Chit-Chat: Challenges Ideas & Discussion

[Reginald Cosmic]

I've completed four monotype challenges as part of a "Game Mastery" run, and I'm trying to think of a different challenge to take on.

Does anyone know the quirks of a "no evolution" challenge in Pokemon Sapphire Version (GBA)? I can't think of anything that get in the way like the time someone did "shiny Pokemon only" in LGP&E and got to the Fuchsia City Gym where you can't progress without enough PokeDex fodder However, does anyone know if Pokemon who can't evolve (like Skarmory) are allowed? To be clear, I was thinking the rule for myself would be first stage Pokemon only, but then... what about Pikachu? Pikachu used to be unevolved in Gen I, so I guess he'd be off limits(?). Does anyone have any advice?

For that matter, will I be eligible for the hall of fame after one more challenge? The monotype challenges I've completed were all technically part of one "Game Mastery" challenge except for the first one (which was before I got my eyes set on that prize).

 

[mistypalms]

Hi! I'm new here, made an account because I got interested in romhacks, but I also did a neat challenge run in Scarlet recently which as far as I've been able to tell, I don't think this specific idea has shown up anywhere else so I'm leaving it here for people to play with/do what they want:

Pokemon Airplane Mode
The idea was based on the fact that a reasonable way to get from real life Spain to real life Japan, the places the main game and DLC part 1 are based on, would be to fly on a plane (when I came up with this idea I had not played the DLC and didn't know that you actually literally fly on a plane to get from Paldea to Kitakami and Blueberry Academy), and theoretically, you could restrict yourself to only a carry-on for said flight. Looking into it, japanese airlines have a limit of 10kg or about 22lbs for a carry-on, so the challenge is that your entire party, including boxed pokemon, must weigh in total no more than 22lbs. When you catch or evolve a pokemon that brings you above this limit, you have to release one of your pokemon, although it doesn't have to be the one that you just caught or evolved.

This is an incredibly restrictive limit for Pokemon, but I have verified that it is possible to make it through the entire main story of the main game and get to Kitakami with a team weighing under 22lbs, and I documented that journey on a discord server with some friends. I can share some screenshots from that in limited form here if that's of interest to folks but obviously I talk a lot about the weight of the pokemon I catch so like, massive spoilers for people interested in doing one of these runs. I didn't play with permadeath or anything because releasing Pokemon that put me over the limit was already a rough enough time emotionally, and needing to primarily use weak/unevolved Pokemon meant that even without permadeath there was a substantial challenge. You could try this with permadeath though.

I looked up the weight of a few pokemon before starting just to make sure I could get ANY pokemon under 22lbs, but after that I was playing blind as the spirit of the challenge for me was that each catch or evolution was a tough decision and an extremely tense moment, wondering if this would be goodbye or a massive powerup to my buddy. Similarly, I wasn't catching repeat pokemon since once you catch one, you can look up its weight in the pokedex and make an informed decision about whether it would overload your team or not.

I stopped doing my run once I made it to Kitakami out of kindness to a few of my pokemon that had been struggling really hard past about level 50 and because I wanted to experience the DLC story for the first time without worrying about the challenge, but if I were to do this again I would definitely want to keep going through the entire DLC, especially given that in the Blueberry Academy story there's a part that kinda forces you to shake up your team a little so you can't really keep one team the entire way through. And in the fiction of the run, anytime you're traveling from one region to another you're taking a plane so the carry-on rule still applies.

Some potential variations or ideas to add to this:

• As mentioned, permadeath
• Try with other games! I'd be fascinated to see how it goes with something like the gen 4 games, or romhacks even!
• A friend suggested having a region-specific reserve, as in pokemon that exceed the weight limit but can only be used in the region where you caught them, so I could use a haxorus or something but only in paldea since that's where I caught it
• If you REALLY want to stick with the idea of a carry-on weight limit, clear your bag of all items before each time you travel between regions and start fresh in the new region
• Try keeping your starter on your team for as long as possible

I've put a lot of thought into this, but it truly is a space for people to play in and share ideas about, which is why I've posted it as a discussion rather than a challenge. If someone else wanted to start it up as a challenge, I would have no problem with that, and if folks just want to throw out ideas to make it more interesting, I'd love to hear them!

 

[Reginald Cosmic]

I know this is way late, but I want to ask now that the admins' have had time from the forum migration.

