HG/SS : The competitive discussion.

Anti said:
I'm not ignoring the facts, I'm saying that Hariyama is hardly viable at all in OU play and sees almost no usage, so why even bring it up? Yeah that's one more thing it beats, but it's so rare that it's not even notable. If you want to act like I'm being selective to support my argument, you can, but you can't actually be implying that Hariyama is relevant to Weavile's effectiveness in the metagame in any way, shape, or form? An obscure UU Pokemon doesn't mean anything. Scizor and the OU Steels do, but not Hariyama.

"Why even bring it up?" <--- Maybe because it was the best Weavile counter? Just because it's not common doesn't mean you have to completely disregard it. Instead of jumping onto that, how about you take the time to notice the Steel-types. Picking apart weak links in an argument doesn't mean you're side is any more valid than mine. And yes, Hariyama IS relevant to Weavile's effectiveness in the metagame. I don't care if it's not common, if you ever see a Hariyama, you can rest assure knowing Low Kick will be defeating it. Why are you deciding to argue against facts?

And no, I'm not ignoring Metagross, Scizor, or Bronzong. First of all, Weavile can't beat either one if they have Bullet Punch, which is always on Scizor and is on over half of Metagross. But I never disagreed that Weavile hits them way harder than before. All I said was that Hariyama is ridiculous to bring up (it is) because of how irrelevant it is in the grand scheme of things. I'm not arguing against D_A's entire argument since I don't disagree with all of it. I "ignored" them because I'm not arguing that point. The only thing I said was that Hariyama is not relevant. Wow, I'm repeating myself, but come on. And no, Hariyama was never the best Weavile counter. Skarmory is better for sure...not like it really matters, but I never knew Hariyama was ever in any Weavile discussion to be honest.

Okay this was quite odd. Of course Weavile can't beat them with Bullet Punch, the point is that neither of them can reliably switch-in twice with Stealth Rock on the field, which is huge. It's just like Tyranitar killing Hippowdon or killing Swampert over the course of two turns. Also, I find it quite funny you say Skarmory is a better Weavile counter. Surely you kid :classic:

I don't get why you think this, so you'll have to elaborate. But Weavile's job is to revenge kill. As a pure revenge killer, how does Low Kick help it do its job better? That's what I'm getting at. Low Kick matters for making Weavile more effective as far as not being dead weight is concerned and making an impact on the battle, but as far as revenge killing is concerned (AKA the only reason people use Weavile to begin with given its horrid disadvantages), Low Kick doesn't help it. That's all I'm arguing lol.

No, you don't get this. Weavile's job is to revenge kill yes, but it can also hit things hard because Weavile kind of has a Base 120 Attack stat. Low Kick does help it get by its counters, automatically making it more viable. I'm not saying it's going to become a standard. You took a single comment made by D_A and we ended up with this. The point is, as soon as something can get by its counters, it becomes more viable because less things stop it...I feel like I'm arguing with someone from Marriland ;__; And this is sad because I know you're better than that.

Now let's recap so you don't misunderstand what I'm saying again:

- Low Kick helps hit Weavile's counters for more damage, though it often won't beat them (Metagross, Scizor, sometimes Bronzong). And of course, you have to predict very well to make use out of it. This is true with any CBer, but it is especially true for something as SR weak, frail, and relied on (as all revenge killers are in most cases) as Weavile.

Stealth Rock will not always be on the field, but yes, Low Kick does defeat Scizor over the course of two switch-ins with SR on the field (since apparently it is always up!)

- You can't argue that this will somehow make Weavile better at its job. It will make it more of a pain to stop, but it doesn't actually help it revenge kill at all.

It makes Weavile more viable because less things stop it. It may still have 102994 checks, but at least it doesn't have 102995 checks.

If you want to disagree with me, disagree with one of those two points...or I guess that Hariyama shouldn't even be mentioned, but you have to realize that that's a slippery slope given how many obscure UU Pokemon can counter a few top threats (not like Weavile is a top threat or really even a threat at all with Scizor always running around). I still have no idea how you can hype Weavile more now when it still isn't very good at the one job it's supposed to do.

You're.Making.This.Way.More.Complicated.Than.It.Should.Be.

Pokemon A gets __

__ lets Pokemon A beat most of its counters

Pokemon A has less true counters

Pokemon A becomes more viable.

