Abortion

[Bellsprout]

Most likely if you're considering abortion you're too young and not financially able to raise a child. Now why in the world would anyone want you to have a child when you're not mature enough to raise one and you can't support him/her on your own I really don't know. Let's have someone who is maybe mentally and physically still a child raise a child, wonderful.

Yes there is the option of adoption but seriously how many people want to deal with that when you can get an abortion and be done with it. OBVIOUSLY not everyone who was raised by an inexperienced or not financially stable parent/parents don't all grow up to be stupid so before anyone whines about that I'm addressing it now.

I've heard people say "but my mom was considering abortion and if she went through with it I wouldn't have been born so I want to make it illegal!!" Um okay and who are you and what have you done with your precious life so far? Looks like nothing besides the want to control millions of peoples lives because the fear of you not being born is oh so overwhelming to you.

 

[Oryx]

If I had a child, born but still under my care, and the child needed an organ that I could give, I'm not required to. Even though I made the choice to have the child, even if I can afford the surgery easily, even if I'm healthy and will likely suffer no complications, even if I'm the only match in the entire world for my child, even if the child will die without that one matching organ.

Given this knowledge, it makes no sense that a fetus, human or not, alive or not, is allowed to take advantage of the temporary donation of my uterus without any input from me. If I choose to donate my body to the fetus, that's my business; if I choose not to, then that is also my business.

As we get closer and closer to being able to incubate a child from conception, this moral issue becomes very clear.

 

[Tek]

My general stance on this is similar to what many have already said. Basically, those who are unable to properly care for a child should be allowed to have the option of abortion. Adoption should also be on the table, though that life is a special kind of hell that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

What I think any potential parent ought to do is first ask for advice and support, and then use their own discernment as to how to proceed.

And for the record, I'm a follower of Christ. We aren't all the same.

Back on topic, anyone who thinks that there is one course of action that will work for everyone and in every situation is either unable or unwilling to consider the full complexity of the issue.

 

[Star-Lord]

So is nobody else going to talk about legal statutes concerning the surrender of one's body?

because I think that's a really important point which is conveniently getting glossed over so a child "can have a relationship with god" or something else rofl.

 

[BadPokemon]

Woah, dude, that's not how it works. Have you ever heard of pregnancy complications? One reason to have an abortion is because the fetus is implanted in a tissue, such as the fallopian tubes, where it can harm or kill the mother. All sorts of other complications can happen, which DEFINITELY risk the life of the mother. The mother's health is NOT ALWAYS FINE.

NOBODY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT ABORTING BABIES TO REDUCE CRIME. However, if you knew a thing or two about foster homes you would understand why perhaps giving people the opportunity to prevent that person from living in the first place as opposed to pulling out the "omg just throw them up for adoption" excuse fails so hard on so many levels. Most foster homes are woefully underfinanced and often are in the lower rungs of society. There are many children who will never be adopted because of this or that or the other, and it is every bit as depressing as it sounds.


While this is true, this is also the decision of the mother/father/family involved. There's a lot of procedures that can cause severe complications. Take lung implants for example. Lung implants are hard to do because they will eventually always be rejected by the recipient, which means death. Does that mean we should ban all lung implants? Hell NO. There are cases where lung implants will save someone's life. There are cases where abortions can save people's lives too.

Also, technically, my egg cells and your sperm are "alive" too, so every time I have a period and every time you have a wet dream we "murder" a "potential baby". You know what's also human and alive? HeLa cells.

Please please please do your freaking research before jumping on things.

It's not up to your rosaries and holy book to tell me what I can do with my body. If god was so intent on having every conception provide life, he wouldn't be so cruel to create stillborn babies in the first place anyhow.

It's ultimately your choice to have the abortion. I'm just plain against it and I believe it is murder. Sin is why there are stillborn babies. God simply allows sin to happen. Without it, we wouldn't have free will and there wouldn't be a choice in things. Jesus has defeated sin, and when He comes back, the world will be sinless! The sperm and egg hadn't met yet, so wet dreams and periods aren't murder. We produce more soon after.

 

[Trogd0r917]

The way I see it, if it hasn't been born it's never lived so having it aborted is NOT murder. It hasn't even developed any form of a consiousness (pretty sure I spelled that wrong), so abortion, in my opinion is about as wrong as washing your hands to kill bacteria.

 

[DanZC]

I see that everyone here is Pro-choice. I guess I'll comment on the issue.

Sperm and Eggs are different form ordinary cells in that they only have one set of chromosomes, so they can't function on their own as regular cells do. Once they meet, they form a single cell that has two sets of chromosomes. Whatever you want to say, the cell IS alive and is developing. By scientific terms, it is a human. It has human DNA. It's not finished developing yet, but the fact that it is developing cannot be denied.

