Contests!

[Palamon]

Soo, we know Contests in the anime exist in Kanto, Johto, Hoenn and Sinnoh, but were not showcased in Unova or Kalos, since Kalos has Pokemon Showcases. Anyway, yes, the Pokemon Contests. In case someone is new to the anime, a contest is a competition where a Pokemon Coordinator shows off their Pokemon's appeal. There's a round for showing off the skills of the Pokemon, and Contest Battles. Coordinators compete for a ribbon; five ribbons allow the person to enter the Grand Festival.

Anyway.

AG Contests or DP Contests?

Would you like to see Contests return in the anime's future?

Who do you feel is a Top Coordinator?

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Personally, neither were good at all.

And I'd rather they not bring back contests at all since they were largely a waste of time anyways, not to mention gave false advertising as to whether the contests would actually have a major role in the games when they were at best overrated side quests. They were better off having the girl character actually participate in a league, or at least going for some type mastery thing, at least THAT gets you the end credits in the games, and if you're going to market it to girls, the least one can do is actually make sure the anime lines up with the games in that respect (only way having the contests as a major goal would be remotely acceptable is if the games made sure to make them an actual separate goal from the leagues and not simply an overblown side quest that only nets you an item for your secret base at best). The fact that they had pointlessly replaced May with Dawn in DP just to have the latter do the same thing as her only reinforces how pointless it is.

As far as top coordinator, does it really matter? They left the series before they even got any wins at the Grand Festival anyway, so for all we know, any one of them could be that. I guess if I had no other option but to pick one, as much as I hate her, I'll have to go with May, since at least she was shown to have improved, while Dawn only had a single contest region to go for.

 

[Horn]

I have, once again, strongly disagree with Weedle. Contests were the best thing for Ash's girl companion to do and I really wish they made Serena another Coordinator, instead of her participating in sexist Miss-like show (which I find quite inappropriate for kids show, to say the least). It was a goal that could be achieved, unlike Misty's Water Pokémon master and Iris' Dragon Pokémon master. Absence of Contests is one thing that was wrong with BW IMO, since thanks to that, there were too many meaningless battles and nothing much else to watch. Plus, unlike Weedle, I realy loved how they took a thing that was minor in games and extended it to something, that can actually be your goal.

And to answer Karnavaly's questions. Both AG and DP contests had their own uniqness (is that actually a word?), so it's hard for me to decide. I liked how they were limited to just one Pokémon for the whole Contest in most of AG Contests, but I also liked the freedom to use diferent Pokémon for performance and battle that DP brought. And the participants were also interesting in both. So I simply cannot choose just one series over the other.

I already answered your second question, but just in case you didn't catch it, yes, I would love to see them back.

Top Coordinator? For me, Nando, because he was the only one in the show to be shown to excel in both Contests and League battles and actually take advantage from both. I really loved that about him.

 

[Mawa]

Personally, neither were good at all.

And I'd rather they not bring back contests at all since they were largely a waste of time anyways, not to mention gave false advertising as to whether the contests would actually have a major role in the games when they were at best overrated side quests. They were better off having the girl character actually participate in a league, or at least going for some type mastery thing, at least THAT gets you the end credits in the games, and if you're going to market it to girls, the least one can do is actually make sure the anime lines up with the games in that respect (only way having the contests as a major goal would be remotely acceptable is if the games made sure to make them an actual separate goal from the leagues and not simply an overblown side quest that only nets you an item for your secret base at best). The fact that they had pointlessly replaced May with Dawn in DP just to have the latter do the same thing as her only reinforces how pointless it is.

As far as top coordinator, does it really matter? They left the series before they even got any wins at the Grand Festival anyway, so for all we know, any one of them could be that. I guess if I had no other option but to pick one, as much as I hate her, I'll have to go with May, since at least she was shown to have improved, while Dawn only had a single contest region to go for.

I love contest in the anime, they are the episodes I prefer most. Them, and the league.

But I kind agree with Weedle. Unlike him, I love the contest, but they could be improve:
An Ash's companion with a real story.
The contest (in the Anime) being bigger
A bigger contest side in the games --> ORAS disappointed me so much with that... how cool would t be if we could do some contest online? Imagine, we could use some "battle useless" Pokemon that we love.

I love when we saw May again and her Pokemon had evolved. That's something we are still missing in the Anime. More improvement and not always the same mistakes.

If only we could have more real battles/contest instead of fillers an little "misadventures" in the Anime...