I know what you're saying, you're making it sound like I don't. I DO know what you're saying, and you DO know what I'm saying, but you're ignoring it just so you can bash on Weavile.
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LUCY IN THE SKYYYYY WITH DIAMONDS. LUCY IN THE SKYYYY WITH DIAMONDS.
 
I'm not deciding to argue against facts, I'm arguing that the facts you've presented aren't relevant/notable to the discussion. I mean I guess Hariyama has a tiny impact since it will show up very rarely, but we're looking at the big picture. I'm not saying Low Kick isn't helpful for Hariyama if the stars align and you come across it, but why even bring up something so obscure? Because it's the "best" Weavile counter? I mean Water Absorb Quagsire with 252HP/252SDef is probably the best Kyogre counter in the game but it's irrelevant for a reason... If you want to disagree with that, fine, but please don't say that I'm somehow arguing against the facts since I'm really not lol.

Beating something over two switch-ins is pretty meaningless if you ask me...especially when you have to predict perfectly for that to happen. And I don't even want to hear about Stealth Rock since most of D_A's calculations make the same assumptions. But I'm talking about beating your counters, not hampering them or doing a good chunk of damage to them. I don't really think that's relevant - if you do, I'm not going to argue with you since that's just personal opinions that are never going to change I guess. But again, don't act like I'm in denial of the facts. I know them, I just don't agree with the conclusion D_A made. Likewise, I don't think doing slightly more to your checks and downright beating a couple of them makes Weavile any more viable. It makes it more effective, but not more viable as a revenge killer. This is why I think you're not understanding my argument - you seem to think (though maybe I'm wrong, I don't want to put words in your mouth) that I'm saying that Weavile isn't going to improve from this or be better because of it. All I'm saying is that it will not make Weavile better at its job. Weavile's job isn't luring Steels (and even though it can do that now with Low Kick, it would compromise its revenge killing abilities due to a wrong prediction losing you the game unless you had a back-up revenge killer); Weavile's job is revenge killing, and Low Kick does not help with that at all. It helps make Weavile a more effective all-around Pokemon.

I think you're thinking that by viable I mean all-around good. By viable I mean good at its job, or a viable choice to do something. In Anti's world, viable and effective are different. I don't think I did a very good job (if any at all) explaining that =\ I would agree with everything you said if viable was replaced with effective, for the most part. Given that, I really don't think we disagree on much except Hariyama lol.

But no, Low Kick doesn't make Weavile better at its job. That's what I was disagreeing with in the first place (and if you want to call that being picky with D_A's word choice, I guess you could say that, but I took what he said as "Weavile is now a better choice because of Low Kick" which I disagree with because you choose Weavile to Ice Shard and Pursuit things).

Oh, and I do love hating on Weavile hahaha. But when it's hyped that's what I pay myself to do kekeke
 
Anti said:
I'm not deciding to argue against facts, I'm arguing that the facts you've presented aren't relevant/notable to the discussion. I mean I guess Hariyama has a tiny impact since it will show up very rarely, but we're looking at the big picture. I'm not saying Low Kick isn't helpful for Hariyama if the stars align and you come across it, but why even bring up something so obscure? Because it's the "best" Weavile counter? I mean Water Absorb Quagsire with 252HP/252SDef is probably the best Kyogre counter in the game but it's irrelevant for a reason... If you want to disagree with that, fine, but please don't say that I'm somehow arguing against the facts since I'm really not lol.

You are arguing against facts. Low Kick makes Weavile more viable since its counters are gone. No, I'm not saying it makes it a better revenge killer, that's what you said. You applied your logic to my argument. With less sure-fire counters, Weavile has an easier time time unleashing attacks. This is a fact.

Beating something over two switch-ins is pretty meaningless if you ask me...especially when you have to predict perfectly for that to happen.

False. Beating something over two switch-ins is the difference between your opponent's Weavile check being alive and able to switch-in...and your opponent's Weavile check risking being killed, and your opponent have to start predicting (which means they are always in a disadvantage. Having to predict means you are in a tough situation). This is a fact.

And I don't even want to hear about Stealth Rock since most of D_A's calculations make the same assumptions. But I'm talking about beating your counters, not hampering them or doing a good chunk of damage to them. I don't really think that's relevant - if you do, I'm not going to argue with you since that's just personal opinions that are never going to change I guess. But again, don't act like I'm in denial of the facts. I know them, I just don't agree with the conclusion D_A made.

I know what you're saying, but the point still stands: Weavile is now not completely stopped by Hariyama, Scizor, and Metagross. This means that it is more viable as a Pokemon itself, not necessarily a revenge killer. It doesn't matter if its viability went up .0001%, it still went up.

