Garchomp Tier Discussion / Debate

[Azonic]

I said Iclce Spear, not Ice Shard! Skill link ensures it will hit 5 times, while the first will eliminate Yache, and four more hits for easy damage. Then Ice Shard can be used as well. And I really have a hard time beliving a pokemon with 180 base defense will fall so easily to a physical move it is not weak to.

Well you better believe it. It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what really would happen.

https://www.metalkid.info/Pokemon/OnlineProgram/Calculators/DamageDP.aspx

I used the calculator above for the calculation of damage.

Garchomp's Statistics (attacker)
- Outrage
- 1 Swords Dance
- Neutral (Jolly) Nature
- 252 Attack EVs
- 31 Attack IVs

Cloyster's Statistics (defender)
- 252 Defense EVs
- 252 HP EVs
- Positive (Impish) nature.
- 31 Defense IVs
- 31 HP IVs

Total Damage:

Defender HP: 304
Damage: 186 - 218
Damage: 186 - 218

And there you have it. Garchomp's Outrage 2HKOs Cloyster. Now, I'm even stretching Cloyster's statistics, since it very rarely carries maxed out Defense EVs and Attack with a +Defense nature. ​

 

[Walrein]

Meaning, as he switches in, Cloyster loses half his HP. The next hit when Chomp goes first will KO.

But Cloysted swiches in when it doesn't have any SD.

 

[Magmortified]

I said Iclce Spear, not Ice Shard! Skill link ensures it will hit 5 times, while the first will eliminate Yache, and four more hits for easy damage. Then Ice Shard can be used as well.

I'm not sure if you've realized this, but an individual Icicle Spear doesn't break the Yache Berry, so Garchomp will still take half damage on all five hits. People don't bother to test this on Shoddy before bringing it up. Not sure if it works in-game, though. =P

And if we have to resort to otherwise mediocre Pokemon to counter Chomp (though it really doesn't, anyhow), shouldn't this be some indicator of how desperate we are to stop it?

And I really have a hard time beliving a pokemon with 180 base defense will fall so easily to a physical move it is not weak to.

Then you're understimating a 180 Base Power move that's backed by some 130 Base Attack and +1/+2 boost. Especially when you take into account a weakness to Stealth Rock.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Max hp max def cloyster might be able to counter chomp, although it takes like 50% from CB Outrage and granted its rare, CB Stone Edge does a number aswell. And i also doubt it would be a be able to OHKO Chomp with icicle spear without significant attack ev investments and with choice band and if you do that you cant switch in without risking a 2hko. Sadly max def, max att , max hp and + att + def nature is illegal unfortunately lol.

Being weak to Stealth Rock doesnt helps matters either.


I would say Chain Chomp too, but thats well to put it nicely....poop.

 

[sims796]

Good luck coming in on it without an SD. Plus, as Maggy said, Yache fails to even break Yache, meaning it can charge up & take my favorite shellfish apart.

 

[Walrein]

I'm not sure if you've realized this, but an individual Icicle Spear doesn't break the Yache Berry, so Garchomp will still take half damage on all five hits. People don't bother to test this on Shoddy before bringing it up. Not sure if it works in-game, though. =P

And if we have to resort to otherwise mediocre Pokemon to counter Chomp (though it really doesn't, anyhow), shouldn't this be some indicator of how desperate we are to stop it?

https://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/cloyster

If you are really enamored by Skill Link, Spike Cannon and Icicle Spear take advantage of it, but both have little overall utility. Icicle Spear does however make Cloyster one of the best Garchomp counters you can find. Thanks to Icicle Spear hitting five times, you can break its Yache Berry protection with the first hit, while the remaining four can finish it off. You can also break through Garchomp's Substitute, also killing it in a single turn.

So smogon was wrong...interesting...
Well then, I say it again, you convinced me, this miniture Groudon should pass to Ubers as soon as possible.

 

[sims796]

Smogon is not God. They are wrong at times.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I'm not sure if you've realized this, but an individual Icicle Spear doesn't break the Yache Berry, so Garchomp will still take half damage on all five hits. People don't bother to test this on Shoddy before bringing it up. Not sure if it works in-game, though. =P

Are you sure Mag ?, I felt sure the first Icicle spear removed Yache. 0_o.....interesting...


Unless its just a shoddy glitch.


Anyways Ill have to try this in game and get back here with my findings, when i have nothing better to do =x.

Unless someone is willing to do this for me, that would be great.








EDIT : Magmortified has just proved to me that Yache Berry IS NOT removed on the firt Icicle Spear on Shoddy.

 

[airconditioning]

I resent all this Slowbro hate. He can realy dent Garchomp, and isn't OHKO'd by SD Outrage. I think that's worth something. >:(

EDIT: I haven't refreshed this page for a few hours, so I was apparently beaten by 11 posts. :/

 

[GeneralGuy]

I resent all this Slowbro hate. He can realy dent Garchomp, and isn't OHKO'd by SD Outrage. I think that's worth something. >:(

Thank you for supporting my point. Slowbro is quite difficult to take down without a boosted Outrage from SD, a Life Orb or a Choice Band. He can potentially OHKO sets without Yache Berry and 2HKO those with the berry. Slack Off + Leftovers really helps him recover too.

