Evolution of Hacking

[Darthatron]

Their problem isn't that people are using tools. I don't know of anyone that would attempt to completely make a hack in hex. Their problem is that people are using tools without having at least some idea what the tool actually does to the ROM.

Exactly my point.

...? I was just responding to Darthatrson...

lrn2speel

"Darthatron"

I think Sebbe is trying to point out that people don't even put tools in the credits anymore. I guess that is a bit of a problem but who even looks at the credits anyway?

I don't think that the tool makers should allow themselves to be affected by n00bs showing them disrespect. The only people whose opinions matter should be those people whom you respect. I have to say I totally agree with what Kike has written. Some people are just more creatively inclined and some are more technically inclined. One shouldn't think they are better than the other because in truth both are dependant on each other. Er, did that make sense?

But, the stupid noobs could one day become "good" hackers. I just want to know that when all the current hackers leave, that there will be some people who know what they're doing.

 

[Dratii]

I think we need a good tutorial from people who know how to hack in hex.

 

[thethethethe]

I think we need a good tutorial from people who know how to hack in hex.

There are plenty out there right now. I just got a PM from someone asking me about some Hex editing tutorials. There's quite a few tutorials even just here at PC. This was part of my reply to the hacker.

There's quite a few tutorials on how to do things in hex.
Hex Editing Learnable Attacks
Hex Editing Evolutions
Hex Editing Attacks
Hex Editing Trainers
Hex Editing Base Stats
Trades/TM-HM Editing
You could also just take pointers from tool's ini, and try to decode the data that is there and relate it back to what the tool does.

Still no mention there of tutorials on other sites. You just have to be willing to look.

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

Sorry, Darthatron, typo.

You know, I think it's that people sort of don't want to spend time in front of a row of numbers and letters that they have no idea about. I want to learn hex and ASM and everything as well, it just seems...daunting and slightly boring.

 

[Hat?]

Sorry, Darthatron, typo.

You know, I think it's that people sort of don't want to spend time in front of a row of numbers and letters that they have no idea about. I want to learn hex and ASM and everything as well, it just seems...daunting and slightly boring.

Learning how to do basic things in a hex editor really isn't that hard, just tell yourself that you're going to do it, then get on with it, you might find it interesting. I always try and do things in a hex editor before using a tool, provided the tool's any good, it will make you appreciate it more.

Hex editing is pretty simple compared to ASM, you won't even need to know ASM if you just want a similar game to the original, plus there's usually people who just hack to learn how the game works, to help you with the more technical side of things, or people who have learned ASM after they have had more experience in ROM hacking. For example Mastermind X doing the shiny patch and MeanMrMustad with his big tileset hack.

Anyway, I think some of you long-time R/S/E/FR/LG/D/P/P hackers are being a little bit self-destructive, emphasizing tools over hex editing and not organizing your resources better. Maybe you should head over to Data Crystal and make yourselves a few ROM maps!!! And just generally work together on making tools and documents rather than releasing lots of variations on the same thing, scattered all over the place making beginner hackers get high blood pressure from the frustration.

 

[gabe_k]

Just so you guys know it's entirely possible to map in DP with public programs (And no, I don't mean hex editors). These programs aren't really supposed to be public, but whatever, Nintendo hasn't complained yet. https://www.pokecommunity.com/threads/148703 Use the plugins in there to for whatever 3D modeling program you want (that's supported), export it, you'll probably need too mess with some texture stuff in hex, but it's not hard. Inject the map. The end. DP map editing isn't getting any easier then this. Ever. The idea that anyone in the hacking community could make a 3D modeling tool better then Maya or 3DS Max is just stupid.

This has been around for a while, people just assume there must be an easier way, like DP is suddenly going to become tile based and work advance map. If you're not happy with the tools don't wait for better ones, this is the best you'll ever get.

 

[loadingNOW]

you can't really say romhacking evolved. Thats simply not the case the people you know lerned more but there were always great hacks. There was the amazing Secret of Mana 2 Translation for example don't tell me that's "just" a translation there is more hacking than in most of your projects. All dejap projects and a lot of good mario world lunar magic stuff. All of this was done before halfway decent pokemon hacks.

I've always said it and i'll say it again dp mapping is probably not going to happen - unless you guys are very lucky and someome capable of doing it desides to stick with the project which is unlikely. And the sdk tools don't really count unless someone streamlines the process - and adds the missing links. Because while it's not so hard to change a model it's still hard to make a whole new map with proper warps events collision and the model not just some random proof of concept like hey i can mess up polygons and replace house x with house y. Meaning I CANT DO IT and i dont know anyone who can maybe i could with some more R&D but i don't have the time for this.