Likewise, I don't think doing slightly more to your checks and downright beating a couple of them makes Weavile any more viable.

Less checks doesn't make something more viable? I guess Aqua Tail didn't make Tyranitar anymore viable...Actually it did, since it allowed Tyranitar to 2HKO everything on your traditional ObiStall team (and Platinum Obistall by extension).

It makes it more effective, but not more viable as a revenge killer.

I never said this, you said this.

This is why I think you're not understanding my argument - you seem to think (though maybe I'm wrong, I don't want to put words in your mouth) that I'm saying that Weavile isn't going to improve from this or be better because of it. All I'm saying is that it will not make Weavile better at its job. Weavile's job isn't luring Steels (and even though it can do that now with Low Kick, it would compromise its revenge killing abilities due to a wrong prediction losing you the game unless you had a back-up revenge killer); Weavile's job is revenge killing, and Low Kick does not help with that at all. It helps make Weavile a more effective all-around Pokemon.

The last sentence seems to be you realizing what I've been saying the past few posts. Now that you understand I assume this argument can end? And of course it doesn't make it a better revenge killer, we all know this. It doesn't take a genius to realize this. Aqua Tail didn't make Tyranitar a better trapper, but it did make it a better Pokemon overall, destroying it's number one counter in Hippowdon.

I think you're thinking that by viable I mean all-around good. By viable I mean good at its job, or a viable choice to do something. In Anti's world, viable and effective are different. I don't think I did a very good job (if any at all) explaining that =\ I would agree with everything you said if viable was replaced with effective, for the most part. Given that, I really don't think we disagree on much except Hariyama lol.

I know what you mean. I don't think you know what I mean. Oh, and sorry, but this is not Anti's World, this is Pokecommunity Strategies and Movesets =/

But no, Low Kick doesn't make Weavile better at its job. That's what I was disagreeing with in the first place (and if you want to call that being picky with D_A's word choice, I guess you could say that, but I took what he said as "Weavile is now a better choice because of Low Kick" which I disagree with because you choose Weavile to Ice Shard and Pursuit things).

You're arguing with yourself. I never said it made Weavile a better revenge killer. Of course Low Kick doesn't make it any better than Pursuit. It makes it overall more effective as a Pokemon, thus making it more Weavile.

Oh, and I do love hating on Weavile hahaha. But when it's hyped that's what I pay myself to do kekeke

You hyped Electivire, you cannot talk :P
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THERE ARE PLACES I REMEMBER. ALL MY LIIIIIIIFE, THOUGH SOME HAVE CHANGED. SOME FOR WORSE AND SOME FOR BETTER. SOME HAVE GOOOOOONE, AND SOME REMAINED.
 
Long explanation in spoiler, but you'll probably get more out of my post by just skipping to the two brief bottom paragraphs lol.

Spoiler:


I'll ask you this: How does Low Kick make Weavile a more viable revenge killer? If your answer is that it doesn't or the difference is not significant or notable, then you agree with me.

The whole point of me responding to D_A's argument was that yeah, Low Kick helps Weavile do much more damage to its old counters and checks, but it doesn't make it a more favorable option than it was before because it still has numerous disadvantages, and it's no better at the job that it's supposed to do - revenge kill. That's why I don't think Low Kick will have much of an impact unless you use Weavile for a luring role, and then you're not using it to revenge kill and so its viability is completely redefined.
 
Can I just say that reasoned debates such as this one are one of the thinks that makes S&M awesome?
 
Totally ignoring the fact that Pokemon like Barboach and Crawdaunt got moves like Dragon Dance, I'm genuinely excited for some of these changes. The move tutors are kind of eh, but the egg moves are A+. Water Spout Octillery!!!

I wish I had the ability to make drawn out debates about Pokemon too, but I guess that's why I'm not that good overall.

Also, did we really need a STRING SHOT move tutor ~_~
 
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Anti said:
The whole point of me responding to D_A's argument was that yeah, Low Kick helps Weavile do much more damage to its old counters and checks, but it doesn't make it a more favorable option than it was before because it still has numerous disadvantages, and it's no better at the job that it's supposed to do - revenge kill. That's why I don't think Low Kick will have much of an impact unless you use Weavile for a luring role, and then you're not using it to revenge kill and so its viability is completely redefined.
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^ I agree with this for the most part. Low Kick helps Weavile a bit, but not significantly.

