Bait and Sweep

(EDIT) ANNOUNCEMENT: If you can't accept the offensive play style, while I'm sorry to say this, go somewhere else. =/ I'm looking to improve with my all-out offensive style, nothing else. Thank you.

Sorry guys, no lame witty team name this go around, but if you want to go ahead and spam ideas for that on my profile, nobody's stopping ya. Anyway, running around Smogon the last few days, reading various threads, I found some awesome sets I really wanted to try out... and the result, this team. I felt "Bait and Sweep" fit this team well, because that's how it's generally geared, and overall, I think it's... er, "okay," so I come to you all for some helpful rates and suggestions. :D Also, this team is in the suspect ladder, so no Garchomp or Deoxys-S, so I'd prefer if you didn't even mention them. (And yes, I know they eat me alive anyway)

By now, if you don't know my play style, I suggest you leave, while you still have your pride. :D I also have a nice little format to make Sims' eyes bleed, lovely, eh? :) And for confusion purposes, if you see "????? @ item" It's the Japanese species name, and you really need FireFox. XD (Sorry, I'm in this Japanese craze lately.) Be as harsh as you want, I just want constructive criticism, and suggestions to IMPROVE. Failure to do so, and I'll smack you with a surfboard. That's all I ask. Oh, and don't quote rate me, I hate those with a passion. And unlike my other teams, I wont have a bucket load of comments about each Pocket Monster because this team is fresh out of the oven. (Only two battles so far) Not to mention, I have a feeling you guys are going to suggest a lot of changes, so little comments help in that regard. Anyway... onto the squad.

[ サンダー @ Choice Scarf ]
Ability: PRESSURE
EVs: 4 HP | 252 Special Attack | 252 Speed
Timid nature (+Speed, -Attack)

• Thunderbolt
• U-turn
• Hidden Power [Ice]
• Sleep Talk

[ Suggestions | Comments ]

Irak's Zapdos. :D Thunderbolt for STAB, and Hidden Power [Ice] for general coverage. U-turn to properly scout around if Zapdos can get things rolling in it's favor. Sleep Talk to absorb rather annoying Hypnosis. <<; Changed to Timid for speed tie with opposing DDMence. [ ボーマンダ @ Life Orb ]
Ability: INTIMIDATE
EVs: 40 Attack | 252 SpA | 216 Spe
Nature: Naive

• Draco Meteor
  
• Fire Blast
  
• Roost
• Brick Break
  

[ Suggestions | Comments ]

MixMence for ya. I've had great success with it on previous teams, so I don't mind the change from BulkyDD. Draco Meteor for pure power, Brick Break snagging Pocket Monsters expecting Meteors and such.

[ ヘラクロス @ Salac Berry ]
Ability: SWARM
EVs: 252 Attack | 4 Defense | 252 Speed (30 HP IV)
Nature: Adamant (+ Attack, - Special Attack)

• Megahorn
• Close Combat
• Substitute
• Swords Dance

[ Suggestions | Comments ]

Look Aquilae! It's a Heracross. :D Standard MoPCross, not much to say. Selected over Choice Scarf because that many (3) Scarfers would become redundant.
[ スイクン @ Life Orb ]
Ability: PRESSURE
EVs: 24 HP | 252 Special Attack | 232 Speed
Nature: Timid (+Speed, -Attack)

• Ice Beam
• Calm Mind
• Hydro Pump | Surf
• Hidden Power [Electric]

[ Suggestions | Comments ]

Wow, is this guy fun or what? :D People don't honestly expect a faster then usual Suicune, and hit with a hard Hydro Pump is looks even better. Hydro Pump over Surf to catch OHKO on Metagross and friends, haven't run into any problems with Pump either. Sure sure, PP and accuracy, but if it misses, it misses, I'll move on. Electric for other bulky waters that think they can wall this team. Calm Mind gets in and Suicune goes all happy over the opposing team. :D Ice beam for more fun with coverage and such. EVs and natures hit speed and Life Orb basically eats people. (Not my set either, same with Zapdos, credit goes to Irak) :D [ ルカリオ @ Life Orb ]
Ability: INNER FOCUS
EVs: 252 Atk | 4 Special Defense | 252 Speed
Nature: Adamant (+ Attack, - Special Attack)

• Swords Dance
• Close Combat
• Extremespeed
• Bullet Punch

[ Suggestions | Comments ]

After testing with Crunch, I selected Bullet Punch because Crunch wasn't doing enough, and Gengar really messes around with this team, after one battle. Thankfully I have SR support now, so BP takes out Gengar with SR support. Anyway, standard Lucario that couples incredibly with Speed Demon Suicune. Swords Dance and it's fun in the sun.