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

I have, once again, strongly disagree with Weedle. Contests were the best thing for Ash's girl companion to do and I really wish they made Serena another Coordinator, instead of her participating in sexist Miss-like show (which I find quite inappropriate for kids show, to say the least). It was a goal that could be achieved, unlike Misty's Water Pokémon master and Iris' Dragon Pokémon master. Absence of Contests is one thing that was wrong with BW IMO, since thanks to that, there were too many meaningless battles and nothing much else to watch. Plus, unlike Weedle, I realy loved how they took a thing that was minor in games and extended it to something, that can actually be your goal.

"Miss show?" I'll give you the Beauty and the Beach episode (and yes, that WAS inappropriate even WITHOUT James'... inflatable chest), but I don't recall there being ANY "Miss-" shows when Misty was on there (even Princess vs. Princess actually HAD battles in there to make up for it, and in fact, you could argue it was essentially a prototype to Pokémon Contests). And what I'm thinking more of is Misty going for Whirl Cup competitions as well as participating in miniature leagues. And actually, those goals you listed COULD be achieved just as much as if not even MORE than contests. Especially when unlike Contests, those are things you actually CAN do to get to the ending credits (heck, just ask Nickstr, he managed to get a full on Water Pokémon team and beat the Elite 4 and champion with it, so it's not even impossible to become a Water Pokémon Master in the games via that method. Also look up Tumblr.). You could skip contests in the games and there wouldn't be much impact other than possibly not getting 100%, you don't even need them to complete the game. Probably the only thing contests were actually NEEDED for in any case was evolving Feebas into a Milotic just to get the latter's full data in your Pokedex, which is enough of a chore even without it since you need to hunt down the right type of Feebas and then feed it certain Pokeblocks to emphasize the beauty aspects and then it will evolve if you're lucky. Want advertising for the game, have the contests be an ACTUAL alternate method to getting the ending and not simply an overglorified side quest. And another thing, DON'T replace May with Dawn if they really wanted it to mean anything (did they replace Ash for any other characters in the games? Don't answer, it's rhetorical). And having girls be gym challengers shouldn't be a problem. Heck, I can think of plenty of ways to have their strategies be completely different from Ash. At least it's better than having them be replaced just to have them do the same goal again regarding contests, like what happened with May and Dawn.

 

[Horn]

You obviously misunderstood me. By Miss-like show I meant Pokémon Showcase Serena participates in, not anything Misty participated in.
And sorry, but Water Pokémon master is as unreachable goal as Ash's Pokémon Master in the anime world. And once again, anime Pokémon world is not game Pokémon world and I am glad for that. I am really glad they did not hesitate to bring things unique to this world and don't just copy the games. Contest is just one of such things, deal with it.
And yes, the change from May to Dawn was stupid and I hated it back then. But writers obviously had to promote DP and unfortunately, the best thing to do so is by bringing the game's main character, so I don't really blame them for that.
And sorry, I can't think of any way when girl following Ash going the Gym route like Ash wouldn't be stupid with too many similar battles. The only way this could work would be if Ash and that girl challenged Gym Leaders for Tag Battles and that is probably big no-no for writers to have two main characters to team up against single Gym Leader. Any other way is too many battles. And Pokémon is not Dragon Ball or Naruto where you never have enough battles. Pokémon anime also needs to appeal audience who don't care for normal battles too and contests where great thing to appeal them.

 

[DBZ fan]

Personally i don't miss contests. I liked them when they first came around being interested in different alternative to see pokemon utilized.

Used in action and explore on different type of careers where humans with their pokemon partners can grow. Whole idea of implementing appeal rounds with battle rounds was creative enough and pretty cool actually. Witnessing some sort of qualification tests in every event to earn right to advance to next round and face your opponents. With combination of pokemon techniques, improvised moves like ice chandelier, counter shield, aura sphere etc playing with pokemon moves and executing them in pretty, flashy manner. To leave captivating impression on audience offering nice , yet enjoyable way to showcase pokemon and their trainers(coordinators) in different type of environment.

Basing character development, rivalries and protagonist facing various dilemma and struggles learning how to outcome them through that.

However i feel two regions of contests was enough and what we didn't saw covered through May performance was filled up with Dawn with DP being time period when whole coordinating aspect appeal started to wear of for me. Reusing good chunk of ideas Hoenn introduced refining them a bit, and starting to feel repetitive and unoriginal.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for certain people statements of contests "being best possible goal for females to do" discarding water or dragon pokemon master career Misty and Iris pursued as either "boring" or "not viable" is not only insulting to this characters, but highly presumptuous.

