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CONGRATS! US HEALTHCARE REFORM PASSES!

Is the individual mandate fair? (Please state your reasoning in the thread)

  • Yes

    Votes: 13 48.1%
  • No

    Votes: 14 51.9%

  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .
I can definitely see the good in this, and I can also definitely see the bad in this. We get government healthcare at the expense of huge taxes imposed on small businesses...because the first step to fixing the economy is crippling almost half of the businesses in the country. At least the thousands of people that will inevitably be laid off will have healthcare. XD

I don't claim to be a very politically aware guy, and I'm often called an anarchist, so please educate me if I overgeneralized in this post. :P
 


So that means that you think the Congress did the right thing starting the war despite the protests. But you don't think it's not democratically right that they passed the health care bill despite the protests?

(I'd make a comment about how there was a civil war in Iraq for years that caused millions of deaths, including thousands of American soldiers, and no mass-destruction weapons and little Al Qaeda members, if any, were found there, despite wasting billions of $, but that's another topic).

@ Prince_of_Light: Corupt process? Do you mind explaining?

And I still think that Obama has little to do with fascism, since he's way more libreal that any European leader, and we don't get called "fascist", that I know of :\

That's why I want you to read the book, friend. Conservatives have been mislabeled with fascism for years on end when the fascists were just as tyrannical as the communists were, and just as much of a government-seize-all state. Liberals may not all be fascists themselves, but a lot of the ways socialists see things are how the fascists saw them back in the 30's. As a matter of fact, Mussolini and Hitler were both revered by the American progressives back in the 20's and 30's if you look at news stories and articles written by Progressives in the press.

The corrupt process has to do with both the Republicans and the press being shut out while the Democrats crafted deals and arm-twisted their less dedicated members. Not to mention the Slaughter solution. That would have totally raped the constitution and the dems were completely ready to go along with it if they needed to. Not to mention all the sweetheart deals present in the Senate bill such as the cornhusker kickback and the louisiana purchase (which still remain since it was the senate bill that was passed, by the way). Outright bribery for votes. And on top of that, if they needed to bribe others they were ready to put forward unused stimulus bill money forward to pay for the bribes as a slush fund!
 
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The corrupt process has to do with both the Republicans and the press being shut out while the Democrats crafted deals and arm-twisted their less dedicated members. Not to mention the Slaughter solution. That would have totally raped the constitution and the dems were completely ready to go along with it if they needed to. Not to mention all the sweetheart deals present in the Senate bill such as the cornhusker kickback and the louisiana purchase (which still remain since it was the senate bill that was passed, by the way).

It boils down to this. By 2013, anyone that hasn't bought health insurance (yes, BOUGHT insurance) will be fined $350 per year, and that amount will increase to $750 per year in 2016. That's average Americans, not big nusinesses. So no, the insurance cost isn't going away. And in the coming months, when this starts to become more and more clear, and the true nature of the bill begins to reveal itself, we're going to learn the hard way what this all really means.

But worse yet, the President and the Democratic party outright betrayed the American people. And that won't go over well, regardless of where they think they stand and regardless of how much they try to rationalize what they've done. Delusions of grandeur don't magically change the way the American people think.

In response to anything else, all I can say is, we'll see what happens in November when the TV ads start reminding people about all this.
 
It boils down to this. By 2013, anyone that hasn't bought health insurance (yes, BOUGHT insurance) will be fined $350 per year, and that amount will increase to $750 per year in 2016. That's average Americans, not big nusinesses. So no, the insurance cost isn't going away. And in the coming months, when this starts to become more and more clear, and the true nature of the bill begins to reveal itself, we're going to learn the hard way what this all really means.

But worse yet, the President and the Democratic party outright betrayed the American people. And that won't go over well, regardless of where they think they stand. Delusions of grandeur don't magically change the way people think.

There are polls out now saying that 75% of the people disapprove of Congress. they're all going to be wiped out in November. =/
 
I think you're mislabling Conservatives with small government Economic Libertarians my friend.

Anyways, I am quite glad this bill passed. It might be crappy, but it just shows the glacial pace our Legislative system works. Seriously, most Republican ideas (back in '94 anyways) is incorporated into the bill.

And due to the fact that nobody here would even WANT to discuss single-payer or the Wyden-Bennett bill it's no use discussing procedure. The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage.
 
There are polls out now saying that 75% of the people disapprove of Congress. they're all going to be wiped out in November. =/

Yep. And now they're already talking about repealing it. Didn't take very long, did it?
 
I think you're mislabling Conservatives with small government Economic Libertarians my friend.

Anyways, I am quite glad this bill passed. It might be crappy, but it just shows the glacial pace our Legislative system works. Seriously, most Republican ideas (back in '94 anyways) is incorporated into the bill.

And due to the fact that nobody here would even WANT to discuss single-payer or the Wyden-Bennett bill it's no use discussing procedure. The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage.

I am not. Brush up on your research. =) The Right that is leading this movement wants nothing to do with the tyranny of either socialism or fascism. One of my favorite authors, W. Cleon Skousen, made a diagram that took a new perspective on "left" and "right", and why such left-right is obsolete.