Have badges been completely removed? Is there any point posting in the "Hall of Fame" thread now?

 

[cloa513]

Animelocke

I thought of these rules: Capture any six pokemon in wild and starter (no legendaries etc because they above humans )- no pokecomputer use.
No pokecentre healing because it is a hospital and your pokemon is
No item etc use in battle. No limit outside battle
Fainting and loss of all PP is basically serious injury and you in mourning so game over..
Play the game in one go with no saving. No experience share. No other limits.
I think a mod to gain health and PP over time would be fine.
Would it work with your favourtie Pokemon game assuming the experience share is rejectable requirement ?

 

[Eleanor]

I know this is way late, but I want to ask now that the admins' have had time from the forum migration.

Have badges been completely removed? Is there any point posting in the "Hall of Fame" thread now?

Hello, and sorry for the very late response.
There is currently no badge system as we know it in XenForo and we have been having some discussions about if and how how to implement one - unfortunately it will still take some time.

That said, you can still post your achievements in the Hall of Fame thread and record your progress as usual, and you could still have a link to your Hall of Fame post in your signature. That's how the thread has always worked in the first place!

 

[cloa513]

I tried Animelock on Pokemon Fire Red- you just have use Bulbasaur with Pirdgey and Pikachu for seeding wild Metapod and Kakunas to level up all three. Bulbasur has to get Level 12 at Onix to make his limited vinewhips count. Of course the game is brutally grindy and makes me certainly wish I know how to use mods to speed it up.

 

[Reginald Cosmic]

Is there a way to get a thread for the "No Evolution" challenge? I'd be willing to moderate it, but I feel like I'd be too lenient with what counts as an unevolved Pokemon because some Pokemon are elligble in earlier games but not later ones where they gave it a baby Pokemon, or perhaps they gave it an evolved form (as I've heard there are rules banning unevolved Pokemon that do not evolve if their Base Stat Total is 400).

In Gen I, Pikachu was considered unevolved because out-of-universe Pichu had yet to be created and in-universe, Professor Oak didn't know breeding was a thing. In Gen III Kanto (and moreso Gen 7 Kanto though more obviously), this becomes murky because it's the same game as RBY (except with monumentally improved mechanics and also Magnemite/Magneton are part steel-type now) to the point where you can't catch anything outside the 151 without completing a section of the post game, which (thanks to Gen II) means some Pokemon would be inelligible because of baby Pokemon. In-universe no one in Kanto knows about Pichu, and out-of-universe, you are excluding Pokemon like Pikachu and Clefairy in a game that already suffers from a lack of variety due to the aforementioned original 151 limitation.

I do, however, think pre-evolutions should not be retroactive unless the Pokemon in question has a BST of (what was it?) 400 or more. This goes hand-in-hand with the rule I've heard that Pokemon that do not evolve from or into any Pokemon are only elligble with less than 400 BST. Pokemon like Hitmonlee (in Gen I), Tauros, and especially Snorlax (in Gen III Kanto) are too tough for a "no evolution" challenge. Likewise, most legendary Pokemon should be disallowed as well since (outside of Cosmog), they pretty much all have a BST much higher than 400.

I think it might be easier to discount any baby Pokemon inaccessible until post game (if at all, eg, Gen 7 Kanto doesn't have Pichu, Cleffa, etc. in any capacity whatsoever). As a general rule of thumb "No legendary mon. If it can evolve in the game you are playing but hasn't, it's fair game. If its pre-evolution is a baby Pokemon and cannot be caught anywhere prior to seeing the credits for the first time, it's fair game as long as its BST is lower than 400 in Gen II onwards (or the "no special split" equivalent in Gen I).

So in short, what does everyone think of a "no evolution (with an asterisk)" challenge thread?

 

[Explorer of Time]

Is there a way to get a thread for the "No Evolution" challenge? I'd be willing to moderate it, but I feel like I'd be too lenient with what counts as an unevolved Pokemon because some Pokemon are elligble in earlier games but not later ones where they gave it a baby Pokemon, or perhaps they gave it an evolved form (as I've heard there are rules banning unevolved Pokemon that do not evolve if their Base Stat Total is 400).

So in short, what does everyone think of a "no evolution (with an asterisk)" challenge thread?

I think it's a great idea. As for the specifics...