When my mother was carrying me, the doctors told her to have an abortion, because they thought I was going to die when I was born. But my mother decided to have me, and thus I was born.

When you consider, ANYONE could have been an abortion victim, even people who are pro-choice. Everyone who is pro-choice was born, whose mother decided not to abort them.

It disgusts me when people degrade sex to where it's simply a leisure activity. If you don't want a baby, don't have sex. Sex is what causes babies and you can't deny that fact. They are consequences for your actions, whether you acknowledge them or not. And this isn't just me. Most of my friends over here in Virginia agree.

Now, of course, any woman can get an abortion when she wants. But the people who really benefit from these abortions are the doctors. Doctors get a bunch of money from Abortion procedures, so wouldn't it make sense to spread the pro-choice ideology so they become more rich?

Anyway, that's my two cents.

 

[Altairis]

If I had a child, born but still under my care, and the child needed an organ that I could give, I'm not required to. Even though I made the choice to have the child, even if I can afford the surgery easily, even if I'm healthy and will likely suffer no complications, even if I'm the only match in the entire world for my child, even if the child will die without that one matching organ.

Given this knowledge, it makes no sense that a fetus, human or not, alive or not, is allowed to take advantage of the temporary donation of my uterus without any input from me. If I choose to donate my body to the fetus, that's my business; if I choose not to, then that is also my business.

As we get closer and closer to being able to incubate a child from conception, this moral issue becomes very clear.

This is my stance. If we cant take life saving organs from dead bodies without the person having signed a permission slip while they are still alive even if they arent using the organs anymore I dont understand how it makes sense to force a living breathing person to give up her job for a period of time to have a kid that could harm her body and that she might not even want.

Longest sentence ever oops.

 

[Dakotah]

It's ultimately your choice to have the abortion. I'm just plain against it and I believe it is murder. Sin is why there are stillborn babies. God simply allows sin to happen. Without it, we wouldn't have free will and there wouldn't be a choice in things. Jesus has defeated sin, and when He comes back, the world will be sinless! The sperm and egg hadn't met yet, so wet dreams and periods aren't murder. We produce more soon after.

You cannot murder what is not protected under the law. An unborn child has no rights under the law. It is not protected by any Constitution that I know of. It is not considered a person. One of the reason personhood amendments (laws that would change the definition of a person to include a fertilized human egg) overwhelmingly fail to be passed is because they all have the potential to convict women of a criminal offense should she suffer a miscarriage. Already there was one instance where a woman who attempted to commit suicide, but failed, while pregnant was charged with murder because her fetus did not survive. Would you charge this woman with murder if you were the prosecutor?

Now you personally may not approve of abortion, but quite frankly, who the heck cares what you believe when your life is not affected one bit by a woman in another part of the world choosing to abort a child she did not want, or cannot raise, or will not be able to carry to term, or was conceived in rape? You have no stake in any woman's decisions on whether to carry a child to term or not, even if the woman is someone you are in a relationship with.

 

[Ivysaur]

When my mother was carrying me, the doctors told her to have an abortion, because they thought I was going to die when I was born. But my mother decided to have me, and thus I was born.

When you consider, ANYONE could have been an abortion victim, even people who are pro-choice. Everyone who is pro-choice was born, whose mother decided not to abort them.

Yes. And that means? If I had been aborted, I wouldn't be here arguing with you and honestly, I wouldn't care because I wouldn't be alive in the first place. Am I supposed to go "omg I could not have existed!! No to abortions!!"? Life is a purposeless accident, I'm glad I'm alive because I find life enjoyable, but if I hadn't been born I wouldn't even have realized. I didn't exist for billions of years and I'll disappear from the world in a few decades, I wouldn't have missed that much.

It disgusts me when people degrade sex to where it's simply a leisure activity. If you don't want a baby, don't have sex. Sex is what causes babies and you can't deny that fact. They are consequences for your actions, whether you acknowledge them or not. And this isn't just me. Most of my friends over here in Virginia agree.

Okay, and my friends in Madrid don't. There are ways (many ways) to prevent pregnancies, I have had sex a bunch of times and my girlfriend isn't pregnant because we used protection. Two different kinds of at once, in fact. Sex is also a way to intimate with your loved one, and hell, it simply feels good. Why make it a sacred once-in-a-lifetime event? Techonolgy has evolved, morals have evolved. I'm sorry it disgusts you but a lot of people do consider sex a leisure activity. I do.

