Arena Trap

[Aurora]

Recently, Dugtrio has become very problematic in RU because of Arena Trap. The removal of Mega Steelix in particular turned Dugtrio in the best revenge killer in the tier, as it can fit on any team archetype (yes, even stall) and pick and choose what it kills thanks to its ability to trap grounded opponents. In particular, Registeel + Alomomola cores have become a pain in the hind quarters to take down if the user of that core has a Dugtrio, because the Pokemon that beat that core lose to it (Virizion being the best example). This makes offensive teams much worse, and has resulted in calls to suspect it. As someone who almost exclusively uses offense, I concur with a Dugtrio suspect, as it is surprisingly difficult to cover both when teambuilding and when playing.

However, now there is a discussion on banning Arena Trap altogether. This would make Arena Trap Dugtrio only usable in Ubers (where it is unviable) while leaving Sand Force and Sand Veil Dugtrio legal - much like what happened when Shadow Tag was banned. People who support this ban cite how Dugtrio makes stall a headache to deal with in OU, as well as how - due to its ability - it prevents switching, allowing a well-played Dugtrio to do what it likes. However, critics believe that Mega Sableye is the issue, stating that Mega Sableye's inherent restriction on teambuilding makes Dugtrio all the more potent and that banning Dugtrio would be treating the symptom. I do not play OU, but I am aware that Mega Sableye has been suspected in the past and that a good amount of OU players feel that the community decision to not ban Mega Sableye was a bad one.

What do you make of this? Do you think Arena Trap should be banned? Do you find Dugtrio a problematic presence in RU and/or OU? Do you think Mega Sableye should be suspected instead of Dugtrio being banned?

 

[Mobile Tsk]

Dugtrio in RU is a huge pain to deal with. Many neutral hits will fall just short of the OHKO, leaving Dugtrio free to swap out from one of its checks and then swap back in to trap another Pokemon. This is particularly true if it can get Wish support from Alomomola. However in OU Dugtrio is unable to switch in on a lot of things it would like to trap and remove, and may not have the bulk to get the job done either. But I agree it takes out a lot of the healthiness of the metagame and I would really hate to have to start running Shed Shell on things like Magnezone, Charizard-X, Rotom-W, etc. For now it doesn't seem too troublesome in OU, but it isn't being used too often. That being said, if Arena Trap is banned, Dugtrio won't be viable in Ubers and will likely drop to PU. I'm just not sure it's necessary because Dugtrio lacks the power to OHKO nearly all of OU's top threats and if they are able to hit back with a powerful STAB move or super effective coverage move they'll likely OHKO with a little previous damage.

 

[Nah]

Trapping moves and abilities will always not be liked since it (temporarily) removes a fundamental aspect of singles: switching. It gives a pretty big advantage to the person with the trapping abilities.

I really don't understand why so many people seem to want Mega Sableye banned. The 'mon is damn good and should probably be moved up to S rank but it's not something that needs to be banned. The problem is, like when they suspect tested it along Shadow Tag Gothitelle, the trapping ability, not the other way around, since the trapping ability poke often makes removal of your Mega Sableye answer easy for them. If you ban Mega Sableye you still have to deal with the trapping 'mon nullifying a basic part of competitive singles. There are plenty of viable offensive OU 'mons that can combat Mega Sableye; no need to bend over backwards during team-building to deal with it. I think people just, for reasons that have never been adequately explained to me, hate defensive play (and this is not even exclusive to Pokemon, you see it in other metagames too).

I can't comment on Dugtrio in RU since I've never played RU.

 

[5qwerty]

it's ok all you have to do is run balloon tran with magma storm taunt toxic but then miss anyway like i do every single time vs stall

I would really hate to have to start running Shed Shell on things like Magnezone, Charizard-X, Rotom-W, etc

It's ironic that Mag has to be the one running Shed Shell.
Also, I'm hoping that you just forgot that Megas can't have hold items, and that Rotom isn't grounded, and thus cannot be trapped. Mag and Heatran are probably the most vulnerable when I think about Dugtrio in OU.

