Mawilite suspected | Discuss here

[MoxieInfinite]

Mawilite has been put up for suspect testing by Smogon's OU council.

Type: Steel/Fairy
Base stats: 50/85/85/55/55/50
Abilities: Hyper Cutter | Intimidate | Sheer Force (hidden)

Type: Steel/Fairy
Base stats: 50/105/125/55/95/50
Abilities: Huge Power


What do you all think. Ban, or nah?

 

[Dark Azelf]

Mawile is definitely broken imo.

Sucker Punch wrecks offense, its other moves decimate stall in a nutshell.

It can also overwhelm its checks and counters with little effort, much in the same way as Aegislash by mindlessly spamming its STAB moves which have ridiculous neutral coverage.

Also checking and countering this thing is very similar to Aegislash. Its a guessing game that WILL cost you a pokemon if you guess wrong (think gen 4 MixMence). Checking with Venusaur? Good luck taking boosted Iron Heads. Using Skarm/Ferrothorn? Not only does SD Play Rough smack around both but SD Knock Off, Focus Punches from the sub set and Fire Fang wreck both. Using Heatran? Good luck with switching into Knock Off and remaining healthy enough to check it consistently with Half your hp stripped away aswell as your lefties gone. Not only that but the Sub Punch set isnt exactly rare either (Focus Punch annihilates most of its checks btw too). In addition offensive tran is cleanly OHKO'd by SD Sucker Punch. To say this thing has a lack of checks and counters is an understatement. Basically your choice is limited to: bulky fire types with Wisp and/or intimidate and recovery. Arcanine would fit this role as an example.

Mawile also has asinine bulk and typing making it easy to switch in and set up.

Basically this things only debatable point to argue its not broken is well "its slow". Though imo that is easily worked around with its common set and movepool making it a negligible hindrance.

I mean can anyone honestly say "oh cool a pokemon with 678 unboosted attack stat gee wiz that sounds healthy for the metagame!" lol....:/

 

[champagnepapi]

Yea we wont see as much discussion here as opposed to aegis.

257 base attack, priority, great typing and deceptive bulk, just an easy win poke that is not good for ou, clear cut decision

 

[Anti]

Yeah this guy is way more broken than Aeg lol. Let's just go down the list...

Insane Power: It's the strongest poke in the game I think? NOTHING takes hits from it well. Even though Mawile isn't that diverse movepool-wise, it has enough niche-but-viable coverage options to cover anything it wants. I remember when I was getting into XY OU and I read its analysis WIP, where Heatran was "Mawile's best counter." Which loses to any set with Focus Punch, struggles with Knock Off, and is KOed by +2 Sucker Punch with only a little prior damage? Nice counter, lol.

Sucker Punch: Obnoxious 50/50s from Sucker Punch come with this guy just like they do with Bisharp, only Sharp is infinitely more manageable. Simple enough.

Set-Up Opportunities: Unlike something like Mega Pinsir, Mawile has defensive typing (and Intimidate!) that allow it to set up on Outrage, any resisted choice-locked attack, and offensive staples like Lati@s and Assault Vest Azumarill. Against stall? Forget about it.

Match-Up Independent: Tends to be better vs. offense teams, unlike stuff like Mega Heracross. Still can destroy stall if you kill the Will-O-Wisp user. Mawile is such a beast lol.

The Eye Test: Battles with Mawile require much more care than battles against virtually any other offensive threat, even dangerous stuff like Keldeo and Mega Gyarados. You can just tell it's broken. Terrible argument, I know, but I don't want to waste to much time arguing about it when it's so obviously broken. So...

BAN!

 

[Polar Spectrum]

This doesn't affect me much since I don't use tiers, but for the sake of seeing another overused crutch get banned for a laugh, heh yeah. Go ahead - banette. *badum tss*

 

[Cyclone]

Well this just ruined my day. Building a Dark and Fairy team, and Mega Mawile was something I wanted to keep as an option since I otherwise have no coverage for Fairy types that combat me (at least they can't challenge mine much, either). If it gets banned by Smogon, it will technically be carried out where I use it too, following Smogon rules, and Klefki is the only alternative available to me (or a regular Mawile).

 

[Euphoric]

It's definitely worthy of a ban, although I've personally had more problems with Aegi than with it. It just basically has everything - power (HAHAHA), bulk, a great ability, a great typing, enough coverage (it's not the widest but it has what it needs, like Azumarill), and very strong priority. As Dark Azelf said, the only real hindrance it has is its speed, and even then, say, forcing switches, hitting the switchin hard (or SDing), and then using a strong Sucker Punch can get around that.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Mega Mawile has ridiculous power, yes, but so does Rampardos. Sucker Punch is unreliable and can give the opponent a chance to set up.