Of course, people need sexual education to teach them all the many, many ways in which you can have sex without getting pregnant. Only people who get pregnant without wanting to are the ones who didn't know about condoms or pills, or didn't know about the consequences. Or, you know, the ones who didn't have any other choice (rape).

The point here is not telling people that they can only have sex to have babies, but rather all the different options they have and let them choose.

Now, of course, any woman can get an abortion when she wants. But the people who really benefit from these abortions are the doctors. Doctors get a bunch of money from Abortion procedures, so wouldn't it make sense to spread the pro-choice ideology so they become more rich?

Dude. I can understand that coming from the developed country with the most absurd healthcare system ever, but in several civilized countries (Canada, most of Europe) it's covered in the single-payer public system, so at the end of the month, the doctor is going to make the same money either way.

Second, your claim makes as much sense as saying that gay marriage ideology is spread by cake-makers who want to profit from all those gay couples asking them for wedding cakes. If they happen to profit, well, nice for them. But you can't "spread an ideology" unless there is some water to it- and I don't really see doctors leading the pro-choice movement, but rather people who think women should not be legally forced by the Government to carry their pregnancies to term if she doesn't want to. The ones profitting here are the women who don't want to have a baby.

 

[Dakotah]

It disgusts me when people degrade sex to where it's simply a leisure activity. If you don't want a baby, don't have sex. Sex is what causes babies and you can't deny that fact. They are consequences for your actions, whether you acknowledge them or not. And this isn't just me. Most of my friends over here in Virginia agree.

Well, for me, sex is most certainly a leisure activity, since there is absolutely zero chance of my boyfriend getting me pregnant. Not for a lack of trying mind you. ;)

 

[JaredJEstes]

I believe men have a right to have an opinion on the issue but only because everyone deserves the right to exPress their views. At no point should laws be written to control a woman's body and especially not by rich white men. It is a woman's body and it is her choice what to do with HER body.

Of course, that's my opinion. There's these 3-4 old white men who sit outside the planned parenthood in oly, wa. It really makes me mad and it's real threatening to women, so I make sure to scold them and say things that make them uncomfortable..

Also danZC if two chromosomes constitutes life and it is therefore wrong to kill life how do you justify the killing of non-human animals, insects and bacteria?

 

[DanZC]

Yes. And that means? If I had been aborted, I wouldn't be here arguing with you and honestly, I wouldn't care because I wouldn't be alive in the first place. Am I supposed to go "omg I could not have existed!! No to abortions!!"? Life is a purposeless accident, I'm glad I'm alive because I find life enjoyable, but if I hadn't been born I wouldn't even have realized. I didn't exist for billions of years and I'll disappear from the world in a few decades, I wouldn't have missed that much.

You say that life purposeless, yet you say you are glad. If you enjoy life, why not share that love with someone else who wouldn't get the chance? I'd rather feel joy alongside pain than feel nothing at all. And if there is no meaning to life, then why don't we go murder people to end their pain? By your views, you could legitimize murder by saying, "O yea hes goin through a lot of pain n agony, so I have a right to kill him."

Okay, and my friends in Madrid don't. There are ways (many ways) to prevent pregnancies, I have had sex a bunch of times and my girlfriend isn't pregnant because we used protection. Two different kinds of at once, in fact. Sex is also a way to intimate with your loved one, and hell, it simply feels good. Why make it a sacred once-in-a-lifetime event? Techonolgy has evolved, morals have evolved. I'm sorry it disgusts you but a lot of people do consider sex a leisure activity. I do.

That's the thing. You NEED protection to have sex and avoid the consequences. You can use sex for whatever you want, but you can't deny that it exists to reproduce.

Two different kinds of at once

Of what? Sex or protection. :P

Also danZC if two chromosomes constitutes life and it is therefore wrong to kill life how do you justify the killing of non-human animals, insects and bacteria?

You misinterpreted me completely. Bacteria and insects don't have Human DNA. Besides, it's illegal to abort babies of other animals (where I live), so why not do the same for Humans?

 

[JaredJEstes]

I'm thinking more about factory farming and the mass murder of farm animals.

So your suggesting that human life is more valuable than non-human life? If so on what basis?

 

[Ivysaur]

You say that life purposeless, yet you say you are glad. If you enjoy life, why not share that love with someone else who wouldn't get the chance? I'd rather feel joy alongside pain than feel nothing at all.

Because I'd rather not force pain upon a person who is already alive and telling me she doesn't want that baby so an hypotetical being who isn't alive yet may be born some day.

And if there is no meaning to life, then why don't we go murder people to end their pain? By your views, you could legitimize murder by saying, "O yea hes goin through a lot of pain n agony, so I have a right to kill him."

