Coming Out

[Taemin]

I'm just saying that there's a world of difference between a bullied teenager from an abusive conservative family coming out, and a celebrity coming out on the Oprah Show the day their biography comes out...

There will always be the people who support others who come out as gay, but there's also a large number of people who'll want to throw stones at them. Yeah, it's definitely easier to come out when you know you're in a room of people who'll agree with you, and cheer you on, but outside of that room and after the crowds leave you're still opening yourself up to a lot of hate. That's what makes it a big deal, unfortunately. -o-

 

[Mana1]

With regards to celebrities coming out, I noticed that a lot of people mentioned that we should applaud the bravery that it takes for them to come out as gay. Let's just stop for a moment and ask ourselves: does it take any bravery to come as gay out to the public these days? Coming out is brave when you have a drunken fundamentalist stepfather with a criminal record. Coming out is hardly brave when you're coming out to a decidedly pro-gay pop culture and media where if you come out you're treated as a pretty much a hero. I'm not trying to belittle them or their experience. I'm just saying that there's a world of difference between a bullied teenager from an abusive conservative family coming out, and a celebrity coming out on the Oprah Show the day their biography comes out...

Potentially. As a celebrity your wages are from your fans - if you lose the homophobic ones, it could have an affect on your future career. With that in mind, I would consider it brave.

From my point of view, it is always important for celebrities to come out. Why? It makes the people who do not normally experience gay people have a bit of a reality check. If a beloved singer or actor, who they've followed for years, comes out then that is pretty symbolic of the 'it's normal' 'could be anyone' style of thinking.

Some of the children I work with are still very closeminded about gay rights. Of course, as a whole generation they're probably the most accepting we've ever had - but there are many individuals who are still lost in the old way of thinking.

I also think a lot of celebrities 'come out', just so they don't get outed by the press. In the case of Tom Daley, the diver, speculations have been made for a long time and he has been actively pursued by paparazzi gathering 'evidence'. Coming out was the only way to take control of the situation, from my eyes.

 

[Star-Lord]

So, here's what I think. I think the gay community needs to stop preaching acceptance, and start preaching mind your own business. That is, what two consenting adults do in privacy is no one's business, and therefore there's not even any need for you to accept it, because it bears no relevance to you.

The problem I have, and while I do understand the feelings where people are coming from with this, I think they're perfectly misguided at the same time. Consider the fact that gay people aren't shown in popular media nearly as much as straight people are. How are we supposed to show people that our society is ok with what they do and who they are unless we preach acceptance? The problem with telling gay people (or any marginilized group for that matter) that "you don't care", means, well, you don't care. Telling straight people that "it isn't your business", while it isn't, doesn't show why it isn't their business and that it's an acceptable lifestyle. How is telling people that you simply don't care supposed to be beneficial? You're taking a group that has historically had problems even trying to be taken seriously and then just sort of pushing them off to the side into their little corner, whether intentionally or not, and that's where the problem lies.

Right now the impression that I get is that the LGBT is saying, rather than "it's none of your business", it's saying "it is your business, but I want you to be okay with it". I could be wrong, but that's just the impression I get.

I'd say your impression is spot-on actually. Wait, no, I read it again and it's rather "It's not your business who we sleep with, but it is also important for you guys to know that we exist and that it's a totally healthy lifestyle."

With regards to celebrities coming out, I noticed that a lot of people mentioned that we should applaud the bravery that it takes for them to come out as gay. Let's just stop for a moment and ask ourselves: does it take any bravery to come as gay out to the public these days? Coming out is brave when you have a drunken fundamentalist stepfather with a criminal record. Coming out is hardly brave when you're coming out to a decidedly pro-gay pop culture and media where if you come out you're treated as a pretty much a hero. I'm not trying to belittle them or their experience. I'm just saying that there's a world of difference between a bullied teenager from an abusive conservative family coming out, and a celebrity coming out on the Oprah Show the day their biography comes out...