However, here's what makes Mega Mawile broken in my opinion:
- its two sets have very different sets and counters. For example, Heatran is a great check to the SD set, but is smashed by a Focus Punch on the switch or if M-Mawile is behind a sub. That means Mega Mawile has extremely few counters overall, and even then it can get past them with repeated hits, as nothing prevents it from switching out. Arcanine is really the only thing that can fully counter Mega Mawile
- completely demolishes offensive teams, thanks to its normal form's Intimidate, its great physical bulk in a metagame dominated by physical attackers, its excellent Steel/Fairy typing (only 2 weaknesses). That means it can switch in on dangerous sweepers like Bisharp and Tyranitar and proceed to use Sub or SD.
- can spam Play Rough to great results against defensive teams, especially those that lack Mega Venusaur.

Mega Mawile needs to go.

 

[BadPokemon]

I'm pretty neutral here. It has insane power. Period.

It has a very powerful priority.

Good coverage between fire fang , iron head , play rough, and knock off.

Impeccable typing (only two weaknesses)

Can counter its counters (heatran, skarmory)

Intimidate

Swords dance

The pros of banning:
Staraptor/Florges/ some others in UU/Bl will receive more usage in OU

No more one SD and GG

The Cons:
We lose another mega for diversity.

We lose a strong physically attacking fairy type.

No one will use Mawile in Nu or it's mega in Ubers.

Fire fang is fairly weak.

I feel like Quagsire could be a nice counter with its unaware ability. It can burn Mawile and eq it.

 

[PlatinumDude]

I feel like Quagsire could be a nice counter with its unaware ability. It can burn Mawile and eq it.

Not exactly:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

For Quagsire to be a counter, it has to avoid the 2HKO from a healthy Mega Mawile, which this calc disproves. It's a check at best.

Take note that Scald won't burn Mawile 70% of the time, so relying on Scald won't be really effective unless you're lucky. Quagsire can 2HKO Mega Mawile with Earthquake, however.

Anyway, I'm neutral on the Mega Mawile ban too, though I'm leaning towards banning it. It's got insane power, good bulk and defensive typing. It can essentially choose its own counters depending on the set. For example, while Heatran generally does well against Swords Dance Mawile, it falls to the SubPunch variant.

 

[BadPokemon]

Not exactly:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

For Quagsire to be a counter, it has to avoid the 2HKO from a healthy Mega Mawile, which this calc disproves. It's a check at best.

Take note that Scald won't burn Mawile 70% of the time, so relying on Scald won't be really effective unless you're lucky. Quagsire can 2HKO Mega Mawile with Earthquake, however.

Anyway, I'm neutral on the Mega Mawile ban too, though I'm leaning towards banning it. It's got insane power, good bulk and defensive typing. It can essentially choose its own counters depending on the set. For example, while Heatran generally does well against Swords Dance Mawile, it falls to the SubPunch variant.

I didn't run the calcs. I'm pretty against banning stuff (outside of mega kanga and mega gengar), but I think I'm with you (I'm leaning towards a ban). I'm fairly new to competitive, unlike you. So, I don't know as much about the meta and how it changes.

 

[dontstay96]

I don't play by smogon rules unless someone I'm going to battle wants to, so I usually don't care about what happens with smogon, but c'mon, this went out of hands, because a pokemon is strong now they're going to ban it? Every pokemon has it's counter, including Mawile (and Aegis), you just have to learn how to play against them, like with every strong pokemon (like Garchomp or Ttar), pokemon are there to be used in any battle, that's why they exist, and that's why you can use any pokemon in the official championships, well except legendaries, which (for me) are the only pokemons that should be banned in normal battles...

EDIT: When I said "well except legendaries, which (for me) are the only pokemons that should be banned in normal battles..." I was thinking about legends with higher base stats that pseudos (dialga, arceous, lugia) not the ones with equal or lower bas stats than pseudos (jirachi, articuno) I'm totally okay with those.

 

[Nah]

I don't play by smogon rules unless someone I'm going to battle wants to, so I usually don't care about what happens with smogon, but c'mon, this went out of hands, because a pokemon is strong now they're going to ban it? Every pokemon has it's counter, including Mawile (and Aegis), you just have to learn how to play against them, like with every strong pokemon (like Garchomp or Ttar), pokemon are there to be used in any battle, that's why they exist, and that's why you can use any pokemon in the official championships

If you would like to provide examples of good Mega Mawile counters, that'd be helpful to the discussion here.

well except legendaries, which (for me) are the only pokemons that should be banned in normal battles...

I just have to make a comment about this. Not all legendaries are overpowered, cheap win Pokemon. I don't know why this is such a common thought in the Pokemon world. Yes, legendaries are portrayed to be powerful, but that doesn't mean that all they are. You can't tell me that Articuno or Mesprit is broken.


As for my thoughts on Mega Mawile being suspected....I'm not sure how I feel. On one hand, I have this knee-jerk reaction of "don't ban it" because we've had an awful lot of bans this gen already and I think that too many bans is just another reason for people to hate on Smogon. But on the other hand, people do have legitimate complaints about it too. Mega Mawile has god-level physical power, making stuff like Deoxys-A and Mega Heracross pale in comparison, and it has a great typing both offensively and defensively. What makes it worse is the fact that this gen and last gen have introduced an assload of powerful offensive Pokemon while few equally good defensive Pokemon have been introduced (and Game Freak's idea of helping out the defensive side of things is making Avalugg).

