that it can replace air travel. American currently has one high-speed rail line: Amtrak's Acela Express, but it only runs at 150 MPH because it runs on non-HSR tracks.

    I'm like to know your thoughts on this. If you're not American, feel free to discuss the state of train travel in your country as well.
     
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  • Train travel in Australia is certainly mediocre compared to a lot of other places too, probably even slower than the US. I think it's probably a good idea to get more efficient and comfortable trains out there because that could reduce travel times, provide revenue for the government if publicly owned and reduce the number of cars on the road improving road safety and carbon emissions. Trains are also greener.

    I definitely support better railways systems.
     

    Nah

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    Last I heard, the US's infrastructure is largely old and outdated, and is likely in need of fixing/replacement/updating solely for safety reasons, nevermind efficiency reasons.

    But I think in a nation as geographically large as the US, having a fast, safe, inexpensive, and wide reaching transportation system is something you'd wanna have. I also suck and prefer not having to drive.
     
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  • Here in my state of California, train travel is a hotly debated issue with the proposed California High-Speed Rail. A lot of controversy surrounds it. Some of it is NIMBYism, but there are legitimate concerns as well. Proponents argue that America's rail system is outdated compared to quick and modern train travel in other parts of the world. They argue train travel can become so good that it can replace air travel. American currently has one high-speed rail line: Amtrak's Acela Express, but it only runs at 150 MPH because it runs on non-HSR tracks.

    I'm like to know your thoughts on this. If you're not American, feel free to discuss the state of train travel in your country as well.

    It's not so much that our rail system is outdated as it is that it's purely optimized for freight. However, there are a lot of rail bridges that definitely need replacing that have yet to be replaced since rail companies are expected to replace them themselves in areas where it's exclusively freight rail that runs along those routes. Freight rail and commuters place very different demands on a rail system. Freight rail travels slower because it can still beat out trucks and planes for overland ferrying in terms of volume moved versus money spent, and because freight is so much heavier than transporting commuters, the trains can only go so fast safely before risking derailment or risking wearing down the railways faster than is cost effective. The only way true HSR happens on a consistent basis is if we build grade-separated passenger rail HSR infrastructure for all HSR routes.

    And, yes, it certainly can replace some short-distance flights in the US (some of which are subsidized some by our government, iirc; though in some areas that subsidy is needed due to distance from anywhere significant), as it can offer equivalent or better travel times for shorter flights at its top speeds without the hassle of dealing with the various things that require you to arrive 2 hours before your flight's stated departure at an airport as well as with none of the pre-flight tarmac waiting to take off.

    Taking Minneapolis to Chicago, for example, even a train with a top speed of 110 MPH along an existing freight rail route that was proposed 5 or 6 years back would be just 5 hours 30 minutes of trip time with stops in several towns and cities along the way. That compares to time spent at the airport and in the air that combines to be 3 hours, 30 minutes, assuming a 2 hour early arrival, which I generally recommend when flying out of either MSP's main terminal or ORD, and the airport travel doesn't factor in the travel time between ORD and Downtown Chicago, if that's where your hotel is, or the travel time from Downtown Minneapolis to MSP. The train's travel time also is an hour faster than the drive time between the 2 cities. And this is all with a train with a projected top speed around 110 MPH. Imagine what improvements could be done at nearly double that top speed.

    (source a: http://www.mnhighspeedrail.com/html/high-speed-faq.php, source b for car travel time is Google Maps, source c for air travel is a combination of Googling flights with estimated flight times combined with my own travel experiences flying out of MSP's main terminal).

    Oh and from a productivity perspective, instead of needing expensive setups to provide WiFi on planes, trains can do WiFi using overland cellular service (at least in theory, though chances are trains are equipped with outdated and expensive equipment instead) or by having travelers just use data from their own plans.