I can only speak from my own experiences with this - but I grew up in a very liberal household where I knew I would be accepted immediately if I came out to my father or my mother. Even so, I was rightfully terrified of coming out to them all the same. Does it make sense? Maybe not, but our world and emotions don't make sense sometimes. There was still an incredible anxiety, my heart beating, when I came out to my father and my sister. Those are only two people who are close to me, I cannot imagine having your sexuality on display to be critiqued or talked about by the entire world. Your sexuality is a very private thing, and I think it's brave to tell anybody when it's something other than heterosexual.

Just food for thought.

 

[LaVida]

I think it's unfair that gay and bisexual people have to come out while heterosexuals do not need to go through this.

I consider coming out to be something really private. To some extent, I even think that it's unnecessary. Well, in my case at least. I'm a bi girl in a straight relationship so I don't see a point in coming out to e.g. my parents at this moment. If I were in a relationship with a girl, this would be a different story. I'd tell my parents that I'm with a girl and might add the fact that I'm bisexual. But I would never come out to them without having a reason (like a girlfriend) or without being asked. The only people I have come out to is my boyfriend (obvious, duh) and friends who I talked to about this topic (and who are LGBT as well). Also, I like to correct people if they assume I'm straight.

I think every person has to decide whether s/he wants to come out. If somebody feels that it's necessary to tell certain people, then it's their business and it's ok. I personally just don't see the reason to tell anyone without the topic coming up... if you know what I mean.

With celebrities it's a little different as many celebs act as idols for many people. If a lot of celebrities come out people might start to open up about this topic and be more accepting. I look up to celebrities like Ellen Page who are brave enough to come out.

 

[Nick]

So, here's what I think. I think the gay community needs to stop preaching acceptance, and start preaching mind your own business. That is, what two consenting adults do in privacy is no one's business, and therefore there's not even any need for you to accept it, because it bears no relevance to you. Right now the impression that I get is that the LGBT is saying, rather than "it's none of your business", it's saying "it is your business, but I want you to be okay with it". I could be wrong, but that's just the impression I get.

I think its more of wanting to be accepted and loved by the people they care about for who they are. We don't live in a culture very accepting of homosexuality.

 

[Dakotah]

All humans instinctively seek out acceptance from others. As a species we don't handle rejection very well. Coming out, for those of us in the LGBT community, is, in part, a type of test, to see if the people in our lives that we care about can openly accept us for who we are regardless of our sexual orientation. Some of us are lucky in that our families and friends not only accept us but also those we choose to bring into our lives and hopefully someday welcome into the family. But, sadly, in far too many instances this is not the case. And because of this we so many teens abused by their families, kicked out into the streets and further victimized by a system that does not recognize the struggles these youths face every day. For the LGBT community, coming out is an often dangerous, life-altering decision.

 

[Star-Lord]

All humans instinctively seek out acceptance from others. As a species we don't handle rejection very well. Coming out, for those of us in the LGBT community, is, in part, a type of test, to see if the people in our lives that we care about can openly accept us for who we are regardless of our sexual orientation. Some of us are lucky in that our families and friends not only accept us but also those we choose to bring into our lives and hopefully someday welcome into the family. But, sadly, in far too many instances this is not the case. And because of this we so many teens abused by their families, kicked out into the streets and further victimized by a system that does not recognize the struggles these youths face every day. For the LGBT community, coming out is an often dangerous, life-altering decision.

I love how you recognize this yet argue the fact that "coming out" should be used as a term for trivial things in comparison.

 

[Dakotah]

I love how you recognize this yet argue the fact that "coming out" should be used as a term for trivial things in comparison.

As I stated before, the LGBT community does not own the phrase "coming out." Also what you might find trivial could in fact be a very big deal to someone else.

 

[Star-Lord]

As I stated before, the LGBT community does not own the phrase "coming out." Also what you might find trivial could in fact be a very big deal to someone else.

/sigh

Ok I'll bite. I'll return to the first post that made me upset.

In essence, everyone comes out in life. We come out to our friends and family when we begin seeing someone romantically, we come out when we get new jobs. We come out when we completed a project. Coming out isn't just about revealing one's sexual orientation, it's also about inviting others to share in the joy in our lives, no matter what that might be. We come out every day for one reason or another.