But....is this enough to make Mega Mawile broken? There's a bit of a fine line between "it's just a really good poke" and "this ♥♥♥♥'s OP/broken". So I'm gonna stay neutral on this one, because I'm not gonna pretend I know how Mega Mawile effects the meta, nor have I used it enough/battled against it enough to get a good idea if its broken or not.

 

[Polar Spectrum]

No one's gonna like me for saying this, but stuff like this is why I play doubles hahah. One on one m mawile will play rough with your hopes and dreams of winning, but it's much harder to abuse when it has to worry about 2 poke's responses to whatever move it makes. After all; sucker punch can only stop one earth power or flame thrower at a time.

 

[dontstay96]

I just have to make a comment about this. Not all legendaries are overpowered, cheap win Pokemon. I don't know why this is such a common thought in the Pokemon world. Yes, legendaries are portrayed to be powerful, but that doesn't mean that all they are. You can't tell me that Articuno or Mesprit is broken.

Haha sorry, I wrote that part wrong, I was thinking about the legendaries with really high base stats (like palkia or rayquaza), not about the ones that are actually equal or less than a pseudo (like articuno)

If you would like to provide examples of good Mega Mawile counters, that'd be helpful to the discussion here.

I was thinking about torkoal, huge defense and if I'm not wrong it learns will-o-wisp, another one would be mega manectric, kinda, it has intimidate and can learn fire moves, donphan can take some hits and hit it with eartquake a couple of times, even rotom heat, will-o-wisp in the first turn and I'm pretty sure that an overheat con OHKO (not running calcs), I'm pretty sure that any special super effective STAB hit wil OHKO it

 

[Anti]

The thing about Mega Mawile counters is that they tend to be easily worn down, and more importantly, they tend to be really bed Pokemon in general. Just going down the list...

Torkoal: Cool Pokemon, but a really bad Pokemon :( Easily worn down by SR and Maw's Knock Off.

Mega Manectric: Even with Intimidate, +1 Sucker Punch knocks it out:

+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 297-350 (105.6 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's not even a 50/50 because Mega Manectric runs four attacks. And -1 Play Rough destroys it:

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 223-264 (79.3 - 93.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even without SR down, Sucker Punch closes the deal. Sadly, Manectric isn't even a check.

Donphan: It's a mediocre OU Pokemon, but even with max/max+ defensive investment, it gets run over by Play Rough:

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 352-415 (91.6 - 108%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Again, it's not even a check, sadly.

Rotom-H: Usable in OU, Rotom-H is in fact a Mega Mawile counter. However, like its brother Rotom-W, it's easy to wear down, which is made worse by its weakness to Stealth Rock, and unboosted Knock Off cripples Rotom:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 137-162 (45 - 53.2%)

Between that and Stealth Rock damage, it's something of a one-time check. That being said, it definitely qualifies as about as good an answer to Mega Mawile as there is.

In general, it kinda blows that almost all Mawile checks are weak to Stealth Rock, so if you can adequately pressure you opponent, you can run those checks off the field with good play.

:(

 

[MoxieInfinite]

God i wish rotom-h was better, that typing + ability is so godly sometimes. Best hooh check yn o_o

 

[dontstay96]

The thing about Mega Mawile counters is that they tend to be easily worn down, and more importantly, they tend to be really bed Pokemon in general. Just going down the list...

Torkoal: Cool Pokemon, but a really bad Pokemon :( Easily worn down by SR and Maw's Knock Off.

Mega Manectric: Even with Intimidate, +1 Sucker Punch knocks it out:

+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 297-350 (105.6 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's not even a 50/50 because Mega Manectric runs four attacks. And -1 Play Rough destroys it:

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 223-264 (79.3 - 93.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even without SR down, Sucker Punch closes the deal. Sadly, Manectric isn't even a check.

Donphan: It's a mediocre OU Pokemon, but even with max/max+ defensive investment, it gets run over by Play Rough:

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 352-415 (91.6 - 108%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Again, it's not even a check, sadly.

Rotom-H: Usable in OU, Rotom-H is in fact a Mega Mawile counter. However, like its brother Rotom-W, it's easy to wear down, which is made worse by its weakness to Stealth Rock, and unboosted Knock Off cripples Rotom:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 137-162 (45 - 53.2%)

Between that and Stealth Rock damage, it's something of a one-time check. That being said, it definitely qualifies as about as good an answer to Mega Mawile as there is.

In general, it kinda blows that almost all Mawile checks are weak to Stealth Rock, so if you can adequately pressure you opponent, you can run those checks off the field with good play.

:(

What about Excadrill or Mega Houndoom? Excadrill is faster than mawile and can take it out in one shot, saame as mega houndoom

 

[Euphoric]

Sucker Punch still wrecks Excadrill though, and Mega Houndoom is weak to SR and can't really switch in to Mawile. It's a check, not a counter.

 

[dontstay96]

Sucker Punch still wrecks Excadrill though, and Mega Houndoom is weak to SR and can't really switch in to Mawile. It's a check, not a counter.

Mega houndoom can switch into a predictable sucker punch