Well I love how when you say "life has no real meaning", there is always someone who jumps in saying "well then let's murder everybody". Even if life has no meaning, you know, doing bad things to others without reason is unpolite, mostly because I don't want people to do bad things to me, and I'm sure most can relate to that. "Life has no meaning" doesn't imply "yay no rules whatsoever" because we want to make most of our lives in the brief window we have to enjoy them, don't you think?

Even if life itself has no meaning, that doesn't give anybody the right to singlehandedly decide what to do with someone else's life (like forcing them to carry a pregnancy to term against their will). Interestingly, I'm going to say though that I'm in favour of euthanasia- if the other person has willingly and consciously expressed their will to die, I don't know why we should not offer them a mercy killing. But that's another topic.

That's the thing. You NEED protection to have sex and avoid the consequences. You can use sex for whatever you want, but you can't deny that it exists to reproduce.

Of course. But the answer is offering education to everybody, not banning everybody from having sex.

Of what? Sex or protection. :P

Protection :P

You misinterpreted me completely. Bacteria and insects don't have Human DNA. Besides, it's illegal to abort babies of other animals (where I live), so why not do the same for Humans?

Human DNA is just any old regular DNA with a few misplaced parts. And I guess that's because an animal cannot willigly ask for an abortion, while a human can? I don't know, I have no idea about Virginia law and it's not like it affects more than 8 million people, so it's not like a benchmark for all of mankind.

 

[Tek]

You say that life purposeless, yet you say you are glad. If you enjoy life, why not share that love with someone else who wouldn't get the chance? I'd rather feel joy alongside pain than feel nothing at all. And if there is no meaning to life, then why don't we go murder people to end their pain? By your views, you could legitimize murder by saying, "O yea hes goin through a lot of pain n agony, so I have a right to kill him."

Most everyone here, including Went, is of sufficient moral character to consider regarding murder as wrong, regardless of their view on the purpose - or lack of purpose - of existence.

And life is actually meaning-less in the sense that it does not symbolize anything other than itself. Further, the beauty of existence is that there is absolutely no reason at all that anything should exist! For me, this purposelessness only makes life all the richer.

There simply is no easy answer in these situations. Aborting and not aborting both have the potential for extremely positive and extremely negative consequences.

I'm thinking more about factory farming and the mass murder of farm animals.

So your suggesting that human life is more valuable than non-human life? If so on what basis?

I am SO glad somebody asked this question. Humans have more depth than animals, in the same way that molecules have more depth than atoms. Humans are the pinnacle of eons of evolution, from the cosmos to the bios to the noos to the theos. Humans alone are capable of self-reflection, which is to say that in humans Evolution has become conscious of itself.

The best justification for being a vegetarian I have ever heard was said thusly by Alan Watts: "Because cows scream louder than carrots." Mammals are more complex than plants - they have more depth.

Human DNA is just any old regular DNA with a few misplaced parts.

Yet look at the astonishing new features of the world that have resulted from those few misplaced parts: self-consciousness, morals, art, and civilization.

 

[JaredJEstes]

So because humans have more mental depth they are more valuable? In that case Stephen Hawking is more valuable than Gandhi?

Humans are not the pinnacle of evolution. Evolution is a continuum with no end or beginning, as I believe most anthropologists would agree, we are just existing on small time period within that continuum of evolution. Every species is most fit for its current environment.

 

[Tek]

So because humans have more mental depth they are more valuable? In that case Stephen Hawking is more valuable than Gandhi?

Stephen Hawking and Gandhi are both gods among men, so to speak. You are equating cognitive intelligence with moral and interpersonal intelligence, which is reductionistic.

But the point is that no other creatures are as highly developed as humans.



I think we're having a problem with the word valuable here. What does it even mean? I understand there to be three types of value: ground value, extrinsic value, and intrinsic value.

All animals, in fact all objects including air and poop, are equal expressions of the great Mystery that is the universe (or equal expressions of matter/energy, if you're spooked by spirituality). This is ground value.

Some objects are more fundamental than others: you must first have atoms and molecules before you can have organs and organisms. Therefore some objects have more extrinsic value than others. They are foundational parts of a larger number of more complex wholes.

Finally, some whole objects have a greater number of less complex parts within themselves. This is intrinsic value. And because humans contain the greatest number of less complex parts, humans have the most intrinsic value.





And to get back to our discussion about abortion, fetuses and embryos have less intrinsic value than a fully developed human being. The triune brain and neocortex, with which come self-consciousness, are not part of an unborn child. The fetus contains a fewer evolutionary parts than the mother.

