Gay Rights Debate

[Kim]

I'm for gay rights, and gay marriage being legal. Though, I wouldn't force a church to call it "marriage," or at least have religion a part of it if it doesn't want to BE a part of it. But they should still have the benefits heterosexual married couples have.

In the United States, we have Seperation of Church and State. Therefore, anything saying 'The Bible says, blah blah" is completely unacceptable. I don't care what your Bible says--I don't follow it, nor does anyone else have to follow it. That's what Seperation of Church and State is all about.

I have a very good male gay friend. How do I have the right, as a straight woman, to tell him "No, sorry, pal, but you can never be legally recognized with your partner because you're gay?" What right does ANYONE have to tell someone to stop doing something if it hurts absolutely NO ONE?

Someone made an issue of "it completely demeans the meaning of marriage." well bucko, is the love between you and your wife now meaningless if Adam and Steve got legally recognized? Do you cease to want your wife sexually, cease to love her, cease to respect her, cease to care for her at all, because 2 people you don't even know and probably will never meet somewhere in another area of the country wed? Why the hell would you CARE enough about something so trivial that you say "it demeans marriage?" Worry about your own marriage.

This world would be a lot better off if everyone just stfu and minded their own business, instead of telling others how to better theirs.

 

[Greed]

I have to agree with Kim.

Its not fair that a woman that met a man five minutes ago and is allowed to marry him, yet two men who have known eachother in a long time and actually -have feelings- for eachother are not allowed to do so. :/

The world would indeed be better off if religious beliefs weren't so strongly supported. ._.;

 

[Steve Z]

hey ya know what they are humaan and need love too no matter if its male or female i support same sex marrige

 

[Red530]

I'm not against it. I don't think there's anything wrong with homosexuals.

 

[Kim]

I have to agree with Kim.

Its not fair that a woman that met a man five minutes ago and is allowed to marry him, yet two men who have known eachother in a long time and actually -have feelings- for eachother are not allowed to do so. :/

The world would indeed be better off if religious beliefs weren't so strongly supported. ._.;

Exactly right.

We have seperation of Church and State, but apparnetly it isn't enforced. LIttle seedlings of religion are in a lot of laws and bans and all this other stuff, and it should NOT be. A lot of debates--abortion, marriage, gay-rights, you name it. Religion is usually heavily involved, whereas it should not be. Fact and fiction, not religion, is what matters.

 

[Psycho]

'Tis elementary to castigate the shoes that one has never promenade in.

So many Straw Man, ad hominem, Appeal to belief, Argumentum ad nauseam, argumentum ad logicam, and Argumentum ad numerum: What a pity of a debate this is.

My predilection on this issue is perceptible, despite my own philosophy, I do opine that religion should not be coerced upon any living being.

However, I have no discomposure for the "love is love" or "gender doesn't matter" arguments, as they are just as dogmatic and nongermane as stating "It is wrong because the Bible says so." Both sides are biased, compelled by their own beliefs and views of love (which has yet to be indefinitely defined precisely), implicating that there is no impartial stance. Calling this a debate any further would be pointless and an insult to debating in general, as neither side will cease to altercate, and the so-called points that have been made are just as partisan - this is more along the lines of "The state your oppinion on Gay Marriage" thread. The only arguments worthy of acknowledgement are "Seperation of Church and State", "Human Rights", and "It is unnatural/natural" (which has yet to be fully verified). Bringing any religious text, as well as your oppinion, into a debate, of this sort, to corroborate one's position is nonsensical and vain, whereas everyone does not live by the same decorum of life as you do and your thesis is not apatheitc or ipso facto.

I have no concern for someone who wishes to be amalgamated to one of coequal gender, considering that there are more importunate affairs that call for my attention. I find this whole matter to be trivial; our bureaucracy's priorities should be re-evaluated, as there are much more crucial problems that they could be focusing on.

In conclusion, whether or not I support gay marriage or deem it to be moral should not matter, as if two people wish to be married then it is not my palaver, nor shall I make it. Outside of religion, factually and by definition, marriage is only a tradition, recognition from the government of a legal union or relationship; not a unification of two amorous individuals, metaphysically and psychologically, sanctioned by God. If two people desire to have apperception of their relationship from the government, then so be it.

