Are we all Agnostic?

Ok, I see. Are you saying that based in your scientific reasoning of the universe, the outcome of the event is the same? Is it a purposeful, but coincidental at the same time? I would like to see your perspective on it.

Well the thing is, the word "coincidence" doesn't even make sense in this context. A coincidence means that it has a small probability of happening. Probability describes how likely something is to happen upon repeated trial. That said, you can't assess the probability of the universe coming into the form that it's currently in. We only have one universe to examine, i.e. one trial by which to assess the probability of it coming into its current form.

To say with certainty that there's only a 1% chance that the universe could have formed a life sustaining planet (without sentient guidance from a creator), you would need to show that out any given set of 100 universes, only one of them contains any life sustaining planets.

Edit: Technically you would need more than that due to error margins. For example, if you examined 40,000 universes and 4000 turned out to contain life sustaining planets, you could say that there's a 1% chance of it occurring, with a 0.5% error margin. The more trials you perform, the smaller the error margin :P
 
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Well the thing is, the word "coincidence" doesn't even make sense in this context. A coincidence means that it has a small probability of happening. Probability describes how likely something is to happen upon repeated trial. That said, you can't assess the probability of the universe coming into the form that it's currently in. We only have one universe to examine, i.e. one trial by which to assess the probability of it coming into its current form.

To say with certainty that there's only a 1% chance that the universe could have formed a life sustaining planet (without sentient guidance from a creator), you would need to show that out any given set of 100 universes, only one of them contains any life sustaining planets.

Edit: Technically you would need more than that due to error margins. For example, if you examined 40,000 universes and 4000 turned out to contain life sustaining planets, you could say that there's a 1% chance of it occurring, with a 0.5% error margin. The more trials you perform, the smaller the error margin :P

But that's assuming there are multiple universes... But we have no proof. The chances of our Earth being made by chance is 1: billion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion+

Source:
https://m.godtube.com/watch/?v=FJ0J0JNU
 
But that's assuming there are multiple universes... But we have no proof. The chances of our Earth being made by chance is 1: billion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion+

Source:
https://m.godtube.com/watch/?v=FJ0J0JNU

No, this applies even if there's only one universe. The fact that we don't have evidence that there are multiple universes means that it's simply impossible to assess the probability of any outcome concerning this one.

Put another way, since you don't have any evidence that multiple universes exist and are therefore unable to observe them, then how do you know that only 1 out of every billion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion would produce a life sustaining planet?

Btw, I think we're starting to get into a totally different discussion, so I'll VM you, if you don't mind :3
 
I'm Agnostic-Athiest. I don't currently believe there is a God; however, I do not bash the idea that a God does not exist. If I knew of one, or if maybe I could understand the faith, then maybe I would. I actually have been viewing things on a more spirtual since recently. I feel as if we all have spirits. And, really, the things we believe determine our afterlife.

Basically, a Muslim goes to "their heaven" for serving Allah. A Christian goes to "Heaven" for worshipping God. It's all what you want it to believe. A Jehovah Witness would go back on Earth for wanting to be a part of a New Perfect World.

I think it's really just you getting rewarded with your good behavior.

I don't like the classifications of religion and that is my main reason. I think it's unfair that someone who is born to worship Allah and has no understanding on the Christian religion deserves to go to Hell for serving what he believes. And vice versa.

I'm very open with religions and stuff, and I just feel like every religion is equal. Whether you're Rastafarian - Athiest- Christian, it's all the same. You can believe whatever you want.

Now, to answer your topic. No, I don't think everyone is Agnostic. There are people who 100% believe in what they believe. They don't believe in a God. They believe in Their God. So many people have no doubt in their mind that God exists and that's okay. I don't think being agnostic is a classification that everyone gets. And, to some people, it could be pretty degrating that you are questioning a faith that they believe so highly in.
 
https://xkcd.com/774/

relevant.

https://actok.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Agnostic+v+Gnostic+v+Atheist+v+Theist.png

also there's a table that might help. This is a two dimensional sort of question, and a few of you are wrongly looking at "whether someone believes or not" which isn't the factor for agnosticism.

a-gnostic. Not sure. a-pathy. Without feeling. a-trophy's origin was "without food." So, in this case, the actual act of agnosticism in a religious context is not claiming to know for certain about your view.

I think the OP's error in this case is the assumption that in order to be "gnostic" - to know that a god exists or doesn't; you require 100% concrete evidence in the eyes of everybody; of which there is none.

And that is wrong- because in actuality, all you need to be gnostic is 100% concrete evidence in your own eyes. And there are plenty of people that have that, be they cocky scientists who reckon their evidence disproves the possibility of deities beyond doubt, or be they religious devouts who see their faith as founded for whatever reasons they may have for it.