Reiterating on something that is "A very big deal to someone else" I'll use a personal example. I recently scored 100 on an in-class final for political science because my essay topic was an analysis on the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Am I excited? ♥♥♥♥ yeah I'm excited, it's a topic I've been studying for about 3 years now and it's a massive deal for me to do so well on it because I take a huge amount of pride in my academics. Am I "Coming out" and sharing the news that I did so well? No, because like I said, it's a huge deal for me but it's ultimately trivial because why should society care that some nineteen year old kid did well on his final? I am not "coming out". To apply the term "coming out" to something like that is silly.

Does that even matter? Are we so stuck up that only we in the LGBT community can use that term?

It's not a matter about being stuck up or not. It's a matter of making sure that the term isn't devalued through trivialization.

We would be hypocrites then because we also have been accused of using terms that were previously associated with other struggles.

I'm actually interested on this point. Mind sharing these terms?

My point was that in every day life we make choices that carries certain risks. They may seem trivial to others, but the process by which a person reveals something private about themselves to another can be just as frightening, just as risky, and just as potentially rewarding as a gay youth coming out to his or her family and friends. Unlike you I don't try to compare the risks. I just accept them and try to be as supportive as I can to everyone who shares something personal with me.

I'm actually not trying to compare the risks. You're very hung up on the fact that I like to turn things into a "boohoo contest" (for a lack of a better term) even though I don't believe that at all. My point is that using the term "coming out" for something that doesn't involve sexual orientation/gender identity is harmful because we already have sociological contexts for this term and we shouldn't erase that because gay/transgendered people are already a minority and shouldn't be marginalized further.

Because you made a comparison between someone coming out as gay to a guy saying they are dating a certain girl. Both actions carry risks, but you elevated the risk for the person coming out as gay over the person saying they are dating a certain girl.

That's reaching to the highest degree. My point was "Straight people (for the most part since you brought up honor killings) don't have to be afraid of sharing their partner to their parents/family in comparison to gay people." That didn't mean that I was advocating that we turned our struggles into a "struggle contest" whatsoever.

 

[Dakotah]

It's not a matter about being stuck up or not. It's a matter of making sure that the term isn't devalued through trivialization.

And this is pretty humorous since the LGBT community has been continuously accused of trying to steal the word "marriage" from heterosexuals. And now you're going to turn around and accuse someone of "stealing" the phrase "coming out?" That is the very definition of hypocritical behaviour.

I'm actually interested on this point. Mind sharing these terms?

See above.

I'm actually not trying to compare the risks. You're very hung up on the fact that I like to turn things into a "boohoo contest" (for a lack of a better term) even though I don't believe that at all. My point is that using the term "coming out" for something that doesn't involve sexual orientation/gender identity is harmful because we already have sociological contexts for this term and we shouldn't erase that because gay/transgendered people are already a minority and shouldn't be marginalized further.

I point and say, "look, a bat!"

You point and say, "look, a bat!"

Same phrase. Two different meanings if I'm pointing at a baseball bat and you're pointing at a flying animal.

Your point is moot because the term "coming out" is not exclusive to the LGBT community. It never was, and still isn't to this day. You say it's harmful, but what I think is more harmful is people trying to dictate to others how a certain phrase can be used. It's wrong for those against same-sex couples getting married trying to prevent us from using the word "marriage," and likewise it's wrong for you to trying to stop people from using "coming out" for anything other than announcing one's sexual orientation.

That's reaching to the highest degree. My point was "Straight people (for the most part since you brought up honor killings) don't have to be afraid of sharing their partner to their parents/family in comparison to gay people." That didn't mean that I was advocating that we turned our struggles into a "struggle contest" whatsoever.

You're right, for the most part they don't. However, you cannot deny that bringing home a partner to introduce them to the family isn't without risks. So I made the point to illustrate that all of our actions involve an element of risk and therefore nothing should be treated as trivial. Even something as simple as stubbing your toe could lead to death under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

 

[gimmepie]

@Moogles - Sorry, gotta go with Alessi on this one too. I will agree with you in as much as that generally speaking we tend to associate the term "coming out" as someone announcing to another person or group that they are homosexual or bisexual. So generally speaking, that's the most widely accepted interpretation.