    I wish I could recall all of my sources from a paper I wrote specifically on a Minneapolis-to-Chicago HSR route back in college 5-ish years ago when Scott Walker decided to completely stop construction on the Wisconsin portion of that route even though the construction was already started on upgrades on the Milwaukee to Madison portion of the route (at least IIRC, can't find a source on whether construction had definitively started at this point). I had gone through a sizable cost-benefit analysis (at least as sizable as an 8 page paper written for a technical college can get).
     
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  • I'm a big fan of train travel, but I see a lot of issues with adding trains to a country where everything is mostly designed for cars.

    In some densely packed areas trains could make sense from a convenience standpoint because you'd not be that far from your ultimate destination, but in smaller cities and towns things can be more spread out since commercial and residential areas are often separated over not inconsiderable distances. People don't want trains rolling through their backyards, but then they'll have to go some distance just to get to a train stop. That's extra time (and possibly money if you drive) added to your trip.

    My town is working on putting in a new commuter train line through part of the county and the neighboring county and the stop closest to me is like a 20 minute walk and/or 4~5 minute drive because the only place they could put in a train line was where the old freight line already existed. No space otherwise. It's not a very convenient location for residents or anything else really. A kind of dead area near a major road in town without much in the way of places to park. And all the places I might want to get to by train aren't anywhere near the proposed stops. Things are so spread out in American cities it's hard to see people using trains because it would mean a lot of extra walking or transferring to other public transportation like buses. That's a lot of time, and the costs add up.

    But despite all that I think it's necessary to start the process. We're so far behind in terms of public transportation that we'll need to get some groundwork done. Hopefully in the future we'll find ways to make trains faster, cheaper, and less polluting.
     
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  • How much would imminent domain have to be used?

    "Eminent" is the spelling you're looking for, just for your future reference.

    Probably not as much as rail opponents think (it's seen as this very bad thing by most people for various reasons), but probably more than rail proponents would sometimes like to say will happen.

    Keep in mind rail lines are also used as development tools by cities and regional authorities, since the dedicated pathway makes it a safer bet to build your business near a rail station or along a light rail or street car line that runs at street level when compared to a bus line.
     

    Somewhere_

    i don't know where
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  • "Eminent" is the spelling you're looking for, just for your future reference.

    Probably not as much as rail opponents think (it's seen as this very bad thing by most people for various reasons), but probably more than rail proponents would sometimes like to say will happen.

    Keep in mind rail lines are also used as development tools by cities and regional authorities, since the dedicated pathway makes it a safer bet to build your business near a rail station or along a light rail or street car line that runs at street level when compared to a bus line.

    Its one of those words I always spell wrong. xD

    Abusing eminent domain is seen as bad because it is a violation of property rights... property owners may not consent. Granted, they are paid the value of the property; however, it can be life-changing depending on the property and the payment money comes from those same people.
     
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  • Its one of those words I always spell wrong. xD

    Abusing eminent domain is seen as bad because it is a violation of property rights... property owners may not consent. Granted, they are paid the value of the property; however, it can be life-changing depending on the property and the payment money comes from those same people.

    It's, uh, not just property rights, either. There's a cultural context because it was used viciously to build the interstate system through poor and minority neighborhoods in the 1950s and 1960s. But that's not the focus of this thread.



    And I just realized I didn't quite answer the question in the thread title. I do think it's worth the investment, as it's not just solely for people movement, it's a tool for attracting development to an area and to try to produce more economic activity in that specific area. For a recent case, all one has to do is look at the Green Line in Minneapolis and Saint Paul, and then look at the long list of plots being redeveloped in that corridor as well as the even longer list of proposals for the Green Line's corridor (disclaimer, the Green Line is street level light rail, not HSR).
     

    Arsenic

    [div=font-size: 18px; font-family: 'Kaushan script
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  • I've got a rail line going straight through my town and down towards Boston thats in horrible disrepair. Still a big supporter of fixing it up all the way to Boston. Hell if I had it my way the whole thing would be ripped up and replaced with a MagLev rail through from here and through Boston to New York, Philly and DC. But that's incredibly unrealistic.

    Would love it though as I would rather pay for a train ticket and not have to drive 2.5 hours to Boston and pay for gas.