You don't need to hack in hexeditors to call yourself a hacker but you should be able to figure out whats going on in hex in principle - and able to write a tool to do the deteils for you

all these don't insult tool makers or they wont release anything is BS imo. They do it because its fun to do for them and not because they want to get ethernal grattitude of the users (if you are a tool maker and only do it for your "fame" maybe you really should quit it)

 

[gabe_k]

Colision and model placement is quite easy, so the main problem is still getting an actual working model.

 

[deepbluemew]

the main reason why i quit romhacking is not just getting completely boring for me but its ridic large amt of noobs (both hackers and hacks) are getting stupidier every gen. the classic (rgby+gsc) was always the best, tbh.

sooo.... that's my opn.

 

[Wichu]

Well, I'm not a ROM hacker, but I have something to add.
Over in Game Dev, a similar thing has been happening. Making a game is the opposite of ROM hacking; instead of tools being developed to modify the Pokémon game system, the tools are there for you, for example Sphere and RPG Maker XP. However, since they're not designed for Pokémon, the actual Pokémon system has to be coded. So in essence, their goals are opposite.
Before one year ago, anyone wanting to make a Pokémon game had to delve down and get to grips with the code, which is equivalent to hex editing in hacking. Only a couple of promising games were being made, which all had the Pokémon systems coded from scratch; e.g. Acanthite and Protectors.
Then, around a year ago, poccil released his starter kit, with the basic systems coded in. Basically, this was like the release of mapping and scripting tools for hackers. For a while, nothing happened while people experimented with it. Then, OmegaGroudon announced Pokémon Raptor, the first successful game to use it. However, the first demo was pretty bad. He hadn't edited any of the starter kit, other than the maps and events. Kinda like some of the first hacks, e.g. Chaos Black. More people (such as myself) started to use the starter kit, and many other games sprang up.
Recently, most of the activity in Game Dev has been around similar games, with no edits to the engine (you know who you are). Nobody can be bothered to learn to code, they just think "Hey, a starter kit! I don't have to code anything!". Most games in Game Dev are "looking for a scripter" (programmer for you hackers); this shows that the percentage of people who know what they're doing has fallen a lot, much like in ROM hacking. Personally, I think those people should turn to hacking, if only to declutter Game Dev (sorry guys). Just look at how many games there are which don't even make use of RMXP's advantages over hacking (other than all regions, which TBH is getting old)! Anyway, some of the better games are being ignored, which is rather disappointing...
Basically, more people need to know their stuff, both here and in Game Dev. The quality of projects is going downhill partly due to tools/the starter kit... If you're not using the medium to its full potential (hex/ASM or coding), you really should reconsider making a hack/game.
For the record, I no longer think Raptor is bad; it's had many inprovements such as a custom menu and visual effects that make it worthy of being the first to successfully use the starter kit. And no, I'm not looking for a scripter :P

 

[thethethethe]

Well, I'm not a ROM hacker, but I have something to add.
Over in Game Dev, a similar thing has been happening. Making a game is the opposite of ROM hacking; instead of tools being developed to modify the Pokémon game system, the tools are there for you, for example Sphere and RPG Maker XP. However, since they're not designed for Pokémon, the actual Pokémon system has to be coded. So in essence, their goals are opposite.
Before one year ago, anyone wanting to make a Pokémon game had to delve down and get to grips with the code, which is equivalent to hex editing in hacking. Only a couple of promising games were being made, which all had the Pokémon systems coded from scratch; e.g. Acanthite and Protectors.
Then, around a year ago, poccil released his starter kit, with the basic systems coded in. Basically, this was like the release of mapping and scripting tools for hackers.

Thanks for the outsider view. Its kind of sad that both hacking and game development are going down the same road now.
And this is just my opinion, some might not agree, but a mapping tool is needed, but scripting tools aren't. Take Coolboyman for example, the GBC hackers and GB hackers had/have to script things in hex. I tried it for a while in GBA, and it didn't seem that difficult, just a bit more time consuming.