How can anyone consider type master careers as non workable and poor ideas?
Especially if those dreams weren't fleshed out enough to witness how appealing or innovative to story overall they could be???

We saw full potential of contest, what they can offer on table and how viable they can be.
However just because other companions careers received less focus and exploitment cannot be deemed as "boring" or "pointless" if we haven't even saw full potential of what can be accomplished there.

For instance i thought Misty dream of becoming water pokemon master had interesting viable premise behind it. We got opportunity to follow one type trainer striving to overcome ceertain specie disadvantages and flaws using them to full potential. Providing different, yet unique way to see someone grow as trainer and provide freash alternative through events in which pokemon could be used.
Whether its underwater battling, races, battles on dry land where you have to innovate etc. Being divided in smaller competuitions leading to one big tournament. Expand on Whirl Cuo intriducing new tournaments.
Play on her admiration to E4 and Lorelei tying her within other water experts plots,battling evaluatirs, entering soecial events in trying to be taken as apprentice.

I thought Iris dream of becoming dragon master was interesting concept as well due to connections with nature and instincts. It was focused on learning how to properly read dragon feelings, understand their hearts, fears and emotions. Be able to establish two way communication with them achieving synchrinization to work as one in battle .
Have her meet other powerful dragon experts battling them, taking advices and coming to understand how to raise what appeared to be most challenging type of pokemon to train in powerful creatures.

But for whatever were reasons behind type master careers not being enough fleshed out, you guys cannot act like there wasn't room and ways to make more out of whole type master concept.

EDIT:
To Horn: water pokemon master career is more achievable than Ash quest, because if anything its much more defined with such term not just being brought up in anime, but games as well. It was stated multiple times how water master means becoming among strongest water trainers in world, top of the top. With Whirl Cup during Whirl islands archipelago establishing how winning this prestige tournament obtaining title of "Alpha Omega of Water pokemon !" will bring you closer toward fulfilling requirements to get this title.

With sea heroes (in Japanese that's name for water masters) going by priestess Maya and professor Elm from Newbark town words being classified as high class water experts who understood emotions and secret of water specie knowing how to use them to full potential.

Indicating how just like with contests there exists tournaments Misty would need to win to reach her goal and prove herself among water trainers scene.

Concurrently with that every E4 member is marked as pokemon type master with E4 Siebold from Kalos being first water pokemon master in history of games. Nevertheless Misty both in anime and games idolize E4 Lorelei wanting to reach such level of power and recognition herself, which is logical because E4 members are best among best among one type trainers being labelled as type masters.

 

[Horn]

By unachievable for single type master, I meant more like goal-less. In Contests, you have the Top Coordinator title. In Gym Balltes you have the League Championship, then winning it, then beat E4 and Champion to become Champion yourself. But what goal there is for single type masters? Who could they beat to get the title? And is there realy such a title or is it just dreamed goal, much like Ash's Pokémon Master is? That's what bothered me about both Misty and Iris, this lack of actual goal. Whereas in Contest, you actually have real physical goal to reach and work to get. And that's why Contests were the best thing for Ash's girl companions to do in my humble opinion.

And yes, Contests may be repititive, but so are Ash's Gym Battles after 19 years and 8 regions. Which is why it's good to have alternative to them, which neither Misty's nor Iris' mastering brought, sorry to all their fans. Contests, on the other hand, were such an alternative.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

By unachievable for single type master, I meant more like goal-less. In Contests, you have the Top Coordinator title. In Gym Balltes you have the League Championship, then winning it, then beat E4 and Champion to become Champion yourself. But what goal there is for single type masters? Who could they beat to get the title? And is there realy such a title or is it just dreamed goal, much like Ash's Pokémon Master is? That's what bothered me about both Misty and Iris, this lack of actual goal. Whereas in Contest, you actually have real physical goal to reach and work to get. And that's why Contests were the best thing for Ash's girl companions to do in my humble opinion.

And yes, Contests may be repititive, but so are Ash's Gym Battles after 19 years and 8 regions. Which is why it's good to have alternative to them, which neither Misty's nor Iris' mastering brought, sorry to all their fans. Contests, on the other hand, were such an alternative.