Closing comments:
Well, that's the team. Eat it up and thanks for any helpful rates. :)

Scarftran causes you troubles, although Suicune can switch in fairly decently, and Heracross can revenge kill non +speed varients.

Deoxys-S also is a problem, again Suicune is your only defense. I worry because with LO recoil and no access to healing, Suicune won't be able to switch into hits for very long.

I would suggest giving Salamence Wish somewhere on the set. I also don't see the need for Magnezone. Your own Heatran could go decently there, and perhaps giving it a Scarf over Hera's. LO Flame Orb Heracross >> Scarfcross. With Wish support, it should be able to stay around for longer.

I've also had this great fascination with CB Lax on my sweeper teams of late. It completely shut's down Heatran, and gives you that great bulky sweeper feel.

Snorlax@Choice Band
Adamant
252 Atk, 4 Def, 252 Sp. Def
Thick Fat

Selfdestruct/Fire Punch
Crunch/Pursuit
Body Slam
Earthquake

Unfortunately, Selfdestruct+Pursuit is illegal, so you'll need to pick one or the other. This would be the better choice over Magnezone IMO.

I like Extrasensory over Sleep Talk on Zappy, takes Gengar and Roserade leads. You do have Sleep Talk for the Scarf varients, but you won't ever be KO'ing them with any of your moves (other than perhaps HP ICE on Roserade, but I doubt it) I've seen that set doing the rounds on Shoddy, so I can't stop you if you like it...

Other than that, I like the team. I would be worried about D-E, but if you can get Snorlax in on a special move, you should be able to KO with Pursuit, assuming they switch.

I like this team because it isn't heavily SR weak, like many Sweeper Teams i've seen lately.

EDIT: Gah, Suspect Ladder. Disregard the Deoxys argument. =P

~T_S

you have 3 special sweepers and 3 physical sweepers, but no walls. take out one of each and put in a special and physical wall. except for that, you team is pretty solid.

It's a sweeper team. The point is to switch through resistences and overwhelm the opponent. If you read the first part of his post, you would understand.

By now, if you don't know my play style, I suggest you leave, while you still have your pride.

Click to expand...

^^ Capeche?

~T_S

Suspect Ladder = no DX-S

Now, onto the team..

To be honest I don't like BulkyMence, I feel that it only increases your SR weakness, not to mention many common tanks, like Porygon2 which has risen in usage, stop it cold. I'd be afraid of Jolly / Naive HP Ice SDLuke that outspeeds Salamence and snags an easy KO, so I would recommend a Naive Mixmence:

Salamence @ Life Orb
Naive, 40 Attack / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

Draco Meteor
Fire Blast
Brick Break
Roost

With Roost it can sponge off Lucario and Heracross' attacks, and makes a powerful sweeper with Draco Meteor.

By now you should have realised that by changing Salamences moveset, it removes the need for Magnezone on this team. So I feel that another member that contributes to Lucario's sweep should be added over Magnezone:

ScarfHeatran. Cresselia is sort of taken cared of by Heracross, not to mention ScarfTran can beat it one-on-one.

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Timid, 86 HP / 252 SpA / 172 Spe

Fire Blast
Hidden Power [Ice]
Earth Power
Stealth Rock

Oh, and by the way be wary of Tyranitar as you don't really have a reliable switchin to it, try to play Zapdos and Heatran conservatively.

You should lead with Heatran instead of Zapdos as Zapdos lacks the necessary power to KO most leads while Heatran will scare away Bronzong and such. Zapdos should run Timid and maximum Speed to tie at worst with DDMences, and Hidden Power [Ice].

Haileo said:

you have 3 special sweepers and 3 physical sweepers, but no walls. take out one of each and put in a special and physical wall. except for that, you team is pretty solid.

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...I can't even begin to comprehend what you just said. ;/ I'm going to make this very clear for everyone thinking this when they try to rate this team...

Please, take the word 'wall' elsewhere. I don't play that way, I'm an all out offensive player. (Which... didn't six sweepers make that rather obvious?) XD Thanks for the concern, but I don't even care for walls. My belief is that they give my opponent the opportunity to set their feet back up. I'd rather have six sweepers working effectively through prediction, resistances, and immunities then walls holding my powerhouse back. Thank you for commenting, though. :)

Tortured_Soul said:

Scarftran causes you troubles, although Suicune can switch in fairly decently, and Heracross can revenge kill non +speed varients.