Britney Spears said:
Also, did we really need a STRING SHOT move tutor ~_~
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Yes, it is a CRITICAL move in today's metagame! >:O
 
Dark_Azelf said:
Well maybe if used it, you wouldnt get schooled by Bliss Skarm every time lolol :x

I actually really cant wait untill these changes are on shoddy. So much ore to make stall all the more annoying. ^_~
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Excuse me? I do believe I won that battle >:

Lol, we actually need a shoddy server first ;_________;
 
Anti said:
Long explanation in spoiler, but you'll probably get more out of my post by just skipping to the two brief bottom paragraphs lol.

You've got to be kidding me lol. Let me say this one more time. When I say viable I mean viable as a revenge killer ONLY, so stop arguing against my points as if I mean viable as in all-around effectiveness. That basically answers everything you just said. If you knew what I meant like you claimed, you wouldn't have said what you did lol. I would argue against all of your points (and if you want me to I really will), but I essentially agree with you, which is ironic haha. You think you understand my post, but I assure that that if that was actually true your post would have been a lot different. I agree, Low Kick helps Weavile hurt its checks (though I stand by it not beating all of them, and I guess we do disagree there), but it does not make Weavile a more viable revenge killer (which is why you put it on your team), but it makes it more effective overall (just not, as I just said, at revenge killing).

Haha, I know exactly what you are saying. You are making this too complicated. I know that Weavile's most popular role is a revenge killer, but you see my friend, WEAVILE DOES NOT ONLY HAVE PURSUIT AS A MOVE. It is still an extraordinarily fast Pokemon with a very high Attack. These stats make it into an offensive Pokemon, and offensive Pokemon has checks that keep it from being more effective, now it gets Low Kick and is a more viable Pokemon. I'm not even speaking about Weavile's job, it's role, it's nothing. I'm talking about WEAVILE THE POKEMON, NOT WEAVILE THE REVENGE KILLER.

Weavile having less checks doesn't make Weavile more viable as a revenge killer since its only job is to trap a few things and get a few key kills.

Stop Stop Stop. No one is talking about revenge killing Weavile. You keep thinking like this and you're losing me.

Just like how ScarfTran could have 200 checks for all I care, but as a pure revenge killer it's not actually hurt as long as it still revenge kills the same things it could before - Latias, Lucario, Scizor, etc. When you said "I never said this, you said this" in response to me explaining how I differentiate viability and effectiveness...yeah, that's the point lol. You're arguing against what I'm saying based on how you interpret what I'm saying and not on what I mean, and your post shows that. I know this argument is basically about wording now, but I don't want what I'm trying to say to be misunderstood.

No one is wrong in this argument. What I said and you said is correct. You trying to attack my argument and call it wrong, however, is uncalled for, because you're basically attacking facts which is pretty ridiculous.

I'll ask you this: How does Low Kick make Weavile a more viable revenge killer? If your answer is that it doesn't or the difference is not significant or notable, then you agree with me.

I'll ask you this: When will you realize Weavile's only move is not Pursuit?

The whole point of me responding to D_A's argument was that yeah, Low Kick helps Weavile do much more damage to its old counters and checks, but it doesn't make it a more favorable option than it was before because it still has numerous disadvantages, and it's no better at the job that it's supposed to do - revenge kill.

The fact that it gets past its counters makes it more viable. This is a FACT. No, I'm not talking about a revenge killing Weavile. REPEAT: I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT A REVENGE KILLING WEAVILE. I am talking about Weavile in general, since it's an offensive Pokemon, and offensive Pokemon has checks that stop it. Low Kick beats on most of said checks. It becomes more viable since less things stop it. I know the disadvantages of Weavile, just as you do.

That's why I don't think Low Kick will have much of an impact unless you use Weavile for a luring role, and then you're not using it to revenge kill and so its viability is completely redefined.

See, you're getting it now. Take Weavile for a Pokemon, not for a revenge killer or whatever you got going on in your mind. NO, LOW KICK DOES NOT MAKE REVENGE KILLER WEAVILE MORE EFFECTIVE. I know this just as well as you know this, but Low Kick does stop a good portion of Weavile's counters, meaning it can go on the offensive easier. Surely this makes it more viable? SR weakness, fragility, etc...aside.
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Aurafire said:
^ I agree with this for the most part. Low Kick helps Weavile a bit, but not significantly.
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Now Anti, why can't you just do like Aurafire did and understand that Low Kick does help Weavile. Of course it's not going to help it significantly, Weavile's role is a revenge killer, BUT, with the addition of Low Kick most of its counters cannot switch-in willy nilly for free. That makes it more viable on its own.
 
