Best Wishes! and Double Standards...

[weedle_mchairybug]

BW is canon and it will always be canon, the only series that can even be consider non canon is DP and this BW bashing really do needs to stop, if Ash makes it to the top 2 in the Kalos League and not the top 4 then Kalos can be seen as a much better improvement over sinnoh.
To be honest Hoenn was the first worst Pokemon League of the anime despite how good the battles were, Sinnoh was the second worst Pokemon League even though Ash made it to the top 4, that's still not a lot to say he improved a whole lot in Sinnoh, Unova comes in Third for being the worst Pokemon League and even though he did made it to the top 8 again, atleast it does shows that BW Ash was still a smart advance Pokemon trainer.

Smart advanced Pokémon trainer? BW? Are you serious?! He basically bombed against a trainer who he should have beaten effortlessly, Trip, who was literally just starting out when he arrived at the region! That's not a smart trainer at all, that's a stupid trainer, JJM-episode-3-of-the-original-series-losing to-an-inexperienced-barely-even-alive-Caterpie-level stupid, worse than even Kanto Ash. Heck, it's not even a skilled trainer either, in fact, it's the exact opposite, an absolutely abysmal trainer, to quote Misty "[Ash is] the worst, and will never become a Pokémon Master in a million years" at this rate! And please don't give me that he was depowered. 1. Pikachu faced TR beforehand with the same problems, so Ash definitely would have been familiar with it by then, and 2. Pikachu definitely knows more than just electric attacks, like Iron Tail or Quick Attack.

 

[Piks]

I'll try to comment what I can on the issue, and I haven't exactly watched much of BW so its not much I can offer on (although I will mention I was pretty ticked at how pathetically Ash lost against Trip and the League outcome):

Your second, eighth, tenth, eleventh, twelfth, fourteenth, and seventeenth points either don't really interest me enough to reply to them or I actually agree with them. But as for the others:

Actually, I'm not sure Akira Toriyama actually declared GT to be an alternate dimension. He certainly claimed Dragonball Evolution to be such however (heck, that trashy movie's the reason why we've got Battle of the Gods, the first DBZ movie in over a decade).

You have to remember the fact that Pikachu lost it's attack move due to Zekrom also Ash at the time didn't know Pikachu lost it's attack moves, i'm pretty sure Ash would of won the battle against Trip if it wasn't for Zekrom taken away Pikachu's attack moves.

BW Ash might have made a few mistakes but he wasn't dumb and i'm pretty sure he wasn't any smarter in DP he still made mistakes which is the samething.

BW was a new fresh start just like AG was and it is canon to the show, Ash still know about his old Pokemon at Oak's Lab and the only series that seem non canon is DP, don't forget that each time a new Pokemon series starts they always ignore the past Pokemon Leagues Ash was in, is the writers way of making each new series a fresh start.

 

[Aquacorde]

You continue to argue that somehow, DP felt as if it was ignoring canon much more than BW. However, you have yet to give evidence proving this. In fact, there really is no evidence- with the amount of recurring characters from and references to Ash's past that DP had in comparison to BW, it really is BW that doesn't feel like it catered to canon. We understand that you are a major BW fan. This is no excuse to ignore every piece of evidence that you do not like, nor does it make your opinions fact.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

You have to remember the fact that Pikachu lost it's attack move due to Zekrom also Ash at the time didn't know Pikachu lost it's attack moves, i'm pretty sure Ash would of won the battle against Trip if it wasn't for Zekrom taken away Pikachu's attack moves.

Actually, he faced off against Team Rocket beforehand and got his butt kicked, so he definitely would have had some idea about that. And besides, need I really remind you that Pikachu has attacks that aren't electric type attacks like Iron Tail?

BW Ash might have made a few mistakes but he wasn't dumb and i'm pretty sure he wasn't any smarter in DP he still made mistakes which is the samething.

I don't recall any prior incarnation of Ash ever mistaking a human for a Pokémon despite it being pretty obvious even at a quick glance that she isn't one, much less a specific type of Pokémon like Axew.

BW was a new fresh start just like AG was and it is canon to the show, Ash still know about his old Pokemon at Oak's Lab and the only series that seem non canon is DP, don't forget that each time a new Pokemon series starts they always ignore the past Pokemon Leagues Ash was in, is the writers way of making each new series a fresh start.

Actually, each time, they usually make sure to note Ash's current ranking in the Leagues, so it's not even a true fresh start. A REAL Fresh Start would be omitting Ash and Pikachu, heck, JJM as well.

