Bad items on bad pokemon with bad sets that make them worse!

[Anti]

your definition of "contributes something to match-ups" is still too narrow. i don't see how "sand cancels manaphy's leftovers!!" counts as a contribution but knocking off ferrothorn, whose passive recovery is so vital to its longevity, is not. and so it goes. anyway, azumarill puts in plenty of work against teams like latios/keldeo/landorus-t/raikou/mega/filler. what is switching into azumarill on that team, despite how "weak" it is? while the mega or filler will usually help in that department, it's certainly not a bad match-up. i don't see those shitass teams much anymore, but i'm just giving an idea of the sorts of match-ups where it can succeed. (this is why i find the claim that these pokes sacrifice significant offensive presence to be rather disingenuous: not every team is running mega venusaur or some ****.) i really wouldn't underestimate the utility of knock and priority (even prio as piss-weak as aqua jet) which can both be clutch in a number of unforeseeable situations. "i'd rather have slowbro" doesn't cut it when slowbro's typing simply affords it a different niche such that which one you'd rather have is entirely team-dependent, unless you're building around your av user in which case you're a bad player and should quit immediately. but some advantages of azumarill that immediately come to mind are that it doesn't bait pursuit/uturn/knock off like slowbro does, has priority and knock, hits harder, and has a far superior second stab. slowbro has advantages too (regen, scald, etc.), but saying one is "better" is silly. these are support pokes: how good they are depends upon the team around them. this is not that complicated.

re: match-up dependency, every pokemon as match-up dependent. literally every single one. charizard x is good vs. most playstyles in a very broad sense, but good luck against a weather offense or a random quagsire stall. hippowdon as the poster child for this is especially silly when almost every stall easily prevents it from setting hazards or can spin/defog them away easily, and even with an offense or more aggressive balance it's super easy to build against since it's so easy to overload (like in this replay. sand is barely a contribution in stall matches, certainly no more of one than, saying, av azum knocking off an amoonguss or something would be.

in short, no, they're not useless. you just use teams that are naturally very well prepared for these pokes, so of course they're wildly ineffective. but "good" and "bad" are more fluid in a few of these cases. (just to be clear, other cases like av amoonguss or something do not fall under this category since it's bad in every conceivable way lol.) you can cherrypick negatives and claim something is bad, but that doesn't make it so. there's nothing wrong with being a jack of all trades: just ask clefable. ;)

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

AV Bro beats Talon, Zard X etc better and takes physical hits ALOT better than king. It just depends on what you are weak to.

Goodra is a poor ass vest user because its slow, prone to status, has 4mss if you drop something for Dragon Tail, easy to wear down, fairy bait, pursuit bait, focus miss sucks, no passive recovery move etc.

AV Bro can't tank Brave Birds as well as the defensive set can (I mean it takes 90% from +2 Sharp Beak BB) and Charizard X can 2HKO with +1 Dragon Claw while the SD + Tailwind set shits on it. Not worth trading much higher special bulk for the ability to beat Zard X and Talon slightly better imo. You'd need to have something such as Tyranitar or Flame Plate Heatran in both cases.

Goodra isn't that slow for an AV user, it has 80 speed while Azumarill and Bisharp are slower. Unlike other AV users it does at least completely wall Charizard Y, Manectric and Heatran (which it beats via muddy water). Goodra can also launch Sludge Waves to 2HKO most fairies while pursuit users bar T-Tar can't easily switch in.

 

[Dark Azelf]

@ Anti ok i see your points but id at least support **** like that with Healing Wish, i hate easy to wear down things like that holding my team together lol. Also @ the ferrothorn i wouldnt say lefties are vital since they also run rocky helmet alot.

AV Bro can't tank Brave Birds as well as the defensive set can (I mean it takes 90% from +2 Sharp Beak BB) and Charizard X can 2HKO with +1 Dragon Claw while the SD + Tailwind set shits on it. Not worth trading much higher special bulk for the ability to beat Zard X and Talon slightly better imo. You'd need to have something such as Tyranitar or Flame Plate Heatran in both cases.