    Fixing this rail isn't pointless either as we currently have Coach buses that make the trip between Boston, Concord and here so upgrading that system to train would be (i imagine) more efficent.
     

    Sir Codin

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    California certainly needs faster railroad travel, getting to L.A. from Sacramento would go a long way towards saving money on gas and mileage on my car.

    While we're at it, can we make America's internet more modern too? Like, actually start laying fiber-optic cables so we can not have third world internet for $100 a month?
     

    FreakyLocz14

    Conservative Patriot
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    • Seen Aug 29, 2018
    It's not so much that our rail system is outdated as it is that it's purely optimized for freight. However, there are a lot of rail bridges that definitely need replacing that have yet to be replaced since rail companies are expected to replace them themselves in areas where it's exclusively freight rail that runs along those routes. Freight rail and commuters place very different demands on a rail system. Freight rail travels slower because it can still beat out trucks and planes for overland ferrying in terms of volume moved versus money spent, and because freight is so much heavier than transporting commuters, the trains can only go so fast safely before risking derailment or risking wearing down the railways faster than is cost effective. The only way true HSR happens on a consistent basis is if we build grade-separated passenger rail HSR infrastructure for all HSR routes.

    And, yes, it certainly can replace some short-distance flights in the US (some of which are subsidized some by our government, iirc; though in some areas that subsidy is needed due to distance from anywhere significant), as it can offer equivalent or better travel times for shorter flights at its top speeds without the hassle of dealing with the various things that require you to arrive 2 hours before your flight's stated departure at an airport as well as with none of the pre-flight tarmac waiting to take off.

    Taking Minneapolis to Chicago, for example, even a train with a top speed of 110 MPH along an existing freight rail route that was proposed 5 or 6 years back would be just 5 hours 30 minutes of trip time with stops in several towns and cities along the way. That compares to time spent at the airport and in the air that combines to be 3 hours, 30 minutes, assuming a 2 hour early arrival, which I generally recommend when flying out of either MSP's main terminal or ORD, and the airport travel doesn't factor in the travel time between ORD and Downtown Chicago, if that's where your hotel is, or the travel time from Downtown Minneapolis to MSP. The train's travel time also is an hour faster than the drive time between the 2 cities. And this is all with a train with a projected top speed around 110 MPH. Imagine what improvements could be done at nearly double that top speed.

    (source a: http://www.mnhighspeedrail.com/html/high-speed-faq.php, source b for car travel time is Google Maps, source c for air travel is a combination of Googling flights with estimated flight times combined with my own travel experiences flying out of MSP's main terminal).

    Oh and from a productivity perspective, instead of needing expensive setups to provide WiFi on planes, trains can do WiFi using overland cellular service (at least in theory, though chances are trains are equipped with outdated and expensive equipment instead) or by having travelers just use data from their own plans.

    I wish I could recall all of my sources from a paper I wrote specifically on a Minneapolis-to-Chicago HSR route back in college 5-ish years ago when Scott Walker decided to completely stop construction on the Wisconsin portion of that route even though the construction was already started on upgrades on the Milwaukee to Madison portion of the route (at least IIRC, can't find a source on whether construction had definitively started at this point). I had gone through a sizable cost-benefit analysis (at least as sizable as an 8 page paper written for a technical college can get).

    Many conservatives are pointing to the Acela Express as a short of compromise on the issue. Is that not enough, in your opinion?
     
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  • Many conservatives are pointing to the Acela Express as a short of compromise on the issue. Is that not enough, in your opinion?

    Acela's fastest trip time end to end averages a paltry 72 mph. It works in the NEC because of how dense it is, meaning it's still faster than a car most of the time. But that won't fly in other parts of the country where there's less traffic and the top vehicle speed limits are 70 or higher. Acela's equipment is adequate, but FRA rules cap how fast trains can go in shared corridors that are shared with slow passenger rail and freight rail. Many existing corridors follow river valleys, which aren't conducive to maxing out speeds either.
     
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