I can at least answer regarding Misty: Sea Heroes. That's the goal. I can also cite Elite 4 or Champion, because they were also referred to as Masters, and some of them were a single type. And besides, are you entirely sure about Ash and May/Dawn's goals actually having goals? Zoey got Top Coordinator, yet she continued her journey despite her obviously having achieved her goal by your definition. Heck, Ash won the Orange League and even Battle Frontier (and the way Scott and Agatha talked, at the very least, the Frontier Brains were on the Elite 4 Level), yet last I checked, he's still not a Pokémon Master. We could just as easily argue that those ARE just as goalless as Water Pokemon Master or Dragon Pokemon Master as well since the participants continued their journey when, if they succeeded in the goal truly, they would have quit since there's no reason to travel anymore.

 

[Horn]

Reaching your goal doesn't mean the end of your journey. So, Zoey became Top Coordinator in Sinnoh and moved to another region to achieve the same goal. What is wrong about that? And she also may want to defend her title in the next Sinnoh Grand Festival, for which, she'll have to stay in top condition. It's still a goal she reached and now she widened that goal. Since when being ambitious became a sin?
The same goes for Ash. Orange crew was clearly said to be unofficial, so even though he won it, he still is not officialy recognized. Hence, he continue his journey. By winning Battle Frontie, Ash had a chance to become Frontier Brain, thus ending his Journey, but we all know that is not Ash's real goal. He wants to be a Pokémon Master, which, as I already said, is as vague as single type master. However, to reach it, he needs to be the best, and the best in Pokémon world are Champions. Hence, Ash will aim to be Pokémon Champion and that is goal he could achieve eventually.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Reaching your goal doesn't mean the end of your journey. So, Zoey became Top Coordinator in Sinnoh and moved to another region to achieve the same goal. What is wrong about that? And she also may want to defend her title in the next Sinnoh Grand Festival, for which, she'll have to stay in top condition. It's still a goal she reached and now she widened that goal. Since when being ambitious became a sin?
The same goes for Ash. Orange crew was clearly said to be unofficial, so even though he won it, he still is not officialy recognized. Hence, he continue his journey. By winning Battle Frontie, Ash had a chance to become Frontier Brain, thus ending his Journey, but we all know that is not Ash's real goal. He wants to be a Pokémon Master, which, as I already said, is as vague as single type master. However, to reach it, he needs to be the best, and the best in Pokémon world are Champions. Hence, Ash will aim to be Pokémon Champion and that is goal he could achieve eventually.

Yes, actually, reaching your goal DOES mean the end of your journey. The entire point of a goal is to reach, and the point behind the journey is to reach and accomplish your goal. Even the writers stated that if Ash wins, that's the end of the show.

And in case you've forgotten, the best of Water Pokémon Masters are at the very least Elite 4 members, if not Champions. As DBZ pointed out, that's even strongly implied with the likes of Lorelei/Prima who was explicitly referred to as such and an Elite 4 member. That means Misty's goal has as much stake as Ash's goal, with the only difference being that she doesn't necessarily need to challenge gyms to do so.

 

[DBZ fan]

By unachievable for single type master, I meant more like goal-less. In Contests, you have the Top Coordinator title. In Gym Balltes you have the League Championship, then winning it, then beat E4 and Champion to become Champion yourself. But what goal there is for single type masters? Who could they beat to get the title? And is there realy such a title or is it just dreamed goal, much like Ash's Pokémon Master is? That's what bothered me about both Misty and Iris, this lack of actual goal. Whereas in Contest, you actually have real physical goal to reach and work to get. And that's why Contests were the best thing for Ash's girl companions to do in my humble opinion.

And yes, Contests may be repititive, but so are Ash's Gym Battles after 19 years and 8 regions. Which is why it's good to have alternative to them, which neither Misty's nor Iris' mastering brought, sorry to all their fans. Contests, on the other hand, were such an alternative.

In my previous post I believe i brought up tasks, requirements and steps you would needs to win inn order to gain water pokemon master title. Being revealed through Whirl Cup how winning water based events of such caliber is needed in order to become type master. With there existing clear connection between "Alpha Omega of water pokemon!" title and "Water pokemon master title!.

In align to that we reliably know how water pokemon master is reality because every E4 member is labelled as type master of pokemon specie he/she specialize in alongside Whirl islands having even whole lore based about "sea heroes", water spirits" and their connection to whole water pokemon master quest. With Misty showing real interest in E4 members wishing to reach such level of prestige and strength with her pokemon..

With Iris we even met dragon pokemon master in person (Drayden) being explained how in order to obtain such title you need to learn how to reach to dragon pokemon hearts and understand their feelings having immense knowledge about them. Achieving perfect synchronization with your pokemon working like one(something Iris started to have moderate success when battling Clair temporarily being able to read Dragonite mind in battle).