In Gen I, Pikachu was considered unevolved because out-of-universe Pichu had yet to be created and in-universe, Professor Oak didn't know breeding was a thing. In Gen III Kanto (and moreso Gen 7 Kanto though more obviously), this becomes murky because it's the same game as RBY (except with monumentally improved mechanics and also Magnemite/Magneton are part steel-type now) to the point where you can't catch anything outside the 151 without completing a section of the post game, which (thanks to Gen II) means some Pokemon would be inelligible because of baby Pokemon. In-universe no one in Kanto knows about Pichu, and out-of-universe, you are excluding Pokemon like Pikachu and Clefairy in a game that already suffers from a lack of variety due to the aforementioned original 151 limitation.

I would use the same rule as in the monotype challenge, "the in-game content determines which Pokemon qualify". As an example, Pichu would count as the base form of the Raichu line in most games, while Pikachu would count as the base form in games that only have Gen 1 Pokemon. (Pikachu, Clefairy, and Jigglypuff should get an exemption to count as unevolved in FRLG because those games don't make their baby Pokemon available until after beating the game, though.) Similarly, Pokemon that don't evolve in the game being played would not qualify. (e.g. Tangela would be allowed in anything starting from Gen IV, but not in Gen 1, 2 or 3.)

Likewise, most legendary Pokemon should be disallowed as well since (outside of Cosmog), they pretty much all have a BST much higher than 400.

For legendaries, I would also allow Poipole and Kubfu. Type: Null would be too powerful to put in a pre-evo team though.

 

[Reginald Cosmic]

I'm glad you like the idea, and I'm glad we agree about Pikachu, Clefairy, and Jigglypuff.

Should the rule about Pokemon that cannot evolve (like Tauros) be a hard rule (with few exceptions like Gen 7's Salandit which can only evolve if it's female)? Now that I'm thinking about it again, I guess the 400 BST rule is too subjective. I was just going by what a friend told me about the challenge.

EDIT: How does one go about drafting such a thread anyway? Should I discuss the wording of the specifics here or in private with the mods? I don't plan to create it too soon as I'd like to finish my first "no evolution" challenge in Gen 3 Kanto first. On that note, I have never beaten Coliseum or played Gale of Darkness, so I don't really know how to apply this challenge to those games. There's other problems like my lack of experience with Gen 4 games (outside of the improvement hack Renegade Platinum), but I'd be fine moderating the thread if no one else wants to start it.

 

[Explorer of Time]

Should the rule about Pokemon that cannot evolve (like Tauros) be a hard rule (with few exceptions like Gen 7's Salandit which can only evolve if it's female)? Now that I'm thinking about it again, I guess the 400 BST rule is too subjective. I was just going by what a friend told me about the challenge.

I would make it a hard rule with exceptions for gender-locked evolutions and regional-form locked evolutions. In the official games, this would be male Combee and Salandit for gender exemptions, and ordinary Farfetch'd, Corsola, Linoone, and Qwilfish for regional exemptions.

EDIT: How does one go about drafting such a thread anyway? Should I discuss the wording of the specifics here or in private with the mods? I don't plan to create it too soon as I'd like to finish my first "no evolution" challenge in Gen 3 Kanto first.

I would make a first draft based off challenge threads that other people make. Yours doesn't have to be quite as complicated as mine, since I like to make sure I have all my edge cases covered in advance. We mods have to approve your thread once you post it, and if there are any problems with the draft, we'll just let you know so you can edit it before approving it. Don't put images of team members in your Challenger/Hall of Fame listings, though; they'll cause problems with the forum software when there are too many images.

On that note, I have never beaten Coliseum or played Gale of Darkness, so I don't really know how to apply this challenge to those games.

XD would be pretty easy to apply this challenge to since there's a lot of base forms catchable in the early game. Colosseum would be a bit trickier since there are only five unevolved Pokemon catchable at all. For the sake of letting people have a full team, I'd allow the six catchable mid-stages in Colosseum as well; Bayleef, Croconaw, Quilava, Skiploom, Flaaffy, and Vibrava. (You could also allow Pidgeotto and Weepinbell in XD on the basis that you can't get Bellsprout or Pidgey in the game.)