<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
^ TYRANNY (fascism, socialism, __________________________________ ^ PEOPLE'S RULE ____________________________________________ ANARCHY ^
___________oppressive monarchy)_______________________________(American federalism + ________________________________________(no government
______________________________________________________________our Constitution) _____________________________________________and chaos)

Sorry about the underscores, that was the only way I could figure out how to format it right.

I, and the other conservatives, support the People's rule. Not tyranny.

Secondly, the biggest Republican idea wasn't implemented at all. If all we needed to do was: "The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage." Then why do we need 2,400 pages to do it? Something smells very fishy to me, and I have good reason to believe there is based on what I stated in my earlier post about corrupt procedure.

On a side note, Obama has been quoted in the past as supporting a single-payer system. What makes you think his views have changed since then? Not to mention he has been insisting in his latest speeches that this is just "one gradual step toward true health care reform." I believe he still wants single-payer.
 
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• Pre-existing conditions... gone!
• Dependent care... extended until the age of 26!
• Lifetime caps on coverage... gone!
• Dropped from coverage because you got sick... over!
• 32 million people who don't have coverage... covered!
• Seniors who are impacted by the Medicare "donut hole"... donut hole closed!
• 40,000 people who die on average every single year because they don't have insurance... saved!

However, despite this momentous occasion, you had better believe that those who oppose this legislation will begin a fear campaign of the likes that you have never seen. The worst thing that could have happened to the GOP was for President Obama to obtain this victory. Now, because they positioned themselves as obstructionists, and called the President every name in the book from socialist to communist, they eliminated the possibility from voting with the bill. Doing this left them with no other choice but to continue the strategy of scaring the hell out of the American people before the next political election seasons of 2010 and 2012 in order to obtain a political victory. By not participating in this historic moment the GOP has proven that they are more concerned with self-preservation than trying to improve the conditions of the country.

So here are some of the arguments and counterpoints that you can expect to hear:

Fear Based Argument - "Barack Obama and the Democratic Party are moving this nation to a socialist state!"
Response - Socialism is the theory advocating the state ownership of an industry or an economic system based on state ownership of capital. In fact, as far as health care is concerned the Government owns nothing. They only want to regulate it more to make sure that people don't die!

Fear Based Argument - "Barack Obama and the Democrats rammed this bill down our throats."
Response - We have been debating this bill for decades and the Republicans have never shown any interest in doing anything but keeping things the same. The same isn't working because costs keep rising and people keep dying. Just like a child who has a toy and hasn't played with it in weeks... let his friend have an interest in the toy and the child starts to cry, "Gimmie my toy!" GOP you had your turn to play with health care, you didn't want to play with it and you let costs continue to skyrocket while people died... it's the Democrats turn now!

Fear Based Argument - "This will spell political destruction for the Democratic party if you push this through!"
Response - The people voted Barack Obama into office to push this through. They only are upset with him because he took too long in pushing it through.

Fear Based Argument - "The people are against this legislation!"
Response - The people are highly in favor or health care reform. Barack Obama won on a campaign of promising a STRONGER health care legislation and that is the reason that they are against it. They want the public option which was taken out but promised in the campaign and they don't want mandates which Barack stated in his campaign he wasn't for. However, despite the fact that the people wanted a stronger bill, this bill as it stands is infinitely better than nothing at all because we now have a framework which we can build.

Fear Based Argument - "Obama and the Democrats want to kill Grandma!"
Response - End of life discussions with your doctor actually empower you to provide your doctor with information so that in case you are ever in a condition where you can't make these decisions for yourself (you are in a coma or vegetative state) your doctor will know exactly those wishes that YOU want to carry out pertaining to your life. Here is a previous blog that I wrote that elaborates on this fear based point.

Fear Based Argument - "The Democrats want to spend, spend, and spend so our children are saddled with heavy mountains of debt!"
Response - This bill is not only paid for, but it reduces the deficit according to the Congressional Budget Office by $140 billion in the first 10 years and by over $1.2 trillion in the following 10 years. For some reason you don't trust the CBO whenever they produce numbers that disprove your point and call them liars, but you cite them whenever they help to prove your point. Which is it? Are they reliable or liars?
Furthermore, let's just say that this legislation was not funded as the multiple legislations passed under a Republican legislation such as the Medicare prescription drug plan, the tax cuts, and the two wars... there is no dollar value on the value of the almost 50,000 lives that will be spared per year, and millions whose lives will be improved because they now have health care coverage.