The only for-sure method that I can think of for beating Sableye Dugtrio + Stall Friends is Air Balloon Heatran (with Magma Storm, Taunt, Toxic). (And by viable I mean it's not just some counter-team thing that only works vs one playstyle and gets blown away by the rest)

I haven't played vs Dugtrio stall that much myself, but I feel like you can play around it (though very very hard). For example, your opponent knows that you're going into Heatran, so you stay in (assuming you beat Dugtrio, like Keldeo vs their Amoonguss or something) or switch into something that pressures his Dugtrio instead. To beat stall you already have to outpredict or cheese, so you just have to outpredict more I guess.

I don't think Arena Trap is too broken. Its presence does mean that you have to think a lot before you move. But it also makes your opponent more predictable (assuming he/she's not stupid and thinks Amoonguss beats Heatran or something). If you make the right predictions you can still win versus it (given that your team isn't complete garbage). If your opponent outpredicts you then you would have lost regardless of what team they were using.

 

[gimmepie]

I don't much like Arena Trap but I don't think Arena Trap Dugtrio is nearly as broken as Shadow Tag Gothitelle. I could reason it being too much for RU, because Dugtrio is just so damn fast and still hits reasonably hard but I think in OU with the number of Flying/Levitate mons around it's pretty reasonable, especially with how frail it is.

I also don't think Sableye needs banning ftr.

 

[Mobile Tsk]

it's ok all you have to do is run balloon tran with magma storm taunt toxic but then miss anyway like i do every single time vs stall


It's ironic that Mag has to be the one running Shed Shell.
Also, I'm hoping that you just forgot that Megas can't have hold items, and that Rotom isn't grounded, and thus cannot be trapped. Mag and Heatran are probably the most vulnerable when I think about Dugtrio in OU.

The only for-sure method that I can think of for beating Sableye Dugtrio + Stall Friends is Air Balloon Heatran (with Magma Storm, Taunt, Toxic). (And by viable I mean it's not just some counter-team thing that only works vs one playstyle and gets blown away by the rest)

I haven't played vs Dugtrio stall that much myself, but I feel like you can play around it (though very very hard). For example, your opponent knows that you're going into Heatran, so you stay in (assuming you beat Dugtrio, like Keldeo vs their Amoonguss or something) or switch into something that pressures his Dugtrio instead. To beat stall you already have to outpredict or cheese, so you just have to outpredict more I guess.

I don't think Arena Trap is too broken. Its presence does mean that you have to think a lot before you move. But it also makes your opponent more predictable (assuming he/she's not stupid and thinks Amoonguss beats Heatran or something). If you make the right predictions you can still win versus it (given that your team isn't complete garbage). If your opponent outpredicts you then you would have lost regardless of what team they were using.

Oh yes I did forget about Charizard-X not being able to hold items and Rotom-W having Levitate. That does level the playing field for Rotom-W quite a bit, and Dugtrio wouldn't want to risk taking a Hydro Pump anyway. I feel like Charizard-X would probably survive an Earthquake though (need to run calcs) and would probably OHKO back with a strong Dragon-type move against Dugtrio's pitiful physical bulk.

 

[Anti]

trapping is an inherently uncompetitive mechanic that should be removed from the competitive game

e: to be clear, this includes magnet pull & you can easily make a case for pursuit being banworthy too

 

[Mobile Tsk]

Looks like Dugtrio is getting the suspect test that it deserves. I just recently started trying out RU and I love the metagame a lot but I do think Dugtrio's presence severely limits teambuilding. I also agree with Anti that it is an uncompetitive mechanic. Dugtrio can trap Pokemon like Registeel and give Pokemon like Braviary carte blanche to rip through an entire team without any real prediction from the Dugtrio user. It remains to be seen whether Dugtrio (or by extention Arena Trap) will fall to a similar fate in UU/OU. While the uncompetitiveness of the game mechanic is still there, there are many threats in UU and OU that are more capable of punishing Dugtrio switch-ins, even if they are the exact types of Pokemon Dugtrio would be hoping to trap. However it's still hopelessly uncompetitive and Dugtrio can trap a wide array of Pokemon, unlike Magnezone, which is generally not considered broken.