 

[Wobbu]

I don't think there's much of an argument on which series is more canon. Both series are canon whether someone believes it or not. Literally all of Ash's Pokémon and traveling companions from all previous series are referenced. The only way you could view BW as being less canon is how you perceive Ash, but I say that the reasons for his 'reset' are a matter of imagination and interpretation.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

I don't think there's much of an argument on which series is more canon. Both series are canon whether someone believes it or not. Literally all of Ash's Pokémon and traveling companions from all previous series are referenced. The only way you could view BW as being less canon is how you perceive Ash, but I say that the reasons for his 'reset' are a matter of imagination and interpretation.

AG may technically be canon, but it is skippable considering that:

A. Ash basically ended up staying at the same level as in Johto;

B. May got replaced with Dawn only for her to do the kind of goal May was doing anyways;

C. The Battle Frontier not only is barely even referenced, but it's actually hugely conflicted with Ash's progress in DP, where beating the Brains should render him nigh-invincible, especially his Pikachu.

 

[Piks]

You continue to argue that somehow, DP felt as if it was ignoring canon much more than BW. However, you have yet to give evidence proving this. In fact, there really is no evidence- with the amount of recurring characters from and references to Ash's past that DP had in comparison to BW, it really is BW that doesn't feel like it catered to canon. We understand that you are a major BW fan. This is no excuse to ignore every piece of evidence that you do not like, nor does it make your opinions fact.

Actually, he faced off against Team Rocket beforehand and got his butt kicked, so he definitely would have had some idea about that. And besides, need I really remind you that Pikachu has attacks that aren't electric type attacks like Iron Tail?



I don't recall any prior incarnation of Ash ever mistaking a human for a Pokémon despite it being pretty obvious even at a quick glance that she isn't one, much less a specific type of Pokémon like Axew.



Actually, each time, they usually make sure to note Ash's current ranking in the Leagues, so it's not even a true fresh start. A REAL Fresh Start would be omitting Ash and Pikachu, heck, JJM as well.

BW's ranking was the same as Johto's and AG's, i really don't think DP's ranking was anymore better. The only reason why he made it to the Top 4 in Sinnoh was because he used his old pokemon instead of just his Sinnoh team..

BW's ranking was the same as Johto's and AG's, i really don't think DP's ranking was anymore better. The only reason why he made it to the Top 4 in Sinnoh was because he used his old pokemon instead of just his Sinnoh team..

BW is canon because Ash have a lots of items in his room from previous journeys, plus he also remebers Charizard from his old Kanto team and he also brought it back on his Unova team,plus Clair also reappear in person during BW saga, this should enough proof BW is canon.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

BW's ranking was the same as Johto's and AG's, i really don't think DP's ranking was anymore better. The only reason why he made it to the Top 4 in Sinnoh was because he used his old pokemon instead of just his Sinnoh team..

It was still a huge improvement especially considering the fact that in AG, he actually stayed at Top 8 instead of, you know, actually increasing his rank. Had I been writing AG, guess what? I'd make absolute certain he advanced to Top 4 just to prove he did in fact improve himself.

Another thing, no, BW's ranking was a decrease. Sure, it is technically the same as Johto and Hoenn's rank, but when he got to Top 4 in the immediate preceding region (not to mention actually noted it as an accomplishment), and then decreased to Top 8, that's showing how bad he actually was. And what makes it worse is that like with Trip, he lost to a guy who he really shouldn't have lost to, since the guy he lost to was a total idiot, making even BW Ash seem smart (like not knowing the Unova League was in the same region as Unova, not knowing he had to register for the league, heck, he didn't even know that he was supposed to register six Pokémon.).

 

[Wobbu]

AG may technically be canon, but it is skippable considering that:

A. Ash basically ended up staying at the same level as in Johto;

B. May got replaced with Dawn only for her to do the kind of goal May was doing anyways;

C. The Battle Frontier not only is barely even referenced, but it's actually hugely conflicted with Ash's progress in DP, where beating the Brains should render him nigh-invincible, especially his Pikachu.

If that's your criteria for the anime, then technically OS is skippable too since Ash's Indigo League performance was his lowest and his Silver League performance is tied for second, and Iris essentially has the same goal as Misty, but for Dragon types instead of Water. Besides, how many people watch the anime just to see Ash's performance in the leagues? The main reason why I enjoyed Best Wishes is because of the great cast of characters and the episodes without any significant events were more entertaining that the episodes of the same kind from previous series. Also, the Vertress Conference actually had some really great matchups and it was nice seeing more focus on other characters than just Ash.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

If that's your criteria for the anime, then technically OS is skippable too since Ash's Indigo League performance was his lowest and his Silver League performance is tied for second, and Iris essentially has the same goal as Misty, but for Dragon types instead of Water. Besides, how many people watch the anime just to see Ash's performance in the leagues? The main reason why I enjoyed Best Wishes is because of the great cast of characters and the episodes without any significant events were more entertaining that the episodes of the same kind from previous series. Also, the Vertress Conference actually had some really great matchups and it was nice seeing more focus on other characters than just Ash.