As for countering Gyarados, HP Electric will cripple sets without a boosted Bite. Same goes with Surf for Infernapes without Grass Knot.

 

[sims796]

Without. Without. Without. Stop with that word. I can beat down a robber as long as he is without a gun. Sounds ridiculous, amirite? Either all or nothing. We will assume it is at it's best. It's very easy to get in a free SD, and Outrage. Gya WILL have a boosted Bite, assume the worst, not a optimistic situation. Nape is faster, and will Grass Knot it.

 

[ABYAY]

This is for Shoddy battles: Icicle Spear does NOT break Yache Berry on the first hit.

Cloyster used Icicle Spear.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 8% of its health.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 9% of its health.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 9% of its health.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 10% of its health.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 8% of its health.
Hit 5 time(s)!
The Yache Berry weakened Icicle Spear's power!

Icicle Spear argument null for Shoddy.

 

[Azonic]

This is for Shoddy battles: Icicle Spear does NOT break Yache Berry on the first hit.

Cloyster used Icicle Spear.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 8% of its health.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 9% of its health.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 9% of its health.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 10% of its health.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 8% of its health.
Hit 5 time(s)!
The Yache Berry weakened Icicle Spear's power!

Icicle Spear argument null for Shoddy.

Aaand I'm posting to confirm this. I was the user of the YacheChomp that ABYAY tested on. :3

So, Yache Berry weakens ALL FIVE of the Icicle Spears, not only the first one.

 

[Anti]

Good luck coming in on it without an SD.

Wait a sec...

You would have to be an absolute fool to give Garchomp a potential 2 turns set up, if I understand what you're saying correctly. You switch in while it Swords Dances up, so while you'll come in and it'll have +2 Atk, but you won't be taking any hits unless they attack right away, and those hits will not be very powerful at all being unboosted. With 2 free turns of set-up, a lot of pokemon have no counters.

Also I generally don't trust shoddy. It's very glitchy one cannot deny (an unboosted Charizard Overheat OHKOed a Calm Blissey as an example of shoddy's sometimes weird behavior). Not to say that you're wrong ABYAY, but I wouldn't trust shoddy considering it spells "paralyzed" wrong lol.

Also I noticed this too from Azonic's post:

"No Pokemon can switch into Garchomp's SD'd Outrage, except for steel Pokemon"

Again, that's giving Garchomp either 2 free turns of set-up or a turn of set-up and a free hit. Garchomp has almost no counters, but let's not get ridiculous. By this logic Swords Dance Gallade is uncounterable since nothing can take a boosted hit from it, and what can't is slower and gets killed on the second turn.

 

[Aurafire]

We can desperately search high and low for a legitimate garchomp counter...only to find out that there ISN'T ONE.

Cloyster automatically fails because it will, in all likelihood, get 2HKO'd by SD outrage. Even if it can use icicle spear, there's clearly no certainty of a OHKO.

Basically it comes down to predicition or having a reliable defensive steel wall on your team. And in most cases that still won't cut it. A SD outrage takes prediction totally out of the equation. Which is why it has no true counter, which is why it should be moved to UBERS.

Oh, did I mention Sand Veil?

 

[ABYAY]

Well Anti, Colin's an idiot for that one *Modifies coding so on the server it says "Paralyzed"* ^^

However, that is for Shoddy only, as I stated. Someone do a wifi match with a Skill Link Cloyster and a Yachechomp, if there is one.

 

[sims796]

Wait a sec...

You would have to be an absolute fool to give Garchomp a potential 2 turns set up, if I understand what you're saying correctly. You switch in while it Swords Dances up, so while you'll come in and it'll have +2 Atk, but you won't be taking any hits unless they attack right away, and those hits will not be very powerful at all being unboosted. With 2free turns of set-up, a lot of pokemon have no counters..

Wait, two free turns? How is that? It only takes one turn to charge up, and it will have a boosted attack from it. You switch in while it SDup, and they will hit with a boosted attack, amirite?

 

[Spazzy]

So far what I see is that everyone thinks Garchomp should be uber, except a few people that think as long as you have a team of all base 105+speed beneficial nature UUs with Ice Attacks, Garchomp is doomed. Sadly, if you have a team consisting of the following, then you're screwed anyway.
CB/LO Aerodactyl with Ice Fang (Unboosted it doesn't ohko Yache Berry or no Yache Berry), Frosslass, Manectric with HP Ice, Jinx, Ice Fang Sharpedo with a Choice Scarf, and Ice Punch Lopunny
Unless that amazing team thar is considered a valid reason otherwise, Garchomp should be uber.


Excuse me while I teach my Sharpedo Ice Fang, give it a Choice Scarf, breed a new Manectric, find a Jinx, a Lopunny, and a Frosslass, and put my Aerodactyl back on my team. Peace out.

 

[Anti]

Wait, two free turns? How is that? It only takes one turn to charge up, and it will have a boosted attack from it. You switch in while it SDup, and they will hit with a boosted attack, amirite?

Yes, I must have read your post wrong.

I still don't get why people aren't worried about CBchomp more than SDchomp since it hits harder, faster, especially since the metagame revenge kills SDchomp so I don't really see the point >_>

 

[sims796]

Well, I'm nertrual, but I was speaking only on Cloyster as a Chomp counter. So...yeah.