Goodra isn't that slow for an AV user, it has 80 speed while Azumarill and Bisharp are slower. Unlike other AV users it does at least completely wall Charizard Y, Manectric and Heatran (which it beats via muddy water). Goodra can also launch Sludge Waves to 2HKO most fairies while pursuit users bar T-Tar can't easily switch in.

It doesnt take 90% from SD Brave Bird it takes around the same damage as the defensive standard set lol. Foul Play crushes DD Zard. No Slowbro set beats SD Zard so that example is irrelevant.

Sure Goodra beats those but it just gives away momentum against Manectric and tbh Heatran can just Toxic/Lava Plume it and takes 40% maximum from Muddy Water protect and then switch which is easy to wear down hence being status bait. :\ Thats sometimes not even a 3hko to put it in perspective. Its a momentum gift in a box for your opponent even worse than Raikou and Azu lol. CB Tyranitar (common Zard y partner too btw) takes even less from it and 2hko's you if you stay in with Pursuit. It has no priority so its slow, at least Azu and Bisharp have that to compensate.

 

[Sayuri]

Assault Vest Sableye, anyone?

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

It doesnt take 90% from SD Brave Bird it takes around the same damage as the defensive standard set lol. Foul Play crushes DD Zard. No Slowbro set beats SD Zard so that example is irrelevant.

Sure Goodra beats those but it just gives away momentum against Manectric and tbh Heatran can just Toxic/Lava Plume it and takes 40% maximum from Muddy Water protect and then switch which is easy to wear down hence being status bait. :\ Thats sometimes not even a 3hko to put it in perspective. Its a momentum gift in a box for your opponent even worse than Raikou and Azu lol. CB Tyranitar (common Zard y partner too btw) takes even less from it and 2hko's you if you stay in with Pursuit. It has no priority so its slow, at least Azu and Bisharp have that to compensate.

+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowbro: 315-372 (80.1 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(why would you invest your EVs into physical defense when you are using AV is something I'll never understand. Also does AV Bro/King have room for Foul Play? Last time I checked, King runs Scald, Psychic/Future Sight, Fire Blast and either Dragon Tail or Ice Beam.)

As for Goodra v Manectric you usually lure Manectric with something weak to Thunderbolt or Overheat, double switch to a Ground-type and then finally to Goodra, and something probably dies to Draco Meteor or gets 2HKOed by Sludge Wave.
Against Tran I meant offensive variants which can't do squat and get 2HKOed back, but if you suspect defensive tran trying to switch in then pressure it with Dragon Tail and hazards or run Earthquake (which even with a modest nature 2HKOes easily through Protect - 0- Atk Goodra Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 248-292 (64.4 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Same for Ttar. Goodra can even run Focus Miss to beat Tyranitar + Zard Y cores though I personally don't like focus blast at all because it usually has better things to beat (and of course 70% acc).

^ AV Sableye is even more aids than AV Doublade.

 

[Dark Azelf]

+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowbro: 315-372 (80.1 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(why would you invest your EVs into physical defense when you are using AV is something I'll never understand. Also does AV Bro/King have room for Foul Play? Last time I checked, King runs Scald, Psychic/Future Sight, Fire Blast and either Dragon Tail or Ice Beam.)

As for Goodra v Manectric you usually lure Manectric with something weak to Thunderbolt or Overheat, double switch to a Ground-type and then finally to Goodra, and something probably dies to Draco Meteor or gets 2HKOed by Sludge Wave.
Against Tran I meant offensive variants which can't do squat and get 2HKOed back, but if you suspect defensive tran trying to switch in then pressure it with Dragon Tail and hazards or run Earthquake (which even with a modest nature 2HKOes easily through Protect - 0- Atk Goodra Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 248-292 (64.4 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Same for Ttar. Goodra can even run Focus Miss to beat Tyranitar + Zard Y cores though I personally don't like focus blast at all because it usually has better things to beat (and of course 70% acc).

^ AV Sableye is even more aids than AV Doubdilade.