For a while, nothing happened while people experimented with it. Then, OmegaGroudon announced Pokémon Raptor, the first successful game to use it. However, the first demo was pretty bad. He hadn't edited any of the starter kit, other than the maps and events. Kinda like some of the first hacks, e.g. Chaos Black. More people (such as myself) started to use the starter kit, and many other games sprang up.
Recently, most of the activity in Game Dev has been around similar games, with no edits to the engine (you know who you are). Nobody can be bothered to learn to code, they just think "Hey, a starter kit! I don't have to code anything!". Most games in Game Dev are "looking for a scripter" (programmer for you hackers);

We call it a scripter as well. But we have a similiar problem here. We have people seeing advancemap, and thinking 'great, I can map (normally fairly badly), and I'll just get someone to script for me'. It doesn't work like that. Relying on others doesn't work that well. And the proof is many of these hacks are quit.
I just remembered one more thing that has been annoying me lately. What's with this Advance/Medium/Beginner Scripter business? Who decides what classifies you as a 'Medium' scripter? And these team threads saying scripting level 5 needed. The way I see it is, you have people who can script and there are people who can't script. No other categories.

this shows that the percentage of people who know what they're doing has fallen a lot, much like in ROM hacking. Personally, I think those people should turn to hacking, if only to declutter Game Dev (sorry guys). Just look at how many games there are which don't even make use of RMXP's advantages over hacking (other than all regions, which TBH is getting old)! Anyway, some of the better games are being ignored, which is rather disappointing...

Why should they be turned to hacking? It could easily be turned the other way, and we could declutter the hacking section. Many hackers don't take full advantage of what they can do with ROMs.
Some hackers seem to take things on face value, and if they're a good hacker and they say this can't be done, then it can't. Try things, prove them wrong. I've had this done to me before and it can only be for the betterment of the community if people are trying things.

Basically, more people need to know their stuff, both here and in Game Dev. The quality of projects is going downhill partly due to tools/the starter kit... If you're not using the medium to its full potential (hex/ASM or coding), you really should reconsider making a hack/game.
For the record, I no longer think Raptor is bad; it's had many inprovements such as a custom menu and visual effects that make it worthy of being the first to successfully use the starter kit. And no, I'm not looking for a scripter :P

I don't see the tools and the starter kit as the problem. The problem is some(maybe now, most) of the people who are using them. They are too frightened to actually go that step further. They'd much rather stay in their 'comfort zone'. But that just doesn't work.

The only thing else that I need to say is that thanks to this thread, I've gotten a couple of PM's asking for places to start with hex editing. And I'm kind of glad that this thread is pushing that.

 

[CR0SELL]

I think that these days, people become more dependent on other people and tools.
They rely on tools because its easier to do. They rely on people, because they are
to lazy to do it for themselves.

Well, this is a community, so people should help others out.

But I think that its getting out of hand(about the tools). Gabe and LoadingNow say its
really time consuming(And nearly impossible) to make a DP mapper. I know they can make a scripter. Gabe already showed people how to change textures(and kinda map).
Even though this is a "Community", I think that its going out of hand.

 

[Virtual Chatot]

But I think that its getting out of hand(about the tools). Gabe and LoadingNow say its
really time consuming(And nearly impossible) to make a DP mapper. I know they can make a scripter. Gabe already showed people how to change textures(and kinda map).
Even though this is a "Community", I think that its going out of hand.

Gabe has made a DP Map editor, he just hasn't released it to the public yet on account of the swarming of idiots who wouldn't stop demanding a Map editor.

 

[Melash]

I've never heard of Game Dev...that's probably pretty sad, but yeah. Anyone have a link to it?

Back to topic:
I think that we should really get back into gear with hacking DPP. I wasn't around here when hacking first started, and I only joined a little while ago. But still, since I've been here we haven't really gotten very far into DPP hacking. There is Bloody Diamond, but that really isn't a hack. I admit that I can't really help out with 4th Gen hacking, but we do need to get into it.

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

Melash, Game Dev is short for Game Development, which is the forum underneath ROM Hacking.

 

[Wichu]

Why should they be turned to hacking? It could easily be turned the other way, and we could declutter the hacking section. Many hackers don't take full advantage of what they can do with ROMs.

I was joking about that part :P

But yeah, I agree that tools/starter kits aren't a bad thing, but people shouldn't become reliant on them and not bother exploring more advanced methods.

 

[hi sir tomato my password is syvniti]

I was joking about that part :P

But yeah, I agree that tools/starter kits aren't a bad thing, but people shouldn't become reliant on them and not bother exploring more advanced methods.

To be honnest, the mods care a part of the blame, from my viuw...