Bedlam Beldum said:
Now Anti, why can't you just do like Aurafire did and understand that Low Kick does help Weavile. Of course it's not going to help it significantly, Weavile's role is a revenge killer, BUT, with the addition of Low Kick most of its counters cannot switch-in willy nilly for free. That makes it more viable on its own.
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In essence that really is what Anti said. Low Kick makes Weavile more effective against his counters but not at revenge killing which he believes to be the only reason you'd even consider using Weavile. (I personally still don't see enough reason to use it)

Though I did enjoy reading your guys' discussion :)


Super Fang is making me wish all the more that Crobat wasn't stuck in BL though I doubt it helped it's chances at returning to UU. I must say I am excited for Super Fang and interested to see if there will be any sort of spikage in clerics (after the whole experimentation and theorymons period ends). Especially with Roserade and it's toxic spikes running around stall.


And String Shot's an amazing edition! Look at the damage pokemon such as Metapod have been doing with it for all this time! I just fear that Metapod usage might drop a little now that other pokemon can use this amazing move!
 
Waffle-San said:
In essence that really is what Anti said. Low Kick makes Weavile more effective against his counters but not at revenge killing which he believes to be the only reason you'd even consider using Weavile. (I personally still don't see enough reason to use it)
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This. I was basically saying that yes, Low Kick help and it makes Weavile better/less sucky (though still sucky), but there are so many better revenge killers that it doesn't matter, at least in my opinion, in the grand scheme of things. I disagree with you when you say that Weavile is an offensive Pokemon since people use it only to use Pursuit and Ice Shard. It can do other things, but other Pokemon do stuff like SD way way better. You can say "no one is talking about revenge killing Weavile" or "Weavile's only move isn't Pursuit" all you want, but that's the only job it's even remotely good at/Pursuit is the only reason people use it--without Pursuit no one would care about Weavile--so why would you talk about any other set? And yes, I know Low Kick makes the revenge killer better than it was with Brick Break, but it still doesn't give it any kind of advantage over other revenge killers and doesn't fix Weavile's fundamental problems, which is why I rejected the conclusion of D_A's post to begin with and why I still don't feel Low Kick is significant despite making Weavile better. Ironically, I basically agree with every single thing you've said and I haven't disagreed with almost any of it except the stuff bashing my argument...

Anyway, love all the String Shot jokes lol, Actually who knows putting Naive MixMence at 219 Speed as it switches in sounds kind of funny.

But in case my position on Weavile wasn't proof enough, I'm skeptical about the effects of these changes. After all, Dugtrio was supposed to break UU and I guess that never happened, so I'll take the "time will tell" approach for completely new stuff like Super Fang. Of course, Recover is obviously going to help Quagsire a whole lot, so theorymon isn't completely useless.
 
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This. I was basically saying that yes, Low Kick help and it makes Weavile better/less sucky (though still sucky), but there are so many better revenge killers that it doesn't matter, at least in my opinion, in the grand scheme of things. I disagree with you when you say that Weavile is an offensive Pokemon since people use it only to use Pursuit and Ice Shard. It can do other things, but other Pokemon do stuff like SD way way better. You can say "no one is talking about revenge killing Weavile" or "Weavile's only move isn't Pursuit" all you want, but that's the only job it's even remotely good at/Pursuit is the only reason people use it--without Pursuit no one would care about Weavile--so why would you talk about any other set? And yes, I know Low Kick makes the revenge killer better than it was with Brick Break, but it still doesn't give it any kind of advantage over other revenge killers and doesn't fix Weavile's fundamental problems, which is why I rejected the conclusion of D_A's post to begin with and why I still don't feel Low Kick is significant despite making Weavile better. Ironically, I basically agree with every single thing you've said and I haven't disagreed with almost any of it except the stuff bashing my argument...
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Seems like we've come to an understanding...however:

Weavile | Move | Brick Break | 75.9

Weavile | Move | Night Slash | 71.7

Weavile | Move | Pursuit | 39.4
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Weavile is an offensive Pokemon.
 
I'm suprised at the lack of talk about Rotom's and Forretress Pain Split addition. I find that this could be a major help to stall teams, both spin blocker and spinner who have a slightly more reliable form of Recover, although RestTalk Rotom is probably still going to be more popular do to the status recovery.