Deoxys-S also is a problem, again Suicune is your only defense. I worry because with LO recoil and no access to healing, Suicune won't be able to switch into hits for very long.

I would suggest giving Salamence Wish somewhere on the set. I also don't see the need for Magnezone. Your own Heatran could go decently there, and perhaps giving it a Scarf over Hera's. LO Flame Orb Heracross >> Scarfcross. With Wish support, it should be able to stay around for longer.

I've also had this great fascination with CB Lax on my sweeper teams of late. It completely shut's down Heatran, and gives you that great bulky sweeper feel.

Snorlax@Choice Band
Adamant
252 Atk, 4 Def, 252 Sp. Def
Thick Fat

Selfdestruct/Fire Punch
Crunch/Pursuit
Body Slam
Earthquake

Unfortunately, Selfdestruct+Pursuit is illegal, so you'll need to pick one or the other. This would be the better choice over Magnezone IMO.

I like Extrasensory over Sleep Talk on Zappy, takes Gengar and Roserade leads. You do have Sleep Talk for the Scarf varients, but you won't ever be KO'ing them with any of your moves (other than perhaps HP ICE on Roserade, but I doubt it) I've seen that set doing the rounds on Shoddy, so I can't stop you if you like it...

Other than that, I like the team. I would be worried about D-E, but if you can get Snorlax in on a special move, you should be able to KO with Pursuit, assuming they switch.

I like this team because it isn't heavily SR weak, like many Sweeper Teams i've seen lately.

~T_S

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First off, thanks for the rate T_S. :D As I mentioned, I don't have to worry about Deoxys, it's banned on the suspect ladder for Smogon. >_o

Yeah, Scarftran is a bit of problem to get around. >>; I was thinking about that Scarftran over Magnezone as well. Mag really has been the weakest link, so yeah, I think I will drop it.

As for Zapdos, erm... I think I'm going to keep Sleep Talk. I've seen it in battle, I think it works better. As for Snorlax, mmm... I don't know, I think I'll follow both you and Aquilae and go ScarfTran over Magnezone.

Aquilae said:

Suspect Ladder = no DX-S

Now, onto the team..

To be honest I don't like BulkyMence, I feel that it only increases your SR weakness, not to mention many common tanks, like Porygon2 which has risen in usage, stop it cold. I'd be afraid of Jolly / Naive HP Ice SDLuke that outspeeds Salamence and snags an easy KO, so I would recommend a Naive Mixmence:

Salamence @ Life Orb
Naive, 40 Attack / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

Draco Meteor
Fire Blast
Brick Break
Roost

With Roost it can sponge off Lucario and Heracross' attacks, and makes a powerful sweeper with Draco Meteor.

By now you should have realised that by changing Salamences moveset, it removes the need for Magnezone on this team. So I feel that another member that contributes to Lucario's sweep should be added over Magnezone:

ScarfHeatran. Cresselia is sort of taken cared of by Heracross, not to mention ScarfTran can beat it one-on-one.

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Timid, 86 HP / 252 SpA / 172 Spe

Fire Blast
Hidden Power [Ice]
Earth Power
Stealth Rock

Oh, and by the way be wary of Tyranitar as you don't really have a reliable switchin to it, try to play Zapdos and Heatran conservatively.

You should lead with Heatran instead of Zapdos as Zapdos lacks the necessary power to KO most leads while Heatran will scare away Bronzong and such. Zapdos should run Timid and maximum Speed to tie at worst with DDMences, and Hidden Power [Ice].

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Awesome, thanks Aquilae. Those changes seem fine to me. Will do. (b' ')b

ScarfTran and Salamence also would couple well, stopping opposing Lucario, so yeah, agreed.

For heracross, since... well, three scarfers? Would you all recommend another set? T_S suggests LO Flame Orb, which also seems fine to me. So, yeah, suggestions there, or keep it scarf'd?

Thanks guys.

*goes to edit*

I don't like 3 scarfers, which is why I suggested the other Hera set. But that doesn't mean you keep Heracross at all, you can go for something else, if you were only using it for the scarf value. LO Flame Orb Hera is beastly though, especially with Wish support if you so choose that option...which I think would be a decent choice. Suicune is great with it's bulkiness, but with that EV spread, LO recoil and no recovery move, it's not nearly as impenetrable as originally.