Not using def evs on any slowbro is literal suicide even with assvest. Its a bulky pivot so no def evs are retarded lol. Anyway it usually runs Psyshock/Scald/Filler/Filler the latter two are two from Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Foul Play or Future Sight. Slowbro doesnt get DTail. Iirc the evs were something like 248 HP / 116 Def / 96 S.Atk / 48 Sp.Def @ Bold. I cant remember what they hit exactly but i remember them avoiding the 2hko from MMeta Grass Knot, avoid the 2hko and OHKO from jolly zard and talon after DD and SD respectively, stop zard-y OHKOing you after rocks with solar beam, also avoids the 2hko from MManectric Volt Switch and some other **** icr some **** like living a knock off from bisharp and something else to do with power herb solar beam tran and specs keldeo and enough to 2hko M-Meta with Fire Blast and OHKO Ferro and Bisharp.

Also that sounds like alot of ****ing around to make Goodra seem viable and to even get it into play without literally gifting the opposition player momentum even against things it actually counters like M-Manectric lol.. Also what are you gonna run Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Sludge Bomb, Focus Blast, Dragon Tail and EQ to disguise the fact that it has appalling 4mss and still beaten by like everything and not to mention EQ is absolute **** against anything not called Heatran lol. :\

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Not using def evs on any slowbro is literal suicide even with assvest. Its a bulky pivot so no def evs are retarded lol. Anyway it usually runs Psyshock/Scald/Filler/Filler the latter two are two from Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Foul Play or Future Sight. Slowbro doesnt get DTail. Iirc the evs were something like 248 HP / 116 Def / 96 S.Atk / 48 Sp.Def @ Bold. I cant remember what they hit exactly but i remember them avoiding the 2hko from MMeta Grass Knot, avoid the 2hko and OHKO from jolly zard and talon after DD and SD respectively, stop zard-y OHKOing you after rocks with solar beam, also avoids the 2hko from MManectric Volt Switch and some other **** icr some **** like living a knock off from bisharp and something else to do with power herb solar beam tran and specs keldeo and enough to 2hko M-Meta with Fire Blast and OHKO Ferro and Bisharp.

Also that sounds like alot of ****ing around to make Goodra seem viable and to even get it into play without literally gifting the opposition player momentum even against things it actually counters like M-Manectric lol.. Also what are you gonna run Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Sludge Bomb, Focus Blast, Dragon Tail and EQ to disguise the fact that it has appalling 4mss and still beaten by like everything and not to mention EQ is absolute **** against anything not called Heatran lol. :\

idk I never actually used AV bro, this was all theorymon, but I gotta try it one day because at this moment I still see little reason to use it over king because wow it seems so hard to OHKO. no way in hell is tran OHKOing you if zard-Y can't.

as I said, focus blast is generally **** on goodra except for beating t-tar + zard-Y cores and you generally want to pair it with something that gets rid of t-tar (LO conk comes to mind, but also something like bulky mega scizor, skarmory) as well as special walls in general, which LO conk can usually remove fairly easily as it also takes on chansey, heatran and opposing AV mons (knock off). EQ is usually only for heatran but i'd just slash it with dragon tail and focus miss depending on what you want to beat. draco, fire blast and sludge wave are mandatory nonetheless.

 

[Anti]

hmm, this isn't a very rigorous argument, but i've just never seen a good goodra team, felt the urge to use one on my teams, or faced goodra and gone "damn, i'm in a tough spot here." i think one of its big issues is that it faced huge competition from latios and latias, so its niche isn't as urgent, and the mons it checks are easier for offenses to pressure, play around, or overwhelm (manaphy, charizard y, gengar, keldeo, etc.) with the exception of manectric.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Just faced an Ass Vest Serperior lol. {D:} Though to be fair, its probably one of the better ones frailer offense can utilize, at least its a good blanket check to water types i guess that can sweep and has psuedo recovery in Giga Drain lol. It gets the elf seal of approval....just.

 

[Bidoof FTW]

hmm, this isn't a very rigorous argument, but i've just never seen a good goodra team, felt the urge to use one on my teams, or faced goodra and gone "damn, i'm in a tough spot here." i think one of its big issues is that it faced huge competition from latios and latias, so its niche isn't as urgent, and the mons it checks are easier for offenses to pressure, play around, or overwhelm (manaphy, charizard y, gengar, keldeo, etc.) with the exception of manectric.