I don't think that we can criticise Alessi for his interpretation though, it's different and not as widely accepted but I can easily see how it could be applied to situations other than announcing one's sexuality. He is also correct in his statements that we all have to admit things about ourselves that others may not like at some point, and in saying that we all strive for acceptance even if we like it or not. Even "nonconformists" still tend to try and conform with other nonconformists.

You also gave a pretty bad example before, because you used an example that pretty much every person in the world would consider as a positive achievement, whilst there are some people very opposed to the sexuality of others. This is also the result of you aiming for that goal (to score well) whilst nobody chooses their sexuality you made a conscious effort to work hard and to take that subject.

I would suggest a better example would be a disability. We do not choose to be disabled, and I can personally tell you that there are plenty of people who will treat you differently - quite possibly negatively - if they discover that you have some sort of disability. I'm autistic, and have had people treat me like I'm incompetent or like I need special treatment and care after discovering this - including people who I am far smarter than and/or far stronger emotionally.

Now to further add to my original argument against the whole coming out process. Do you think that if I made a big announcement on Facebook or similar that people would stop treating me differently? God no, this treatment would only increase and it would never go away until we stop treating a disability like it is such a big deal, I'm just another person. I just happen to be autistic the same as that I just happen to be straight.

The "coming out" process is no different. If you make a big deal out of it, society will continue to treat it like a big deal. I'm not saying hide it, I don't hide that I'm autistic - I don't try to conceal my idiosyncrasies or issues in some social settings and if they are mentioned I will happily give the reason why and then I'll move on. That way I create an impression of "Yeah I'm autistic, but clearly that's not exactly a big issue". If gay people just openly admitted to finding people of the same gender attractive casually or were able to do one better and just start dating someone of the same gender without a big announcement then it would do them far better quite similarly to the example I have given.

 

[Poki]

People shouldn't make a big deal out of it.

Guys... I-I'm straight... *nobody cares*
Guys... I-I'm gay... *everyone freaks out*

If your friend comes out, it would be pretty ♥♥♥♥ing stupid of you to treat them differently because of it. They were the same person before that happened, and will remain the same.

Same thing with religion, different race, etc...

Here's an example:
A guy, who happens to be Christian, stopped being friends with me (after a plethora of insults directed towards yours truly), because I told him that I'm an atheist.

If you're an a-hole, I'm gonna treat you like one. No matter what sexuality/religon/race.

People have to realise that.

 

[Star-Lord]

And this is pretty humorous since the LGBT community has been continuously accused of trying to steal the word "marriage" from heterosexuals. And now you're going to turn around and accuse someone of "stealing" the phrase "coming out?" That is the very definition of hypocritical behaviour.

What's humorous about it is that you're arguing that reclaiming marriage which has absolutely no negative effects societally is somehow comparable to the trivialization of a word which is referred to the struggles of identifying and then being public and open about LGBT struggles.

Your point is moot because the term "coming out" is not exclusive to the LGBT community. It never was, and still isn't to this day. You say it's harmful, but what I think is more harmful is people trying to dictate to others how a certain phrase can be used. It's wrong for those against same-sex couples getting married trying to prevent us from using the word "marriage," and likewise it's wrong for you to trying to stop people from using "coming out" for anything other than announcing one's sexual orientation.

I'm aware that it wasn't really exclusive but at the same time, if you ask the majority of people about the phrase "coming out" they will probably think and refer to LGBT people who are coming out of the closet. What we have to understand about it is that a society words and phrases come with different meanings, but some meanings are more important than others, at least in this case. Marriage being re-defined isn't harmful. Coming out being re-defined is harmful. The only example I can think of right now is "Oh well you shouldn't be offended that I called you a ♥♥♥♥♥♥, I meant a bundle of sticks" which, you know, is accurate but still sort of thick headed. It's sort of like that.