Choice Band or MoPCross in my opinion. Non-AA Gliscor can't beat MoPCross, so that is a plus:

Heracross @ Salac Berry
Jolly, 4 Def / 252 Attack / 252 Spe
30 HP IV
Swarm

Megahorn
Close Combat
Substitute
Swords Dance

0 Attack Gliscor Earthquake only shatters the substitute if it rolls maximum damage. Flame Orb Heracross seems too fragile for me, losing 12% per turn isn't really desirable.

BeachBoy said:

...I can't even begin comprehend what you just said. ;/ I'm going to make this very clear for everyone thinking this when they try to rate this team...

Please, take the word 'wall' elsewhere. I don't play that way, I'm an all out offensive player. (Which... didn't six sweepers make that rather obvious?) XD Thanks for the concern, but I don't even care for walls. My belief is that they give my opponent the opportunity to set their feet back up. I'd rather have six sweepers working effectively through prediction, resistances, and immunities then walls holding my powerhouse back. Thank you for commenting, though. :)

Click to expand...

No, you will get crushed if you lack walls, and that's common sense. Trick Room and Deoxys-E rape the **** out of this team. What if the opponent has a sweeper that outspeeds and destroys your fragile team? You're pretty much screwed if you do not have a defensive counter. This team isn't going to get very far competitively with the tactics and strategies you're using.

I suggest replacing some of your sweepers with a stable physical and special wall, such as Rhyperior and Blissey.

GeneralGuy said:

No, you will get crushed if you lack walls, and that's common sense. Trick Room and Deoxys-E rape the **** out of this team. What if the opponent has a sweeper that outspeeds and destroys your fragile team? You're pretty much screwed if you do not have a defensive counter. This team isn't going to get very far competitively with the tactics and strategies you're using.

I suggest replacing some of your sweepers with a stable physical and special wall, such as Rhyperior and Blissey.

Click to expand...

I suggest your open your eyes to the current metagame. It's very much sweeper based, and walls like Blissey and Cresselia have become set-up fodder for sweepers. People are now wising up and switching through resistences rather than straight out stats. lmao @ Rhyperior being a wall.

Not to mention Beachboy has already stated that this team is being used on the suspect ladder, where neither Garchomp or Deoxys-S are allowed. I also believe * swearing is against the rules.

Read the OP, suspect ladder doesn't have Deoxys-S. To be fair Trick Room might pose a problem but I don't see how it can be a major one since it would be hard to setup against his team and Suicune can stall out the TR without any major problems.

Its not fragile anyways, bulky offense is a viable strategy and is in my opinion the second best team for laddering (husk team would be first), as it minimises chances of criticals and misses which may be detrimental to the strategy.

I can't remember the last time I had walls on any of my teams (bar stall), as I found them setup bait for various sweepers, and sometimes they can't even stop said threat they were supposed to counter.

nice copy pasta on irak's 3 pokes <_<;



anyway

This team doesn't like paralysis, and Blissey has more than enough chances (4/6 pokes here don't mind her much) to come in and start abusing T-Wave. I would seriously consider a Scarf Hitmomlee over Heracross just for this.

Tortured_Soul said:

I suggest your open your eyes to the current metagame. It's very much sweeper based, and walls like Blissey and Cresselia have become set-up fodder for sweepers. People are now wising up and switching through resistences rather than straight out stats.

Click to expand...

Do not worry, I am very aware of how the OU metagame works, and walls are a major key element of competitive battling. Prove me wrong.

lmao @ Rhyperior being a wall.

Click to expand...

438 HP, 394 defense, Solid Rock ability, etc.

I also believe * swearing is against the rules.

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I facepalmed hard at this comment.

GeneralGuy said:

Do not worry, I am very aware of how the OU metagame works, and walls are a major key element of competitive battling. Prove me wrong.

One word ......HUSK.

Click to expand...

Anyways, bypassing the censor is indeed against the rules, so dont =/.

Can we please get on topic? >_>

GeneralGuy said:

No, you will get crushed if you lack walls, and that's common sense. Trick Room and Deoxys-E rape the **** out of this team. What if the opponent has a sweeper that outspeeds and destroys your fragile team? You're pretty much screwed if you do not have a defensive counter. This team isn't going to get very far competitively with the tactics and strategies you're using.

I suggest replacing some of your sweepers with a stable physical and special wall, such as Rhyperior and Blissey.

Click to expand...