 

[gimmepie]

trapping is an inherently uncompetitive mechanic that should be removed from the competitive game

e: to be clear, this includes magnet pull & you can easily make a case for pursuit being banworthy too

Honestly I think Pursuit is worse than Magnet Pull or Arena Trap. Magnet Pull is very specific since it only traps Steel mons and Arena Trap is basically Shadow Tag true, but the only fully-evolved Pokemon that gets it is extremely fragile and has a limited movepool.

Pursuit though is widely spread, does super-effective damage to two types and neutral to plenty more and is readily available to several Pokemon that easily force switches.

 

[Aurora]

I feel Magnet Pull is less uncompetitive than Arena Trap because it affects a relatively small range of Pokemon. However, I understand why a case could be made for banning it, as it exacerbates team matchup issues that much more. It has also spawned discussions regarding Magneton's viability in OU that last up to 30 posts in length, which is a grievous offence that should force an immediate suspect test. Pursuit is an interesting case, as it effectively "traps" a surprisingly large range of Pokemon and is the most accessible method of trapping. I can vouch for how irritating it is in RU, as the small amount of viable Dark resists in RU make Pursuit trappers very potent. This has the effect of making, say, Hoopa a lot worse, as it cannot safely come in unless the opposing Pursuit trapper is killed. Slowking also becomes a riskier choice as it is very vulnerable to physical Dark-type moves such as Pursuit. I have never actually thought of the idea of banning it, but after thinking a bit I can see why one would feel that way.

The OU council seems to have come to the consensus that banning Dugtrio is a bad idea and that Mega Sableye should be suspected instead. It also appears that Dugtrio will be banned from RU, given the overwhelming support for banning it in the suspect discussion thread.

 

[Nah]

The OU council seems to have come to the consensus that banning Dugtrio is a bad idea and that Mega Sableye should be suspected instead.

Is banning Arena Trap not an option anyone brought up? Dugtrio w/o Arena Trap is not suspect or ban worthy, but Dugtrio w/ Arena Trap is. Mega Sableye is still not the problem here.

 

[Aurora]

Is banning Arena Trap not an option anyone brought up? Dugtrio w/o Arena Trap is not suspect or ban worthy, but Dugtrio w/ Arena Trap is. Mega Sableye is still not the problem here.

Banning Arena Trap was shut down by two members of the OU council.

boudouche settled the dugtrio issue; we will not be suspecting arena trap.

 

[Nah]

And the reasons for not suspecting Arena Trap being....?

 

[Aurora]

And the reasons for not suspecting Arena Trap being....?

Boudouche outlines in this post why he feels an Arena Trap ban would not solve OU's problems. He labels Dugtrio on its own as merely an 'interesting Pokemon with unique merits', stating that 'Dugtrio is only a good Pokemon that fits perfectly to Mega Sableye's qualities'. In his opinion, Mega Sableye making certain stallbreakers univable means that Dugtrio is able to easily fit on stall and trap the wallbreakers that threaten to overwhelm the defensive cores that are the backbones of stall teams.

 

[Mobile Tsk]

Well if Mega Sableye is banned (I'm not sure how likely that is) that certainly does open teambuilding for more powerful wallbreakers that would have had a huge issue with Mega Sableye. I agree that Dugtrio doesn't seem too menacing in OU -- many of the threats that it would hope to be able to trap based on typing will simply overwhelm it. I have some examples below. For these calcs I used the standard 252 Atk with Hasty nature OU trapper set.

Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def / Mild Nature Jirachi: 77.4 - 91.4% -- Guaranteed 2HKO
132 Atk / Mild Nature Jirachi's Iron Head vs. Dugtrio: 99 - 122.3 - 144.7% --- Guaranteed OHKO

Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def / Careful Nature: Excadrill: 83.9 - 99.5% -- Guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk / Careful Nature Excadrill's Earthquake vs. Dugtrio: 174.6 - 205.9% -- Guaranteed OHKO

Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def / Jolly Nature Charizard-Mega-X: 73.4 - 86.8% -- Guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Charizard-Mega-X's Flare Blitz vs. Dugtrio: 317.9 - 374.6% -- Guaranteed OHKO

Put simply Dugtrio doesn't have the bulk or power to pressure what would otherwise be favorable matchups due to typing. It can't switch into any Pokemon that it would want to trap and must instead both get a free switch, AND have prior damage on the opposing Pokemon to be successful. I'm not saying this means it isn't broken, just that it's not as successful a strategy in OU as it would be in RU, where offensive threats are generally OHKO'd by Dugtrio's Earthquake and defensive threats don't have enough power to put offensive pressure on Dugtrio.

 

[gimmepie]

Am I really the only one who has never struggled against M-Sableye? There's a whole plethora of Pokemon that worry me a lot more.

 

[PlatinumDude]

Well if Mega Sableye is banned (I'm not sure how likely that is) that certainly does open teambuilding for more powerful wallbreakers that would have had a huge issue with Mega Sableye. I agree that Dugtrio doesn't seem too menacing in OU -- many of the threats that it would hope to be able to trap based on typing will simply overwhelm it. I have some examples below. For these calcs I used the standard 252 Atk with Hasty nature OU trapper set.

Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def / Mild Nature Jirachi: 77.4 - 91.4% -- Guaranteed 2HKO
132 Atk / Mild Nature Jirachi's Iron Head vs. Dugtrio: 99 - 122.3 - 144.7% --- Guaranteed OHKO

Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def / Careful Nature: Excadrill: 83.9 - 99.5% -- Guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk / Careful Nature Excadrill's Earthquake vs. Dugtrio: 174.6 - 205.9% -- Guaranteed OHKO

Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def / Jolly Nature Charizard-Mega-X: 73.4 - 86.8% -- Guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Charizard-Mega-X's Flare Blitz vs. Dugtrio: 317.9 - 374.6% -- Guaranteed OHKO

Put simply Dugtrio doesn't have the bulk or power to pressure what would otherwise be favorable matchups due to typing. It can't switch into any Pokemon that it would want to trap and must instead both get a free switch, AND have prior damage on the opposing Pokemon to be successful. I'm not saying this means it isn't broken, just that it's not as successful a strategy in OU as it would be in RU, where offensive threats are generally OHKO'd by Dugtrio's Earthquake and defensive threats don't have enough power to put offensive pressure on Dugtrio.

While it's true that Dugtrio isn't that strong, you also need to take Stealth Rock damage into account, as it's omnipresent and even a small chance for Dugtrio to OHKO something can be risky. Bulky Excadrill has an 18.8% chance to be OHKOed, while Jolly Charizard X has an 81.3% chance to get OHKOed (by Earthquake for both).

 

[Mobile Tsk]

While it's true that Dugtrio isn't that strong, you also need to take Stealth Rock damage into account, as it's omnipresent and even a small chance for Dugtrio to OHKO something can be risky. Bulky Excadrill has an 18.8% chance to be OHKOed, while Jolly Charizard X has an 81.3% chance to get OHKOed (by Earthquake for both).

I don't think it's quite omnipresent like it was in Gen 4 due to the increased viability of different hazard control options (Defog, Magic Bounce, etc.) but you still have an excellent point that Stealth Rock damage will make what would normally be good emergency checks to Dugtrio rather poor checks. I think maybe giving it some time will determine whether Dugtrio will become overcentralizing in OU. Right now it looks almost certain to be banned in RU. I think the ban to BL2 will probably increase usage in UU and OU with people reconsidering its worth in higher tiers. If the usage increases we will probably see more definitively whether Dugtrio restricts teambuilding.

I think that the consideration of a Mega Sableye ban is rather silly. It is setup fodder for nearly any specially offensive setup sweeper and can be dealt with fairly easily by Lopunny, Clefable, Diancie, etc. I think some people are just frustrated that it scrambles prediction so much.