You're right, for the most part they don't. However, you cannot deny that bringing home a partner to introduce them to the family isn't without risks. So I made the point to illustrate that all of our actions involve an element of risk and therefore nothing should be treated as trivial. Even something as simple as stubbing your toe could lead to death under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

There is risk in bringing someone home. It is not the same risk that LGBT people who are closeted face. There is risk all the same and I can accept that, so drop it.

@Moogles - Sorry, gotta go with Alessi on this one too. I will agree with you in as much as that generally speaking we tend to associate the term "coming out" as someone announcing to another person or group that they are homosexual or bisexual. So generally speaking, that's the most widely accepted interpretation.

Then why don't we work together to protect this and further protect LGBT people. Not like they're a marginalized group or nothing.

I don't think that we can criticise Alessi for his interpretation though, it's different and not as widely accepted but I can easily see how it could be applied to situations other than announcing one's sexuality. He is also correct in his statements that we all have to admit things about ourselves that others may not like at some point, and in saying that we all strive for acceptance even if we like it or not. Even "nonconformists" still tend to try and conform with other nonconformists.

I can criticize his interpretation all I want. Once gay people are less of a marginalized group (lol) then I think alessi's interpretation would be fine. Until then I think it does more harm than good and that's why I'm adamant on protecting it.

You also gave a pretty bad example before, because you used an example that pretty much every person in the world would consider as a positive achievement, whilst there are some people very opposed to the sexuality of others. This is also the result of you aiming for that goal (to score well) whilst nobody chooses their sexuality you made a conscious effort to work hard and to take that subject.

My friends, my family, my professors, etc. It's as laughable as an example as "finding a new job" so that's why I was brought it up.

I would suggest a better example would be a disability. We do not choose to be disabled, and I can personally tell you that there are plenty of people who will treat you differently - quite possibly negatively - if they discover that you have some sort of disability. I'm autistic, and have had people treat me like I'm incompetent or like I need special treatment and care after discovering this - including people who I am far smarter than and/or far stronger emotionally.

I agree that it's a better example lol my example was purely in reference of "finding a new job" that I quoted in my original post. At least touch on his too if you're going to be like this :P

Now to further add to my original argument against the whole coming out process. Do you think that if I made a big announcement on Facebook or similar that people would stop treating me differently? God no, this treatment would only increase and it would never go away until we stop treating a disability like it is such a big deal, I'm just another person. I just happen to be autistic the same as that I just happen to be straight.

The "coming out" process is no different. If you make a big deal out of it, society will continue to treat it like a big deal. I'm not saying hide it, I don't hide that I'm autistic - I don't try to conceal my idiosyncrasies or issues in some social settings and if they are mentioned I will happily give the reason why and then I'll move on. That way I create an impression of "Yeah I'm autistic, but clearly that's not exactly a big issue". If gay people just openly admitted to finding people of the same gender attractive casually or were able to do one better and just start dating someone of the same gender without a big announcement then it would do them far better quite similarly to the example I have given.

I actually understand the point you're making and I'll recognize that that the whole process of telling your friends your problems is a troubling and turbulent experience (I've never said otherwise) but applying this in turn to coming out which is a turn that, no matter if it wasn't originated in LGBT culture now has strong roots and foundations there is harmful and wrong. The only other problem I have is how you're telling gay people to act because I personally find that really obnoxious coming from straight people, even if it's well-meaning. I don't tell black people or people of other races how to react in the face of racism or their struggles so I wish straight people would do the same to gay people.

If your friend comes out, it would be pretty ♥♥♥♥ing stupid of you to treat them differently because of it. They were the same person before that happened, and will remain the same.

I'm being purely cheeky but when I came out I'd rather people refer to me as gay and talk about me dating a man vs. a woman :P I understand the main point but it's just something to consider.

 

[gimmepie]

@Moogles - Well yeah, technically you can criticise anything you want but it doesn't mean the other guy is wrong. Sorry if it kind of comes across like I'm targeting you, it's just unfortunate circumstance that we keep ending up on the opposite sides of these debates.