Psycho

 

[LelandLancaster]

My personal belief is that people aren't born like that so it shouldn't be grouped into same discrimination groups like race or gender. So I don't believe that "gay" people should have special rights. Obviously a lot of people don't share this view but hey, you know, people believe different things. It annoys me that there are so many people that claim to be open minded but then can't even try to listen to what the opposing group might think. But, whatever, think what you want.

 

[Allstories]

It's supposed to be about giving them equal rights, not special rights.

 

[Psycho]

Technically, they do have equal rights. A homosexual man may venture out and marry any woman of his choice, just as a heterosexual man. However, neither can venture out and marry one of the same-sex; vice versa for women. It could be defined as special rights once taken from that perspective. :\

Psycho

 

[Greed]

If a woman can marry a man just for fun, then shouldn't I be able to marry another woman just for fun as well? :/

Men and women are both humans why shouldn't they be able to marry even if they're of the same gender?

Marriage is not taken seriously anymore, so there's no point in letting only a man and a woman marry.

 

[Gohan]

Yay! One of the better debate topics!

I'l start off with the Bible thing.

Okay first of all, not everyone follows the Bible. The book was written a long time ago. And if it's so special, why do they keep re-writing it, if it's so perfect, and blah? I'm Protestant, so I don't really care about the book.

Next, if a man can love a woman, who is another human being, why can't he love a man, who is also a human being? I mean, they just don't think, 'Hey, I like that guy, and since I'm gay, I'll go marry him.'

Most homosexual couples have known each other for a while. They start out as friends, and just cross over that(stupid) imaginary line without noticing. It's just like being friends.

What if Adam didn't end up loving Eve, and fell in love with some other guy? Would we all support homosexual marriage and look down upon heterosexual?

Go Mexico!

It's creepy how some Catholic(sp?) Churches won't wed homosexuals. I mean, doesn't the Bible say we should all be treated as equals? Really, does it? *blank stare*

Wow, we made it this far without it being closed. Miracle, isn't it?

/sarcasm

 

[AuroPervert]

I think this is a non-issue.

The constitution states that everyone is born with equal rights.

Why should your sexuality take away from those rights?

 

[Kim]

My personal belief is that people aren't born like that so it shouldn't be grouped into same discrimination groups like race or gender. So I don't believe that "gay" people should have special rights. Obviously a lot of people don't share this view but hey, you know, people believe different things. It annoys me that there are so many people that claim to be open minded but then can't even try to listen to what the opposing group might think. But, whatever, think what you want.

You aren't born with clothes on, but I'm willing to bet you don't live in a nudist colony.

Do you wear make up? Dress up in nice clothes? Wear shoes? Cut your hair? Fingernails?

 

[Greed]

You aren't born with clothes on, but I'm willing to bet you don't live in a nudist colony.

Do you wear make up? Dress up in nice clothes? Wear shoes? Cut your hair? Fingernails?

Good one. ; )

I am pretty open minded, I'm willing to hear what the other side has to say. It just that I don't see why should they label homosexuals as "wrong" and "immoral".

Its just sad that some people judge others for their preferences.

I honestly also don't really believe in "gays are born gay" stuff. I'm gay myself, but I will admit there were times when I saw a man and thought "d***, he's pretty sexy".

Marriage is a personal decision, it shouldn't be biased on gender only.

 

[Kim]

Good one. ; )

I am pretty open minded, I'm willing to hear what the other side has to say. It just that I don't see why should they label homosexuals as "wrong" and "immoral".

Its just sad that some people judge others for their preferences.

I honestly also don't really believe in "gays are born gay" stuff. I'm gay myself, but I will admit there were times when I saw a man and thought "d***, he's pretty sexy".

Marriage is a personal decision, it shouldn't be biased on gender only.

Good points yourself. I have bisexual and gay friends who will argue that they are born that way, and some say no, they aren't/weren't/whichever is grammatically correct. I won't tell someone they're lying if they say they were or weren't born like that. And I don't see how people say it goes against nature--many, many, MANY animals are homosexual and/or bisexual. The ancient Romans and Greeks "experimented"...only with the rise of Christianity has it become "bad." WHich should tell us all something.

 

[Greed]

That reminds me, I have some Christian friends who I actually get along with and they know about my preference. It angers me that some Christians can't be like that too. I mean I don't hit on them or anything, I respect that perhaps their religion doesn't take homosexuality as the most "good" thing in the world. However some christians just see a lesbian/gay and go all like "OMFG! A GAY, I'M GOING TO GET RAPED" and that pisses me off.