First of all, the Original Series at least had his starting out as an excuse for Kanto's low run, and besides which, Johto actually showed him improving by getting from Top 16 up to Top 8 (not to mention actually fighting and thus beating his rival there as well as actually losing fairly rather than having victory being stolen from him by Team Rocket), something AG at the very least failed to deliver (Staying at exactly the same rank as in Johto, meaning there was little point to even watching Hoenn at all). Only DP actually came close to actual improvement, and BW basically took AG to the next level and have him bomb the league. And as far as Misty and Iris, it's not the same thing because Iris came into being well after Misty was removed from the show, while with May and Dawn, it literally occurred one after the other. It needs to happen directly, immediately afterwards in order for it to truly qualify.

And considering the anime made clear, even up to DP, that Ash's goal is to be a Pokémon Master (heck, DP even elaborated further on how to get there by explicitly mentioning Ash had to beat the Elite 4 and regional Champ to actually achieve the goal, something that wasn't mentioned at all beforehand), Ash is pretty much the main focus, and all of that, yes, the focus of the show IS supposed to be about Ash's goal. While it is indeed nice to focus on other characters besides Ash for a change, it doesn't change the fact that his goal is still supposed to be the primary focus.

 

[mishy.]

Honestly, who says that he has to go higher every time, especially to make it "canon"? Every series is canon. You can take his development is any way imaginable or with any interpretation but the point is it happened during his journey. Personally, him going down in ranking was neat (although believe me when I say I hated the BW league myself) because it shows that it's not a straight road to the top. You will fall sometimes, but if you keep going you will get past that and go forward. Get closer to your goal. This is why Ash says at the end 'I think I've gotten one step closer to become a Pokemon Master' because he still grew as a person which when it all comes down to it matters far more than just ranks.

 

[Trickori]

I'm actually really enjoying best wishes despite it's flaws. My boyfriend and I are watching it for the first time and in Japanese so I'm not sure where the fan service issue comes into play with Dent -- he just uses a lot if English.

The only issue I have with the show is Ash's inconsistent character-- one minute he's an actual character and the next he's an insufferable, body checking Mary-Sue.

I may not be far enough in the series yet but I find the lack of Team Plasma particularly disappointing. Why is Ghetsis letting Team Rocket run amok on his terf? :/

 

[Famon]

I heard a rumor about Digimon Adventure 02 being Cut off in New Digimon Adventure series for being a Messed Up Series .
I Wish Pokemon Best Wishs could have been Cut off because its even biggest Mess Up then Digimon Adventure 02.

As You know , XY Series getting Bad Rating compare to another new series at the beginning Despite the Positive review.
Does Anyone know Why ? Because--
--AG & DP series ended with a OP version of Ash So Fans were excited to see that OP Version of Ash at a new region.
However BW Series started with a Pathetic version of Ash & Ended with a Pathetic Version of Ash So Fans weren't excited about the New Series.

If The Series want better ranking then its need to make Fan Excited ! The Show need to give them higher Expectation and make them believe that Ash can win the League this time.

 

[Garchomp]

We're really trying to debate whether one is more canon? As much as I didn't like BW, it's still canon. I wish it wasn't, but it is canon, and trying to "prove that it is canon" by saying DP "might not be canon" is silly.

BW is canon because Ash have a lots of items in his room from previous journeys, plus he also remebers Charizard from his old Kanto team and he also brought it back on his Unova team,plus Clair also reappear in person during BW saga, this should enough proof BW is canon.

He had plenty of items from his previous journeys, notably the Misty special lure, plus he also brought back old pokes like Sceptile, Donphan, Glalie, etc., plus Jasmine also reappeared in person during DP saga, so what's your point?

I'm actually really enjoying best wishes despite it's flaws. My boyfriend and I are watching it for the first time and in Japanese so I'm not sure where the fan service issue comes into play with Dent -- he just uses a lot if English.

The only issue I have with the show is Ash's inconsistent character-- one minute he's an actual character and the next he's an insufferable, body checking Mary-Sue.

I may not be far enough in the series yet but I find the lack of Team Plasma particularly disappointing. Why is Ghetsis letting Team Rocket run amok on his terf? :/

Spoiler alert! Open if you dare!

Spoiler:

N appears in BW109, but the actual Team Plasma doesn't start appearing until BW117, as disappointing as that sounds.