Forrestress in another story, I've always found that Rest on Forretress can be extremely inneffective, due to the fact that it also needs Spikes/SR, Rapid Spin, Gyro Ball/Earthquake/Explosion, and Rest. The two turn lag is a pain, especially when you get a Heatran or DDMence coming in when you're vulnerable. I think this additon will have a spike in Forry usage.
 
Bedlam Beldum said:
Weavile is an offensive Pokemon.
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Wow, are people clueless or just plain stupid (not you for saying that, people for using Weavile like that)? I have no idea why you would use Weavile without Pursuit. I am actually really taken by surprise with that statistic. I guess the fall of NP Azelf and to a lesser extent Gengar made it less popular but seriously lol? Weavile is a HORRIBLE sweeper, walled by everything, hammered by revenge killers, no bulk, weak to every form of passive damage except hail (rofl), and did I mention Scizor? Man and I thought people were stupid for using Weavile before lol. Now they're not even using what sets it apart from otherwise superior Pokemon. Sounds a lot like lead Aerodactyl to me. rofl!

Eos Aduro said:
I'm suprised at the lack of talk about Rotom's and Forretress Pain Split addition. I find that this could be a major help to stall teams, both spin blocker and spinner who have a slightly more reliable form of Recover, although RestTalk Rotom is probably still going to be more popular do to the status recovery.

Forrestress in another story, I've always found that Rest on Forretress can be extremely inneffective, due to the fact that it also needs Spikes/SR, Rapid Spin, Gyro Ball/Earthquake/Explosion, and Rest. The two turn lag is a pain, especially when you get a Heatran or DDMence coming in when you're vulnerable. I think this additon will have a spike in Forry usage.
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I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that what is still rather unreliable recovery on Forretress is going to make it significantly better. Forretress is basically a stall/semi-stall only type of Pokemon, and it usually has Wish support.I would rather be using that slot to set up a different entry hazard or be able to use Payback with Gyro Ball or Earthquake to hit Rapid Spin blockers. And to be fair, Forretress is really easy to set up on even when it's awake.
 
To be honest, standard Forretress doesn't want to make room for Pain Split. It usually runs Spikes / Rapid Spin / Payback / Toxic Spikes or Stealth Rock or EQ. Pain Split will probably fit in the last slot, but due to its lack of reliability, I don't see it becoming a staple anytime soon. Wish support does it well enough.

@Anti

Yeah those statistics were pretty much the reason I kept this argument going. It was quite embarassing to see people complain about Electivire and such...but not Weavile =/ Are people that clueless?
 
The surprise of the next metagame could be Whiscash, no seriously a beast seems me. Someone has tried him in serious way on some servers of NBS with HG/GS mods and I has to say will find her space among the OU! It has perfect coverage, defended for holding a hit and possibility of killing everything after a pair of dances. Besides it withstands Bullet Punch, and it is not weak to Ice Shard, the two more common priority. He has surprised indeed me. Thing done think of it?

*image removed*
Whiscash (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Anticipation
EVs: 156 HP / 108 Atk / 104 Def / 128 Spd / 12 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge/Spark
 
My lead trio just got more own. :D

Dugtrio@Focus Sash
Nature: Adamant / Jolly
Trait: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Attack / 252 Speed
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Sucker Punch / Stone Edge

This is a slight variant to the LeadTrio set. This grants Dugtrio some enormous power against Pokemon after it's Sash activates. Yes, it does lack STAB, and yes, it does lack a berry to up power, however, with the ability to lock something in, you don't have to worry about using Reversal against a Pokemon such as Gengar, although then again, seeing a Gengar is even better, as it gives you something to use Sucker Punch on. Also, at 1% HP, Reversal has a massive 200 BP, which hits Pokemon extremely hard. I would suggest Adamant over Jolly, as Dugtrio is already fast, and the added power will work great in unison with Reversal. Also, with Sucker Punch available, stuff that would out speed (Fast Psychics and Ghosts) now takes a hard hit with Sucker Punch. The only thing this set does lack now is something to hit Aerodactyl, although if you predict it's attack and use Reversal, you'll be able to get it into KO range for Sucker Punch. Stone Edge can be used if you want to hit stuff like Mence and Gyara, although Duggy doesn't hit them for much anyways after the Intimidate.
 
I don't really see the need for Reversal on Dugtrio, since EQ is basically granting the same coverage, with 50 less BP but without having to go to 1% to become effective. It also doesn't really hit most of Dugtrio's checks any harder than EQ would =/
 
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