However, fetuses have more extrinsic value than grown humans, because the fetus is a part of that larger whole. You've got to have fetuses to have adult humans. Adults are a part of fewer wholes than fetuses, and therefore have less extrinsic value.

Since someone will go there anyway, I'll jump the gun by pointing out that adults also have more intrinsic value than children. Adult consciousness has evolved to the point where it includes images, symbols, and concepts as parts of the overall self or bodymind. The other side of that coin is that since the child is the foundation for an adult, the child has greater extrinsic value.

The universe works via evolution. Evolution grows more complex structures from less complex ones. There is nothing wrong with assigning value to complexity, and doing so does not make simple things worthless. Simple things and complex things just have different kinds of value!

Humans are not the pinnacle of evolution. Evolution is a continuum with no end or beginning, as I believe most anthropologists would agree, we are just existing on small time period within that continuum of evolution. Every species is most fit for its current environment.

Of course evolution is a continuum. It appears that humanity is going to create the next most complex life form, and that life form might be mechanical rather than organic. But that's neither here nor there, and irrelevant to the discussion.

I'm talking about the way things are right now. We are the most complex organism on this planet, and human consciousness is vastly more complex than the consciousness of any animal. At this moment in time, we are the pinnacle of evolution - we are the product of 13 billion years of cosmological, biological, and mental evolution.

And seriously, enough with the misplaced humility already; even the dumbest human being is an absolutely miraculous product of eons of evolution. Which is one reason why abortion is such a big deal.

 

[JaredJEstes]

But that just proves the value of a life-form or entity is subjective.

It's the same sort of justification that validates the abduction of people by aliens in something like the X-Files.

From their subjective and privileged perspective it benefits them to elevate the value of themselves over the value of another being.

Just because you value yourself and the cognitive processes of humans does not mean they (humans) are any more valuable, though that may be the way you see it.

The whole point is that the value of something is subjective, so while millions of living things are killed daily (including humans) based on one rationalization, there is an upheaval over specifically fetal human deaths based on the perceived elevated status or higher value them.

 

[BadPokemon]

You cannot murder what is not protected under the law. An unborn child has no rights under the law. It is not protected by any Constitution that I know of. It is not considered a person. One of the reason personhood amendments (laws that would change the definition of a person to include a fertilized human egg) overwhelmingly fail to be passed is because they all have the potential to convict women of a criminal offense should she suffer a miscarriage. Already there was one instance where a woman who attempted to commit suicide, but failed, while pregnant was charged with murder because her fetus did not survive. Would you charge this woman with murder if you were the prosecutor?

Now you personally may not approve of abortion, but quite frankly, who the heck cares what you believe when your life is not affected one bit by a woman in another part of the world choosing to abort a child she did not want, or cannot raise, or will not be able to carry to term, or was conceived in rape? You have no stake in any woman's decisions on whether to carry a child to term or not, even if the woman is someone you are in a relationship with.

Actually there is a law that states if someone punches a pregnant women and KILLS her BABY, it is murder. The baby has its own body. Did the baby sign a permission slip to be dismantled and brutely killed into a pile of body parts? I didn't think so.

I see that everyone here is Pro-choice. I guess I'll comment on the issue.

Sperm and Eggs are different form ordinary cells in that they only have one set of chromosomes, so they can't function on their own as regular cells do. Once they meet, they form a single cell that has two sets of chromosomes. Whatever you want to say, the cell IS alive and is developing. By scientific terms, it is a human. It has human DNA. It's not finished developing yet, but the fact that it is developing cannot be denied.

When my mother was carrying me, the doctors told her to have an abortion, because they thought I was going to die when I was born. But my mother decided to have me, and thus I was born.

When you consider, ANYONE could have been an abortion victim, even people who are pro-choice. Everyone who is pro-choice was born, whose mother decided not to abort them.

It disgusts me when people degrade sex to where it's simply a leisure activity. If you don't want a baby, don't have sex. Sex is what causes babies and you can't deny that fact. They are consequences for your actions, whether you acknowledge them or not. And this isn't just me. Most of my friends over here in Virginia agree.

Now, of course, any woman can get an abortion when she wants. But the people who really benefit from these abortions are the doctors. Doctors get a bunch of money from Abortion procedures, so wouldn't it make sense to spread the pro-choice ideology so they become more rich?

Anyway, that's my two cents.

I agree 100% percent. Sex is meant to be a special bond between husband and wife. Now people have sex, kill a baby, and repeat. It's sickening. Would you pro-choice people want to be dead right now or alive? If you desire death, then I can see why you support abortion. If you want to live, then is killing the baby not wrong? That baby could find the cure for cancer, save someone's life, etc.