I personally have no faith in a deity. This means I am an atheist as opposed to a theist.
I am not 100% certain that my lack of belief in a god is certainly correct however, and that makes me agnostic as opposed to gnostic.

okay back to your trivial arguments go go go
 
No one really knows that there is a God. No one can know. You'd have to experience it to know it. No one has experienced God, or comeback from death.


I have experienced God, and do so whenever I can. I go to a church where experiencing God is held to be more important than any particular beliefs or ideas one has about God. And the entire tradition of Zen Buddhism, along with other Eastern traditions, are based entirely upon bringing about the experience of God, which they call the Tao. Thousands of people, religious or otherwise, have experienced God throughout history.

Your statement is misinformed, and your entire argument thereby falls apart.
 
I have seen the argument be made that the experience of God may well be an experience, but is really in the head. I haven't personally had any experience on which I can gauge that theory one way or the other. And either way, setting a standard for "experiencing God" would be difficult, if not impossible, to do.
 
I have seen the argument be made that the experience of God may well be an experience, but is really in the head.

Ha ha! That's rich.

All experience is really in the head. The brain is ultimately what turns electromagmetic radiation into light and color and sound, turns pressure and temperature into touch, hot, and cold, turns certain combinations of atoms into smell and taste. The human organism is evoking the whole thing.

You don't have a dead and stupid universe on the one hand and a happy accident called life and consciousness on the other. The two arise together or not at all.



And either way, setting a standard for "experiencing God" would be difficult, if not impossible, to do.

That's not so. There are three basic categories that all reports of an experience of God or Beyond or Infinite or Whatever fall into. These are 'being' states in which oneself is the infinite, 'connecting' states in which one speaks to an infinite presence or being, and 'contemplating' states in which one thinks about the infinite harmony in a 3rd-person fashion.

All of which are very distinctive and recognizable, and share common traits across cultures and epochs. It's really not difficult at all to "standardize" or classify, though it is very difficult not to fall in to the trap of confusing these words and thoughts about reality with the actual reality itself.
 
That's not so. There are three basic categories that all reports of an experience of God or Beyond or Infinite or Whatever fall into. These are 'being' states in which oneself is the infinite, 'connecting' states in which one speaks to an infinite presence or being, and 'contemplating' states in which one thinks about the infinite harmony in a 3rd-person fashion.

All of which are very distinctive and recognizable, and share common traits across cultures and epochs. It's really not difficult at all to "standardize" or classify, though it is very difficult not to fall in to the trap of confusing these words and thoughts about reality with the actual reality itself.

I have to ask, because I'm stilling not understanding this, but why do you and other people believe that this experience (which, btw, what is it that you do to have this experience?) is of a God/gods/higher power? Yes, you all have experienced basically the same thing, but why is it that you've all more or less come to the conclusion that what you've experienced is in fact a God/gods/higher power? Why could it not be something else?
 
I have to ask, because I'm stilling not understanding this, but why do you and other people believe that this experience (which, btw, what is it that you do to have this experience?) is of a God/gods/higher power? Yes, you all have experienced basically the same thing, but why is it that you've all more or less come to the conclusion that what you've experienced is in fact a God/gods/higher power? Why could it not be something else?


When you're happy, how do you know it's happiness and not something else? When you're angry, how do you know it's anger and not something else? I know this is going to be a bit unsatisfactory, but the truth is: you just know. It feels like coming home; It feels like nothing else.




But to break it down somewhat, we can analyze a common feature of the mystical experience. People report the sensation that existence is not composed of separate parts, but is a unified and connected Whole. It is in them, and they are in it, and nothing has ever been otherwise.

With that in mind, let's quickly examine the general trend of human growth. There are two really simple ways that you can summarize what happens as people develop. One is that we learn to take a greater number of perspectives. Another is to say that mental growth is a process of expanding the boundary line between self and other, which I find to be more illuminating.




Many people identify only with certain parts of their conscious mind; they repress or deny certain unwanted or uncomfortable thoughts and desires. Psychotherapy allows people to re-own these repressed thoughts, moving the boundary from 'persona' to 'ego.'

Most people stop there, which is as good a place as any to stop, I suppose. At this point, one is identified with the conscious mind and the voluntary bodily processes. But the line can shift again, and people sometimes learn that the entire bodymind is, in fact, their 'self.'

This often comes with a great sense of security, for the ego is constructed of memories, and when one lives there, one has a constant need to build up and defend the memory-self. But the 'centauric' self (to borrow Ken Wilber's term) is built upon felt awareness, which needs no building up or defending. The ego is entirely an abstract conception. The bodymind, or centaur, is a concrete reality.

Generally, conventional psychologists do not recognize any further redrawings of the self/not-self boundary. They stop at the skin boundary, for surely your skin separates you from the rest of the world, right? But this boundary is just as arbitrary as the ones that came before. This skin boundary, like all boundaries that separate things from one another, is a product of the human mind.