With dragon master title being given by dragon village.
Being mentioned even in games how Lance grandfather is leader of clan of famous dragon masters, just like E4 Siebold is considered water pokemon master.

I agree how whole path and way in how someone can gain title of let say top pokemon coordinator was explained in very detailed and clear cut manner.

While in comparison dragon and water pokemon master careers were left unpolished in some ways. Being only explained partially what kind of requirements and tasks Iris and little more in Misty case(thanks to Whirl Cup) would need to be fulfilled in order to reach those titles. With all pieces of puzzle not being gathered.

In end maybe writers didn't explored them enough due to various reasons. Like inexperience, lack of interest, bad communication between them and higher ups who were in charge like pokemon director for example(for Misty we know from mr. Shudo blogs how writers insecurity in what to make out of pokemon anime in early years and disagreements with director reflected on writing and ultimately her faith). While for Iris not only did use of dragon pokemon as very rare specie represented logistic issue in lacking enough diversity like water to make type based competitions as ways to measure dragon trainer growth, but it also seem like writers gotten lazy reflecting on terrible treatment of others too like Ash, rivals, villains, TR etc.


However primary objective of what in rough drafts needs to be accomplished was brought up both in Misty and Iris situations knowing what exactly means to be water pokemon master and dragon pokemon master respectively. Having even in games legitimacy.

Also type master careers Misty and Iris pursued are less ague and more explained than Ash pokemon master dream. For all reasons mentioned in this and post before that.

 

[Horn]

Yes, actually, reaching your goal DOES mean the end of your journey. The entire point of a goal is to reach, and the point behind the journey is to reach and accomplish your goal. Even the writers stated that if Ash wins, that's the end of the show.

And in case you've forgotten, the best of Water Pokémon Masters are at the very least Elite 4 members, if not Champions. As DBZ pointed out, that's even strongly implied with the likes of Lorelei/Prima who was explicitly referred to as such and an Elite 4 member. That means Misty's goal has as much stake as Ash's goal, with the only difference being that she doesn't necessarily need to challenge gyms to do so.

I risk for this post to be deleted as OT, but I still have to write this. It now is clear to me that you have diferent meaning of the word goal. For me, goal is anything you want to reach at any moment, however easy that can be and it may not necessarily be the end of your journey. Like, my goal is to drink fresh orange juice, hence my current goal is to get oranges, when that goal will be fullfiled, my goal will be to make juice from them, then I'll move to actually drink the juice. That's my definition of goal, something I have to fulfil now and continue in my quest, not something that will end the life as I know it. Or I can use real world sport paralel. Did Michael Shumacher stopped after he reached his goal of becoming World Champion for the first time? Of course not! He expanded his goal and eventually became seven-time champion. That's how goals work in real life and why I find that quote about series ending when Ash will win quite disturbing, to be honest.

 

[Lizardo]

I'm not seeing how Contests got repetitive. I'm especially not seeing how they got unoriginal. At least, not any more so than seeing Satoshi battle Gym Leaders and rivals in the League every series. If anything, the strategies, appeals, and battles only got more varied and complex as the anime went on.

And seeing Serena's Pokémon Showcases play out over the course of XY has only given me more respect for the way the writers handled them. I'm not saying they should come back or anything, but the anime has never handled a secondary goal anywhere near as well as they did Pokémon Contests.

As far as which series did Contests better? Diamond & Pearl, easily. For as much as I enjoyed Haruka and her rivals, DP did more with them in general.

For most of AG, iirc, Haruka's victories in the battle round mostly came from knocking out her opponent's Pokémon. The appeal round tended to be pretty unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Pokémon Contests were a new way of showcasing Pokémon – with the existence of an appeal round, a greater emphasis on a Pokémon's style and grace, a time limit in battles and judges to award points – but AG really didn't do a lot to take advantage of that.

That really changes in DP. Not only do the appeal rounds become more varied and better animated, but they also get more important. Hikari loses two Pokémon Contests in a row because she can't get past them. She has to learn that the entire point of Contests is that the Pokémon shines. This carries over in several battles, particularly the Nozomi-Satoshi one where Nozomi wins in large part because she makes her Pokémon stand out while Satoshi is only concerned with scoring the knockout blow and fails to take into account things like the time limit (which is why he loses, despite being in a position to land the winning shot) or that he can lose points by being too aggressive.

Give me Pokémon Contests over Showcases or "X-type Pokémon Master" any-fucking-day. The characters, battles, and storylines in them were just so much more thought-out.