Greninja [SM OU]

[Sirfetch’d]

Greninja is a very powerful and fast Pokemon with good mixed offensive stats, a wide movepool which includes access to Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, U-turn, Spikes, Ice Beam, Gunk Shot, Grass Knot, Extrasensory, and Low Kick. Not to mention that it has STAB on every one of these moves in it's ability, Protean. Greninja was banned to Ubers last generation due to not truly being able to prepare for it alongside the offensive pressure it provides. While new threats that can deal with it a bit better have come into play, Greninja still is a huge threat and can pressure many teams.

aaaaaaaaaaaand Greninja has a second ability in Battle Bond. This allows you to transform into Ash-Greninja upon KOing a mon. Greninja gets a boost in stats and becomes a very powerful threat despite not having Protean.

What are your thoughts on Greninja? Do you feel like it's a bit too powerful for the OU tier?

 

[gimmepie]

I mean, it's going to be a lot more of a problem once Pheromosa gets banned but I'm not really sure it's Ubers material. Even with Battle Bond, I think Protean is still better and its got to worry about threats like the Tapus or Xurkitree that it just can't switch into.

 

[Nah]

Ash-Greninja is a Mega Evolution that doesn't eat up your mega slot and isn't required to hold a mega stone in order to change form. You also still have to guess what it's running, like last gen.

That alone sounds like enough for a suspect test (though not necessarily a ban) to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Sirfetch’d]

I mean, it's going to be a lot more of a problem once Pheromosa gets banned but I'm not really sure it's Ubers material. Even with Battle Bond, I think Protean is still better and its got to worry about threats like the Tapus or Xurkitree that it just can't switch into.

Ash Greninja never really was threatened by Pheromosa. Sure, it couldn't switch into it, but it could easily KO it with Water Shuriken unless it had a Quiver Dance boost up(and still could with 5 hits iirc). As Nah said, Ash Greninja is a glorified Mega. It doesn't take up your Mega slot and you can equip an item like Choice Scarf or Specs. Protean Greninja has a plethora of viable moves and is the best offensive Spiker in the tier. It's incredibly pressuring to teams and has an easy time fitting onto just about any team.

I can see arguments for both sides though, I just feel like OU would be healthier without it.

 

[punkysaur]

I like the fact that we can get a choice specs boost w/o the item.Also it seems more easy with greninja to activate battle bond as it has the moves and sp.atk to insta kill half of the meta if (caught on switch).

 

[gimmepie]

I can see arguments for both sides though, I just feel like OU would be healthier without it.

At the least I'm not against a suspect test. I'm just not sure a ban is necessarily justified. Especially when (although correct me if I'm wrong) it would mean losing yet another of the few mon in the tier that can actually hurt Megagross.

 

[Sirfetch’d]

At the least I'm not against a suspect test. I'm just not sure a ban is necessarily justified. Especially when (although correct me if I'm wrong) it would mean losing yet another of the few mon in the tier that can actually hurt Megagross.

It has an OK matchup vs Metagross but has to watch out for Hammer Arm and is severely damaged by Earthquake. But maybe both should go in all honesty. Metagross could even arguably be more of an issue. If Metagross goes though, then Lele has to I guess.

Lots of potentially broken mons

 

[gimmepie]

It has an OK matchup vs Metagross but has to watch out for Hammer Arm and is severely damaged by Earthquake. But maybe both should go in all honesty. Metagross could even arguably be more of an issue. If Metagross goes though, then Lele has to I guess.

Lots of potentially broken mons

That's sort of my problem here. There's always going to be a couple of mons that are more powerful/centralising than others. We even divide tiers into viability rankings because of this. Are we really going to ban every single Pokemon that A+ or S-Rank? By the end of the year OU won't exist anymore and we'll jump straight from UU to Ubers.

^Hyperbole there but I think you get my point xD

 

[FeraligatrMaster]

Greninja with Protean is more busted than it looks. But if Smogon plans to suspect it, they should also look at Ash-Greninja, because whether that is busted or not is arguable. With that said, they should give voters the additional option to ban Protean instead if Greninja. If this option wins, then Froakie, Frogadier, and Kecleon will become unvialbe in lower tiers, but it's not like they were that good to begin with.

If Protean is banned, and Ash-Greninja does turn out to be busted, Smogon could revoke the Protean ban, and ban Greninja as a whole instead.

 

[Nah]

but it could easily KO it with Water Shuriken unless it had a Quiver Dance boost up(and still could with 5 hits iirc).

For whatever reason, Water Shuriken is programmed to always hit 3 times in Ash-Gren form (and the base power goes from 15 to 20).

 

[Christos]

I think both Protean and Ash Greninja are very good and if ever gets suspected and then banned, it should be for both of them.

Protean Greninja is versatile, but once Battle Bond Greninja knocks out a Pokémon and changes forms, it gets crazy offensive boosts (1.5x, so even non-Water/Dark moves are as powerful as Protean Greninja's) and a speed boost, and it also has access to a decent priority move in Water Shuriken. You can play around this by not letting it kill any Pokémon and not giving your opponent the opportunity to switch it in easily but it's still a pain to deal with.

Battle Bond Greninja looks like it's more fun to use than Protean so I'd like to use it at one point.

 

[Sirfetch’d]

For whatever reason, Water Shuriken is programmed to always hit 3 times in Ash-Gren form (and the base power goes from 15 to 20).

I actually did not know this. Makes sense though I guess because I've never actually seen it hit anything but 3

 

[wolf]

Greninja was very widely agreed to be broken in ORAS OU (82% majority). From what I can tell, the only notable checks that were introduced in SM OU are Tapu Koko and Toxapex. I'm doubtful that they're enough to change the outcome.

That's sort of my problem here. There's always going to be a couple of mons that are more powerful/centralising than others. We even divide tiers into viability rankings because of this. Are we really going to ban every single Pokemon that A+ or S-Rank? By the end of the year OU won't exist anymore and we'll jump straight from UU to Ubers.

^Hyperbole there but I think you get my point xD

While it's true that there will always be centralizing Pokemon, Greninja stands out as being fantastic at both breaking and sweeping. Usually if a Pokemon is good at breaking, it's relatively easy to revenge kill (see: Lele, Bulu, Hoopa-U, Manaphy, etc). Pokemon that can wreck both offense and balance/stall are hard to come by. M Meta and Mawile sort of follow under this category as well, but both use up a Mega slot, Meta is more predictable, and Mawile has to rely on Sucker Punch.

After all the bans, ORAS OU was pretty balanced near the end of its lifespan, where Clef, Lando, Latios, Keldeo, etc. were the metagame-defining Pokemon. Not many people thought they were broken.