Actually there were two members whom were openly lesbian, one was an admin. She was very respectful of others and was a very respectable person.

That goes to show that just because one is gay doesn't label them inmediately.

Hell, in a way, the majority of the population is at least -a little- homosexual. This was proven by Dr. Kinsey too.

@ Kim: I heard a lot about the Greeks as well. Even in their mythiology there were bisexual gods. Take for example Zeus kidnapping Ganymede and making him his sexual partner. The Greeks were quite open to homosexuality, even encouraged it. (:

 

[AuroPervert]

That reminds me, I have some Christian friends who I actually get along with and they know about my preference. It angers me that some Christians can't be like that too. I mean I don't hit on them or anything, I respect that perhaps their religion doesn't take homosexuality as the most "good" thing in the world. However some christians just see a lesbian/gay and go all like "OMFG! A GAY, I'M GOING TO GET RAPED" and that pisses me off.

Actually there were two members whom were openly lesbian, one was an admin. She was very respectful of others and was a very respectable person.

That goes to show that just because one is gay doesn't label them inmediately.

Hell, in a way, the majority of the population is at least -a little- homosexual. This was proven by Dr. Kinsey too.

@ Kim: I heard a lot about the Greeks as well. Even in their mythiology there were bisexual gods. Take for example Zeus kidnapping Ganymede and making him his sexual partner. The Greeks were quite open to homosexuality, even encouraged it. (:

I'm gay, and all my friends know, and none of them care. I think as we advance further and further it becomes more of a nonissue.

About the Kinsey thing though, I think you should take that with a grain of salt. Kinsey conducted his sexual research in all male prisons, I think that it's safe to say that same sex liasons would occur much more often there than outside with the rest of the world.

 

[Kim]

That reminds me, I have some Christian friends who I actually get along with and they know about my preference. It angers me that some Christians can't be like that too. I mean I don't hit on them or anything, I respect that perhaps their religion doesn't take homosexuality as the most "good" thing in the world. However some christians just see a lesbian/gay and go all like "OMFG! A GAY, I'M GOING TO GET RAPED" and that pisses me off.

Actually there were two members whom were openly lesbian, one was an admin. She was very respectful of others and was a very respectable person.

That goes to show that just because one is gay doesn't label them inmediately.

Hell, in a way, the majority of the population is at least -a little- homosexual. This was proven by Dr. Kinsey too.

@ Kim: I heard a lot about the Greeks as well. Even in their mythiology there were bisexual gods. Take for example Zeus kidnapping Ganymede and making him his sexual partner. The Greeks were quite open to homosexuality, even encouraged it. (:

Yeah, I know some Christians and Catholics who are open and alright with it. And I know some non-religious people who are against it. My mom is Agnostic, and is highly against gays, and while it's annoying to here her say "The only thing I like about Bush is he's against gay marriage"...I can't and won't change her opinion. It's her opinion--it hurts no one. THe people who take action on that opinion are the harmful ones. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but they need to realize that there are some out there for the better good. It demeans no one's relationship or marriage if we allowed two men or two women to marry. If it does, well, then, that's those person's perogative--not mine, and not any gay couple's.

It's been so many years since I've read Greek mythology, and I don't remember Ganymede, but I do know that throughout the times where Rome was the seat of power, a lot of homosexual, bisexual, and hetereosexual relations occurred. It wasn't a big thing for them. A lot of things we consider taboo today were not in earlier times. Why that is, I don't know, other than some bigwigs in Churches and political positions wanting more control by keeping us away from things someone says are "bad."

 

[Greed]

@ AuroPervert: He conducted his research on male prisioners? That's new to me, I didn't knew that. I stand corrected then.

@ Kim: In battles homosexuality between men was highly encouraged. They hoped that by this, they would battle harder against their opponents to impress their male companion. I believe that's how it goes.

P.S. My mom's like that as well, so I understand. ::nods::

 

[DragonTrainer]

Um, about the greeks encouraging homesexuality, I heard or read somewhere that the only reason they did it is because they saw women too lowly to be with and gloryfied other men as they were far superior to women so it was yes, encouraged because of that.