When you imagine a flower, what do you see? The petals on top, and maybe the stalk too? Perhaps even the entire plant, roots and all. But what about the field in which it grows? You might say, "Well the field isn't part of the flower!"

But is that really true? A flower is no flower at all without a field in which to grow. In our heads, we can separate the two, in order to more clearly speak about them. But in actuality, there is no line that divides them.

There are many ways to illustrate this principle, this confusion of our ideas about reality with reality itself:

Where does my lap go when I stand up? What happens to my fist when I open my hand? When we see that 'lap' and 'fist' are just abstractions, there is no confusion.

Can you draw a circle that only has an outside, and no inside? Can you draw a figure without a background? We have two separate words - inside and outside - but the actual things arise together or not at all.

We say, "I saw the light flash," but there are not three separate things involved here - light, flashing, and I. The light is the flashing, and there is no flashing when there is no observer.




The point is, we can separate in our minds what is not separate in actuality. And the separation of one's organism from the total environment is no different. So then, the boundary line can and does shift in such a way that a person's sense of self expands beyond the individual bodymind, into the transpersonal domain.

And the final expansion, obviously, is to see, finally and concretely, that the entire universe is your body, and that there are no separate parts, but only an endless Whole.




And with that, we've come full circle to the essence of the mystical experience. But you had a second question: How does one experience this? Thankfully, it will not take you years of psychotherapy, followed by years of centauric feeling-awareness practice, followed by years of transpersonal practice, to get a taste of Infinity (all of that is precisely what is required, however, if you want to live consistently from that state of being; stages of growth take time and practice).

Sometimes, this experience just happens to people; You're looking at a beautiful sunrise and 'wham!' the sun is rising in you. It also tends to happen when people are faced with extremely dire circumstances. The self has no choice at this point but to transcend or to break down.

But one can also bring this experience about intentionally, by creating a set of circumstances in which the boundaries can naturally dissolve. There are many people who teach you a lot more about how to experience this than I can. I recommend Eckhart Tolle, Alan Watts, and Ken Wilber. YouTube's a good place to start, and you should be able to find their books on Amazon, or if you have an Apple device, then on the iBooks store.

Here's a quote from my post in the "Changing Beliefs" thread. This quote is taken from Ken Wilber's writings, but the actual process has been around for a very long time. I think it originates with Vedanta, or perhaps Mahayana Buddhism.

Don't take my word for it that your awareness is infinite, that all things are arising within you. Take up a meditative practice (and stick with it, because it's not something that can be learned overnight) and see what you find. You can get a taste of infinity right now, though, even if only temporarily. Here's another passage from the works of Ken Wilber, which in turn is inspired by Vedanta:

"Notice first of all the broad, distinguishing marks of the transcendent self: it is a center and expanse of awareness that is creatively detached from one's personal mind, body, emotions, thoughts, and feelings. So if you would like to begin to work at intuiting this transcendent self within you that goes beyond you, the You that is not you, then proceed as follows.

Slowly begin to recite the following to yourself, trying to realize as vividly as possible the import of each statement:

I have a body, but I am not my body. I can see and feel my body, and what can be seen and felt is not the Seer. My body may be tired or excited, sick or healthy, heavy or light, but that has nothing to do with my inward I. I have a body, but I am not my body.

I have desires, but I am not my desires. I can know my desires, and what can be known is not the Knower. Desires come and go, floating through my awareness, but they do not affect my inward I. I have a desires but I am not desires.

I have emotions, but I am not my emotions. I can sense and feel my emotions, and what can be sensed and felt is not the Feeler. Emotions pass through me, but that does not affect my inward I. I have emotions, but I am not my emotions.

I have thoughts, but I am not my thoughts. I can know and intuit my thoughts, and what can be known is not the Knower. Thoughts come to me and leave me, but they do not affect my inward I. I have a thoughts, but I am not my thoughts.

This done - perhaps several times - one then affirms, as concretely as possible: I am what remains, a pure center of awareness, an unmoved witness of all these thoughts, emotions, feelings, and desires."



This can be summarized fairly easily. In your concrete and felt experience, all things - including your own thoughts and the entire manifest universe - are arising as objects in your awareness. Since you are something other than these things, since you are aware of them, you must therefore be something vast enough to contain all of time and space.

This part of you is the Witness, the Divine from the 1st person perspective, because it is infinite and ultimately beyond any description. And the final truth, present even now in your direct experience, is that the Seer is nothing other than all things seen. And this is what I understand God/Spirit/Mystery to be. It can be pointed out by saying what it is not, but even to say "It is everything" does not describe it, for that implies a "nothing" that it is not - and then it wouldn't be everything.

Here we have departed fully from "belief", and from metaphysics. After you have felt the Infinite, there is nothing that can be said one way or another to change the experience. It is unmistakable, and unforgettable.
 
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