I know that you mostly OU, but what do you think of Goodra in UU, without the competition from the Latis and the overwhelming pokemon that you mentioned, is it much more viable? Or does it face the same issues, but with different pokemon?

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

speaking of Serperior, I keep seeing random Choice Scarf sets on the low ladder -_-

@Goodra: Goodra and the Latis are quite different and the latter can't and shouldn't be used as tanks... Latios and Latias have high speed, Defog, Calm Mind, Roost and Psyshock, Goodra has Fire Blast, Sludge Wave, Dragon Tail and colossal special bulk from the get-go.

Lastly, please stop using these sets:

Rhyperior @ WEAKNESS POLICY
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch / Aqua Tail

Spoiler:

Weakness Policy 11.086%
Rhyperior will usually be targeted by Water- and Grass-type attacks, and considering its 3x (factoring in Solid Rock) weakness and below-average special bulk when uninvested, it usually isn't worth running in OU. In fact Rock Polish sets are quite bad, considering Rhyperior can't outspeed Weavile even at +2, and it's best to take advantage of its huge physical bulk or run a Swords Dance set under Trick Room. But if you REALLY want to use RP, at least use Life Orb or something, not freaking WP -_-

Milotic @ Assault Vest
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature

- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dragon Tail
- Scald / Hidden Power Fire

Spoiler:

Competitive 31.473%
I don't think I need to explain that AV Milotic is ass. The serpent beauty isn't Goodra, who at least has STAB Draco Meteor and enough coverage to defeat a lot of threats. Milotic only has Ice Beam (I guess) and a random Hidden Power which hits like a wet bag considering her mediocre Special Attack stat. Competitive seems good but then you realize Bisharp and Thundurus exist.

 

[Anti]

I know that you mostly OU, but what do you think of Goodra in UU, without the competition from the Latis and the overwhelming pokemon that you mentioned, is it much more viable? Or does it face the same issues, but with different pokemon?

no idea, depends entirely on the metagame around it. i'm guessing it probably is, but that's not necessarily the case.

Goodra and the Latis are quite different and the latter can't and shouldn't be used as tanks... Latios and Latias have high speed, Defog, Calm Mind, Roost and Psyshock, Goodra has Fire Blast, Sludge Wave, Dragon Tail and colossal special bulk from the get-go.

completely missing the point, latis and goodra compete for a teamslot b/c they check a bunch of the same things and have similar defensive niches. i'm perfectly aware of their differences, but rarely are goodra's advantages actually attractive enough to want to use it when latios exists.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

completely missing the point, latis and goodra compete for a teamslot b/c they check a bunch of the same things and have similar defensive niches. i'm perfectly aware of their differences, but rarely are goodra's advantages actually attractive enough to want to use it when latios exists.

latios is pressed to do many things and with all the LO and rocks damage, inability to run AV itself (due to poor coverage options and giving up roost/cm/defog) and inability to beat gengar and steels reliably are something worth considering imo. when mons like ferrothorn and bisharp are everywhere, latios really struggles to draco meteor away or remove hazards. at least goodra can threaten those ****ers with fire blast.

 

[Anti]

yeah these advantages are worth considering, but the vast majority of the time latios is a better choice for teams. if you're interested in debating this point, then i don't really know what to tell you. (even the advantages you listed are pretty iffy when latios can easily run hp fire and often does, and hazards hurt goodra a lot more when it doesn't have recovery and isn't immune to spikes.) goodra just isn't very good...

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

yeah these advantages are worth considering, but the vast majority of the time latios is a better choice for teams. if you're interested in debating this point, then i don't really know what to tell you. (even the advantages you listed are pretty iffy when latios can easily run hp fire and often does, and hazards hurt goodra a lot more when it doesn't have recovery and isn't immune to spikes.) goodra just isn't very good...

latios is definitely better for obvious reasons, but as i said goodra has a few notable advantages that make it worth considering. (btw is HP Fire latios still common? are there more and more CM latios poping up on the ladder or is it just me)