I been posting 2 threads about MD hacking, None of them got aproved... (A basic descisuing, and then one about scripting in it) They were actually serius, but none of them got aproved... But just look in the hack showcase, what where get's aproved (And quited a week later)

My solutin would be: Go to PHO!

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

Indeed, for more serious hacking, go to PHO. Not that we support that. We'd get ba*cough*nned!

 

[gabe_k]

Well, I'm not a ROM hacker, but I have something to add.
Over in Game Dev, a similar thing has been happening. Making a game is the opposite of ROM hacking; instead of tools being developed to modify the Pokémon game system, the tools are there for you, for example Sphere and RPG Maker XP. However, since they're not designed for Pokémon, the actual Pokémon system has to be coded. So in essence, their goals are opposite.
Before one year ago, anyone wanting to make a Pokémon game had to delve down and get to grips with the code, which is equivalent to hex editing in hacking. Only a couple of promising games were being made, which all had the Pokémon systems coded from scratch; e.g. Acanthite and Protectors.
Then, around a year ago, poccil released his starter kit, with the basic systems coded in. Basically, this was like the release of mapping and scripting tools for hackers. For a while, nothing happened while people experimented with it. Then, OmegaGroudon announced Pokémon Raptor, the first successful game to use it. However, the first demo was pretty bad. He hadn't edited any of the starter kit, other than the maps and events. Kinda like some of the first hacks, e.g. Chaos Black. More people (such as myself) started to use the starter kit, and many other games sprang up.
Recently, most of the activity in Game Dev has been around similar games, with no edits to the engine (you know who you are). Nobody can be bothered to learn to code, they just think "Hey, a starter kit! I don't have to code anything!". Most games in Game Dev are "looking for a scripter" (programmer for you hackers); this shows that the percentage of people who know what they're doing has fallen a lot, much like in ROM hacking. Personally, I think those people should turn to hacking, if only to declutter Game Dev (sorry guys). Just look at how many games there are which don't even make use of RMXP's advantages over hacking (other than all regions, which TBH is getting old)! Anyway, some of the better games are being ignored, which is rather disappointing...
Basically, more people need to know their stuff, both here and in Game Dev. The quality of projects is going downhill partly due to tools/the starter kit... If you're not using the medium to its full potential (hex/ASM or coding), you really should reconsider making a hack/game.
For the record, I no longer think Raptor is bad; it's had many inprovements such as a custom menu and visual effects that make it worthy of being the first to successfully use the starter kit. And no, I'm not looking for a scripter :P

People just want to do as little work as possible to feel as special as the people from gamefreak. Welcome to the interblag.

I think that these days, people become more dependent on other people and tools.
They rely on tools because its easier to do. They rely on people, because they are
to lazy to do it for themselves.

Well, this is a community, so people should help others out.

But I think that its getting out of hand(about the tools). Gabe and LoadingNow say its
really time consuming(And nearly impossible) to make a DP mapper. I know they can make a scripter. Gabe already showed people how to change textures(and kinda map).
Even though this is a "Community", I think that its going out of hand.

Who are you?

Gabe has made a DP Map editor, he just hasn't released it to the public yet on account of the swarming of idiots who wouldn't stop demanding a Map editor.

********. Where have you been? Oh yeahh... Ohio...

I've never heard of Game Dev...that's probably pretty sad, but yeah. Anyone have a link to it?

Back to topic:
I think that we should really get back into gear with hacking DPP. I wasn't around here when hacking first started, and I only joined a little while ago. But still, since I've been here we haven't really gotten very far into DPP hacking. There is Bloody Diamond, but that really isn't a hack. I admit that I can't really help out with 4th Gen hacking, but we do need to get into it.

People saying that are the biggest problem. Everyone thinks people should be hacking DPP, nobody wants to. Nobody thinks they can. Everyone looks at hex as a big scary mudkip who's out to rape all the jews.

To be honnest, the mods care a part of the blame, from my viuw...

I been posting 2 threads about MD hacking, None of them got aproved... (A basic descisuing, and then one about scripting in it) They were actually serius, but none of them got aproved... But just look in the hack showcase, what where get's aproved (And quited a week later)

My solutin would be: Go to PHO!

Same. Apparently there's a stupidity level here which all threads have to meet. Hence Bloody Diamond (NOT HINTING ANYTHING)

Indeed, for more serious hacking, go to PHO. Not that we support that. We'd get ba*cough*nned!

PHO isn't more serious hacking. It's better staff and less idiots.

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

PHO isn't more serious hacking. It's better staff and less idiots.

Normally, less idiots means more serious.