 

[Reginald Cosmic]

I feel like Mega Evolution (unless Z-A changes something) is a "no go" ... for reasons established earlier... but also I should probably clarify (in the Gen 6 and Gen 7 specific rules) that Kangaskhan is not permitted in Gen 6 and Gen 7 because Mega Evolution doesn't count as Kangaskhan having an evolution. The same can be said for Absol (though Absol is ... not that good without the Mega Evolution, I think?). As for Dynamax and Gigantimax... should either of those count? I feel like Gigantamax shouldn't be allowed for the associated Pokemon of Pikachu, Eevee, and Meowth. Dynamax, in general, just feels like it shouldn't be allowed for a "no evolution" challenge, but I don't... know of a precedent. I think we can agree Tera Types should be allowed, right? I also think Z Moves should be okay (even if Eevee gets help from evolved Pokemon).

Actually, something crossed my mind today. Does the move "beat up" affect eligibility. I've NEVER had a Pokemon in one of my challenges learn Beat Up, so I'm not familiar with the move outside of Sword & Shield... Did I see it in BW and SV? I don't remember. The point is that non-eligible Pokemon would technically affect the power of that move if they're in the party (eg, if I have three Zigzagoon in a non-Normal-monotype challenge, or an HM Linoone and an HM Tropius in a "no evolution" challenge, Beat Up's power goes up).

 

[Explorer of Time]

I feel like Mega Evolution (unless Z-A changes something) is a "no go" ... for reasons established earlier... but also I should probably clarify (in the Gen 6 and Gen 7 specific rules) that Kangaskhan is not permitted in Gen 6 and Gen 7 because Mega Evolution doesn't count as Kangaskhan having an evolution. The same can be said for Absol (though Absol is ... not that good without the Mega Evolution, I think?). As for Dynamax and Gigantimax... should either of those count? I feel like Gigantamax shouldn't be allowed for the associated Pokemon of Pikachu, Eevee, and Meowth. Dynamax, in general, just feels like it shouldn't be allowed for a "no evolution" challenge, but I don't... know of a precedent. I think we can agree Tera Types should be allowed, right? I also think Z Moves should be okay (even if Eevee gets help from evolved Pokemon).

I agree that Tera Types should be allowed, and Pokemon that Mega Evolve shouldn't be allowed. I personally would disagree on Dynamax and Gigantamax, since neither power-up is in any way related to evolution. Plus, when else but an NFE challenge are players actually going to get the chance to use Gigantamax Pikachu, Eevee, and Meowth?

Actually, something crossed my mind today. Does the move "beat up" affect eligibility. I've NEVER had a Pokemon in one of my challenges learn Beat Up, so I'm not familiar with the move outside of Sword & Shield... Did I see it in BW and SV? I don't remember. The point is that non-eligible Pokemon would technically affect the power of that move if they're in the party (eg, if I have three Zigzagoon in a non-Normal-monotype challenge, or an HM Linoone and an HM Tropius in a "no evolution" challenge, Beat Up's power goes up).

Beat Up isn't that good of a move, and in any case, boosting it with strong Pokemon you can't use is generally much worse than actually using all of your party slots. Under Gen 5+ mechanics, it can only get a total base power of 104.5 or lower, and even that is through having a School Form Wishiwashi use it with five unfainted Kartana in the party. In a normal playthrough, it won't be any better than a total base power of around 75 or so even if the entire team is made up of physical sweepers, so hardly game breaking.

In Gen 2/3/4, it takes your Pokemon's level into account, but the Pokemon you use for HMs and stuff will almost always be much weaker than the team members you actually use in battle, and the base power for each strike is only 10. The only reason to use it in Gen 3 or 4 is to get a ~46% flinch chance from the King's Rock or Razor Fang, or deal typeless damage to Shedinja, neither of which need you to have the attacks actually be strong. I wouldn't bother banning it.

 

[Reginald Cosmic]

I agree that Tera Types should be allowed, and Pokemon that Mega Evolve shouldn't be allowed. I personally would disagree on Dynamax and Gigantamax, since neither power-up is in any way related to evolution. Plus, when else but an NFE challenge are players actually going to get the chance to use Gigantamax Pikachu, Eevee, and Meowth?

I actually didn't have strong feelings about it one way or the other. I'll allow it.

That said, I'm kind of surprised you think people (especially kids who don't care about stats) wouldn't use the Gigantamax Pikachu or Gigantamax Eevee. The forum would be kind of biased towards users who care about stats, (I understand things don't happen in a vacuum), but there's probably a reasonable number of adults who saw the giant old-school Pikachu design and used it all throughout the game in a casual playthrough. (I guess this is more of a tangent than an actual debate on the rulings.)