*Sigh* Here we go again. Deoxys can't touch me, why? Because it's banned on the suspect ladder. (I know it trashes me otherwise)

BeachBoy on the first paragraph said:

Also, this team is in the suspect ladder, so no Garchomp or Deoxys-S, so I'd prefer if you didn't even mention them. (And yes, I know they eat me alive anyway)

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I'd suggest you read everything in a thread before you comment, just like the Strategies and Movesets Rules state.

Odd, I've used this all-out play my entire competitive life, done just fine. Thanks for the suggestion, but I simply can't accept such. And oh, if they are faster then me, I predict correctly and hit back harder. If it's choiced it'll run into an immunity or resistence, and if it'd orbed and such, they usually aren't fast enough to outspeed my scarfers. It's a viable strategy, and works for me. GeneralGuy if you want to rant about how ineffective offense is... can you take it somewhere else? I've done just fine with it, and I'm okay. So... please, I'm really not a wall kinda guy.

Anyway, editing the thread as we speak. Keep the suggestions commin'. I'll edit this in a bit~

edit:

Sya said:

nice copy pasta on irak's 3 pokes <_<;

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Haha, actually, I just took the Zapdos. XD I was searching around smogon for Zapdos teams and found his, nabbed it. XP Didn't notice he had Cune, though. (I got the Cune later on from the lures thread, same with Aldaron's Lucario since they were mentioned together o.o) But yeah, I'll note credit to him for that bunch~

GeneralGuy said:

I facepalmed hard at this comment.

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Just seconding D_A... And T_S is correct. What you said earlier falls under censor bypass.

Pure offensive teams have become HUGE as of recently, especially after it gave Husk the #1 spot on the ladder. Most teams are on the definite offensive, and the metagame is no longer about countering Pokemon...it's resorted to revenging instead, and this team fits it well. It's swift and against nearly all of the Pokemon in the game.

Thunder Wave Blissey is troublesome though, so you need something that can cleric the team (which on offensive teams, it's impossible without a wall), or you have to abuse the heck out of prediction.

With 2 SR weaks, you'll have to keep SR at bay. The team though is just BRUTAL offensively.

2 SR weaks isn't really a huge problem. Especially considering Mence can Roost off the damage if the opportunity presents itself.

I don't like sleep talk on Zapdos, but I guess it helps with Gengar.

Also, I would prefer Dragon Pulse over HP Ice on Heatran. It does more through Yache than HP Ice. Its also harder to switch in on, with the lack of resistances.

Lastly, you have one Mixed Sweeper. I have found that at least two helps immensely with opening up sweeps for others.

Sorry for the pathetic structure, I am tired.

ABYAY said:

Pure offensive teams have become HUGE as of recently, especially after it gave Husk the #1 spot on the ladder. Most teams are on the definite offensive, and the metagame is no longer about countering Pokemon...it's resorted to revenging instead, and this team fits it well. It's swift and against nearly all of the Pokemon in the game.

Thunder Wave Blissey is troublesome though, so you need something that can cleric the team (which on offensive teams, it's impossible without a wall), or you have to abuse the heck out of prediction.

With 2 SR weaks, you'll have to keep SR at bay. The team though is just BRUTAL offensively.

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Yeah, it mainly is prediction in that regard. Usually, they don't twave a second time right after the first one they snag, so hopefully I can get in a free switch for something to take care of it.

I'm not really worried about Stealth Rock, but eh. ;D Thanks, ABYAY. :)

Archer said:

2 SR weaks isn't really a huge problem. Especially considering Mence can Roost off the damage if the opportunity presents itself.

I don't like sleep talk on Zapdos, but I guess it helps with Gengar.

Also, I would prefer Dragon Pulse over HP Ice on Heatran. It does more through Yache than HP Ice. Its also harder to switch in on, with the lack of resistances.

Lastly, you have one Mixed Sweeper. I have found that at least two helps immensely with opening up sweeps for others.

Sorry for the pathetic structure, I am tired.

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Go to sleep or take a nap! XD

Erm, well, I've found sleep talk helpful, but it doesn't hurt to test other things out, so I'll try some other options. See what happens.

Dragon Pulse, eh? Worth a test as well, I suppose. And on the mixed sweepers, what extra mixed sweeper would you suggest? o.o

And don't worry about "pathetic structure." Rather helpful in my eyes, so it's fine. ^^;

Can't Zapdos learn Extrasensory?
And U-turn with Timid is a bad idea.

Froslass said:

Can't Zapdos learn Extrasensory?
And U-turn with Timid is a bad idea.

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Yes, I believe it can, and one of the options I'll test.

And meh, switches take a higher priority anyway.