 

[Trickori]

Spoiler alert! Open if you dare!

I dared to look at the spoiler and I am both happy and very sad :/. Oh well at least I have Dent and Kibago <3.

 

[Piks]

You continue to argue that somehow, DP felt as if it was ignoring canon much more than BW. However, you have yet to give evidence proving this. In fact, there really is no evidence- with the amount of recurring characters from and references to Ash's past that DP had in comparison to BW, it really is BW that doesn't feel like it catered to canon. We understand that you are a major BW fan. This is no excuse to ignore every piece of evidence that you do not like, nor does it make your opinions fact.

We're really trying to debate whether one is more canon? As much as I didn't like BW, it's still canon. I wish it wasn't, but it is canon, and trying to "prove that it is canon" by saying DP "might not be canon" is silly.



He had plenty of items from his previous journeys, notably the Misty special lure, plus he also brought back old pokes like Sceptile, Donphan, Glalie, etc., plus Jasmine also reappeared in person during DP saga, so what's your point?



Spoiler alert! Open if you dare!

Spoiler:

N appears in BW109, but the actual Team Plasma doesn't start appearing until BW117, as disappointing as that sounds.

My point is BW canon like any other series. I am glad that it's canon and the only series wise was non canon is DP, BW might not have been perfect but atleast it did allow Ash to have more Pokemon on his Unova team, other then that it was an interesting series.

BW OP version of Ash was a lot more better since i'm sure fans enjoy this version a lot more better then the DP OP version of Ash. I wise DP series was cut off because it wasn't any better are different from any other series and DP had a lot of flaws that makes it a mess up series.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

My point is BW canon like any other series. I am glad that it's canon and the only series wise was non canon is DP, BW might not have been perfect but atleast it did allow Ash to have more Pokemon on his Unova team, other then that it was an interesting series.

BW OP version of Ash was a lot more better since i'm sure fans enjoy this version a lot more better then the DP OP version of Ash. I wise DP series was cut off because it wasn't any better are different from any other series and DP had a lot of flaws that makes it a mess up series.

Actually, BW had even more flaws. Heck, BW Ash was actually HATED by a lot of people, enough that XY Ash was even listed under "Rescued from the Scrappy Heap" on TVTropes.

Heck, they skipped over the World Conference from B2W2 even though it would have given the writers the perfect opportunity to actually give Misty closure at the very least, if not bring her back to the main cast.

They also butchered Team Plasma.

And Ash came across as extremely idiotic, even by his usual standards. I mean honestly, when he loses against a trainer who was literally starting out (and before you even begin to blame Zekrom for this, let me remind you that Pikachu still has Iron Tail meaning even IF Pikachu lost its electricity, he could still use Iron Tail to win against Snivley), and actually loses in the leagues to someone who is a total idiot, what else can be said about it.

 

[Garchomp]

My point is BW canon like any other series. I am glad that it's canon and the only series wise was non canon is DP, BW might not have been perfect but atleast it did allow Ash to have more Pokemon on his Unova team, other then that it was an interesting series.

BW OP version of Ash was a lot more better since i'm sure fans enjoy this version a lot more better then the DP OP version of Ash. I wise DP series was cut off because it wasn't any better are different from any other series and DP had a lot of flaws that makes it a mess up series.

BW is as canon as DP is as canon as AG is as canon as OS... Not really sure who is trying to argue something as simple as this.

Just because he caught more pokemon than any other series, it makes BW better? Okay?

BW really is no different than DP, AG, or OS; it's the exact same formulaic series only altering a couple of variables.

I dared to look at the spoiler and I am both happy and very sad :/. Oh well at least I have Dent and Kibago <3.

Wait until you get to the league...

 

[Aquacorde]

My point is that you can not argue that BW is canon while insisting DP is not. You may like BW and not DP, but your opinion is not going to change the fact that both are canon. Repeating yourself over and over is also not helping your case and turns this thread into a boring circular argument. I am henceforth going to straight up ignore your argument, since it makes zero sense. If you would like to defend BW I am all ears; I did enjoy the series despite its flaws. But please, argue something that can't be disproved in less than a sentence.

 

[Piks]

As much as i hate to admit it DP is canon just like BW. But i don't buy this ******** that BW Ash is hated by a lot of people because it is only a matter of opinions not facts, besides the fact DP Ash wasn't anybetter or any different then the BW Ash since they both were pretty much the same, i'm pretty sure DP had a whole lot of flaws aswell, it wasn't a perfect series and people need to stop acting like it was.

My argument do make a lot of sense weather you believe it or not.

Team Plasma were still great villians but they could have appear in more then 6 episodes.