Fair points on "beat up" I guess. I just thought I'd ask.

What about the technicality of FRLG's post game and "Elite Four Round 2" regarding Pikachu, Clefairy, and Jigglypuff? The end point would be the first instance of the credits, so "Elite Four, Round 2" is more of a victory lap, but should I put that in the rules, or just explain it to anyone who asks about it?

I've started the draft, and I will be continuing it tonight.

 

[Explorer of Time]

What about the technicality of FRLG's post game and "Elite Four Round 2" regarding Pikachu, Clefairy, and Jigglypuff? The end point would be the first instance of the credits, so "Elite Four, Round 2" is more of a victory lap, but should I put that in the rules, or just explain it to anyone who asks about it?

I'd continue the exemptions even if their pre-evos are available once the player reaches Four Island (or slightly earlier via trade). Players shouldn't have to permabox Pokemon just for the postgame.

 

[Reginald Cosmic]

I'm continuing the draft. Is Legends Arceus eligible? I haven't played that game, but I was under the impression it had an emphasis on filling out the PokéDex to get to the credits.

Do the mods want the "Ultimate Run" challenge included?

I also really need help with guidelines for fan games when I submit a rough draft of the guidelines. I'm not sure I'll be able to answer questions there without reading the documentation ahead of someone's challenge. I also need a list of the fan games that have been permanently delisted from this forumgrounds. I also don't really want to allow randomizers because I feel the rulings for those would require paragraphs upon paragraphs of technicalities and explanations.

Side note: I'm also unclear on what you meant about Farfetch'd, Corsola, and Qwilfish. Are you saying the ordinary forms of those Pokemon should be allowed? (Eg, Kantoan Farfetch'd would be allowed in Galar despite the fact it can't evolve) I also think you were mistaken about Hoenn (Hoennite?) Linoone. It's an evolved Mon anyway, so even in Galar, it wouldn't be allowed (only Zigzagoon).

 

[Explorer of Time]

I'm continuing the draft. Is Legends Arceus eligible? I haven't played that game, but I was under the impression it had an emphasis on filling out the PokéDex to get to the credits.

I don't see any reason why not, but it shouldn't count as a Sinnoh game for the Ultimate Challenge assuming you include it.

Do the mods want the "Ultimate Run" challenge included?

We'd prefer it, but we recommend that you leave the Switch games as optional since a lot of people (myself included) don't have them all.

I also really need help with guidelines for fan games when I submit a rough draft of the guidelines. I'm not sure I'll be able to answer questions there without reading the documentation ahead of someone's challenge.

Fan games don't get challenged very often, so don't worry about them unless you actually get challengers for them. The NFE challenge is much simpler than a monotype challenge for fangame-related stuff anyway, since you almost always start out with an unevolved starter.

I also need a list of the fan games that have been permanently delisted from this forumgrounds.

This isn't something you need to worry about. We on the mod team will take care of it ourselves if people try to challenge rulebreaking fangames.

I also don't really want to allow randomizers because I feel the rulings for those would require paragraphs upon paragraphs of technicalities and explanations.

That's completely understandable.

Side note: I'm also unclear on what you meant about Farfetch'd, Corsola, and Qwilfish. Are you saying the ordinary forms of those Pokemon should be allowed? (Eg, Kantoan Farfetch'd would be allowed in Galar despite the fact it can't evolve) I also think you were mistaken about Hoenn (Hoennite?) Linoone. It's an evolved Mon anyway, so even in Galar, it wouldn't be allowed (only Zigzagoon).

I would allow Kantonian Farfetch'd, for example, and I did make an error for Linoone, which I apologize for.

 

[Reginald Cosmic]

I wrote a complete draft of the ruleset, and I will be completing my "no evolution" challenge soon. (I have all eight badges in FRLG and will be making my way through Victory Road soon.) Where do you want me to submit the draft for the time being?

 

[Explorer of Time]

I wrote a complete draft of the ruleset, and I will be completing my "no evolution" challenge soon. (I have all eight badges in FRLG and will be making my way through Victory Road soon.) Where do you want me to submit the draft for the time being?

Just post it. Challenge threads in this forum end up in a moderation queue for us to approve, and I'll just PM you to let you know to edit the post if there are any glaring issues, though I'll probably approve it immediately.