Fear Based Argument - "This is a Government takeover!"
Response - I thought that a Government takeover required the Government to actually take something over?! The hospitals will still be private, the doctors will still be private, and the Government will not collect ANY funds. For this to be a Government takeover, they sure did a poor job of taking over the health insurance industry.
The GOP is the most effective marketing machine that you will ever come across. Their first priority is to get re-elected and they will stop at no cost to achieve that goal. Although the Democrats are enjoying this victory, we have to be aware of those on the right that will be giving an onslaught of rhetoric that can be very destructive to the party in November. They wake up with the same talking points and you can be sure that those talking points will be plastered on every news channel. Fake grass roots organizations like "Freedom Works", funded by Dick Armey, will continue to spread the message on a massive scale to hundreds of thousands across the country. We can't rest on our laurels thinking that we have done enough because policy is on our side. We have to combat this evil rhetoric not with evil, but with truth, facts, and a hell of a lot of noise! It is NOT ENOUGH to yell at the TV to create change. We have to arm ourselves with truth and become as active as they are. The political success of the left depends upon it.

Hi.
 
I am not. Brush up on your research. =) The Right that is leading this movement wants nothing to do with the tyranny of either socialism or fascism. One of my favorite authors, W. Cleon Skousen, made a diagram that took a new perspective on "left" and "right", and why such left-right is obsolete.

<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
^ TYRANNY (fascism, socialism, __________________________________ ^ PEOPLE'S RULE ____________________________________________ ANARCHY ^
___________oppressive monarchy)_______________________________(American federalism + ________________________________________(no government
______________________________________________________________our Constitution) _____________________________________________and chaos)

Sorry about the underscores, that was the only way I could figure out how to format it right.

I, and the other conservatives, support the People's rule. Not tyranny.

Secondly, the biggest Republican idea wasn't implemented at all. If all we needed to do was: "The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage." Then why do we need 2,400 pages to do it? Something smells very fishy to me, and I have good reason to believe there is based on what I stated in my earlier post about corrupt procedure.

On a side note, Obama has been quoted in the past as supporting a single-payer system. What makes you think his views have changed since then? Not to mention he has been insisting in his latest speeches that this is just "one gradual step toward true health care reform." I believe he still wants single-payer.

"People's rule" is such a fluid thing. Didn't HS Government Class teach about the Parliamentary System? That "diagram" is biased to our form of Federalism as if it's the best out there. Democracy and Republicanism can assume different forms.

Anyways, Busy day : Registering with the death panels, getting barcode tattoo, then off to Marxist re-education camp. Glenn Beck tried to warn us.
 


"People's rule" is such a fluid thing. Didn't HS Government Class teach about the Parliamentary System? That "diagram" is biased to our form of Federalism as if it's the best out there. Democracy and Republicanism can assume different forms.

Anyways, Busy day : Registering with the death panels, getting barcode tattoo, then off to Marxist re-education camp. Glenn Beck tried to warn us.

I don't have Skousen's book in front of me, but he spoke to your point after the diagram was set up. I figured it needed more explanation. I believe he said something to the effect that the people's rule is defined as giving the people the power to define their government, while not giving each individual so much power that there can be no order. Secondly, our system of federalism is the best out there, when the constitution is actually being followed. What do you think all the other nations modeled their constitutions after? Thin air? No, ours was the first. Ours drew from Greek, Roman, and British roots. Thereafter, the other nations began to emulate us. Also, I'm aware that other governments achieve this effect. I just put American federalism so you would get the jist of what I meant.
 
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"People's rule" is such a fluid thing. Didn't HS Government Class teach about the Parliamentary System? That "diagram" is biased to our form of Federalism as if it's the best out there. Democracy and Republicanism can assume different forms.

Anyways, Busy day : Registering with the death panels, getting barcode tattoo, then off to Marxist re-education camp. Glenn Beck tried to warn us.


I <3 you Netto. lolGlenn Beck.

As much as I am concerned about the possible repurcussions (for or against the bill, you must admit, it has the potnetial to go wrong) I have to agree with the people's rule part. Its true. Its the most dynamic aspect of our governmental system, and thus causes some swinging changes in public views, sometimes, public opinion shifts radically and other times it is a gradual process, this just happens to be one of those radical shifts in public opinion, it will most likely be brought up for repeal in the near future.
 
Kindly tell me where in the Constitution it says that Congressmen have to do what their constituents want them to do. They get their power from the people who elect them. Then it is entirely up to their judgment. >_>



...What? This isn't a liberals vs. conservatives issue. This is a "Barack Obama cannot be compared to Adolf Hitler" issue.

As for the liberals who "will do whatever they want," the Democrats sure don't get a lot done for supposedly having dictatorial tendencies. lol.

the representetives(sp) are voted to represent their state and people. The represent our views and beliefs, well supposed to.
 
the representetives(sp) are voted to represent their state and people. The represent our views and beliefs, well supposed to.

The argument the person you quoted just made basically amounts to the candidate lying on the campaign about what they stand for, getting elected, then revealing themselves to have a completely different ideology than what they ran on, screwing their constituents over completely. And apparently they must think it's ok for that to happen because the will of the people supposedly only matters in the voting booth. If he read anything of the Federalist Papers he would know that that is exactly what legislators were intended to do, VOTE WITH THEIR CONSTITUENTS' OPINION.
 
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This is a BAD thing.....

Our Taxes will go up about 20%, and the ELDERLY PEOPLE and MEDICARE, are so screwed, Elderly prescriptions that were half cheap will skyrocket, THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING.
 
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