HG/SS : The competitive discussion.

[Ooka]

Ambipom, Porygon2, Blissey (For an OHKO now), TTar, Abomosnow, Umbreon, Weavile, Mamo, it gives you at least something to hit Bronzong with, and then of course the 50 added BP. I dunno, I think it's a pretty great addition. :/

 

[Archer]

Ambipom, Porygon2, Blissey (For an OHKO now), TTar, [S-HIGHLIGHT]Abomasnow, [/S-HIGHLIGHT]Umbreon, [S-HIGHLIGHT]Weavile, Mamo[/S-HIGHLIGHT], it gives you at least something to hit Bronzong with, and then of course the 50 added BP. I dunno, I think it's a pretty great addition. :/

I don't know, it can be Sharded or outsped in the above highlighted cases. Besides, there's a lot of priority on leads and otherwise it's rather rampant on most teams. I know it's only supposed to be an Anti-Lead, but chances are, you either Taunt them, get taken down to low HP (remember, if it doesn't do 99%, you've got a pretty weak move on your hands) and hope they don't have priority, or you attack, leaving them to set up SR or whatnot, and you have to wait for them to cut your HP.

It might work, but it's risky.

 

[Ooka]

Well, with Weavile, using Reversal off the bat would be the smart option, I mean, it isn't going to SR, and if it SD, you've still just hit it with a 20 BP 4x effective move, so it's still going to hurt it's low Defense. In Abomasnow's case, you obviously wouldn't be able to beat it straight off, you'd have to come in later with your health already down and fire one off, because the fact that it's slower and has Hail going on, you wouldn't stand a chance. In that case, this would just function the same way Aero would in the same situation, get up Rocks then die, so nothing really lost. Mamo would be tricky, but if it's a lead it's more than likely going for SR first, so you'd be fine to set up yours, then go for the Reversal expecting Ice Shard. After that you could Sucker Punch to finish, which would beat even with it using Ice Shard.

So, personally, I think it could be considered a pretty good suicide lead with a couple of pretty good benefits.

 

[Anti]

Well, with Weavile, using Reversal off the bat would be the smart option, I mean, it isn't going to SR, and if it SD, you've still just hit it with a 20 BP 4x effective move, so it's still going to hurt it's low Defense.

I don't think so:

Reversal:

259 Atk vs 166 Def & 281 HP (20 Base Power): 92 - 112 (32.74% - 39.86%)

Earthquake:

259 Atk vs 166 Def & 281 HP (100 Base Power): 169 - 199 (60.14% - 70.82%)

In other words, Reversal doesn't help with Weavile.

In Abomasnow's case, you obviously wouldn't be able to beat it straight off, you'd have to come in later with your health already down and fire one off, because the fact that it's slower and has Hail going on, you wouldn't stand a chance. In that case, this would just function the same way Aero would in the same situation, get up Rocks then die, so nothing really lost.

In other words, Reversal doesn't help with Abomasnow.

Mamo would be tricky, but if it's a lead it's more than likely going for SR first, so you'd be fine to set up yours, then go for the Reversal expecting Ice Shard. After that you could Sucker Punch to finish, which would beat even with it using Ice Shard.

Why would it SR first though? You can't just assume what the other player would do to make your case lol. If I was using lead Mamoswine and I saw Lead Dugtrio, I'd have to assume it would use SR first due to the threat of Ice Shard, so I'd probably Earthquake it first...and then finish it with Ice Shard, and you're dead. Even if Mamoswine does set up SR first, the threat (though it isn't much of one) of Reversal not to mention Earthquake's higher power should make it use Earthquake instead of Ice Shard, and then it can finish you. So no, Reversal isn't going to help unless the Mamoswine user does what you said they would (as in, they don't know how to use Lead Mamoswine).

In other words, Reversal will rarely help with Mamoswine.

So, personally, I think it could be considered a pretty good suicide lead with a couple of pretty good benefits.

But Reversal isn't one of them...Earthquake is more effective (or at the very very least much more reliable) than Reversal against every single Pokemon on that list. I mean I guess you hit Bronzong for like, no base power, but even Stone Edge is going to do more damage so I mean...what does Reversal actually accomplish? It has coverage all too similar to Earthquake. Stone Edge at least lets Dugtrio do a little damage to Flying-types or something. I would even rather use Toxic to poison Hippowdon and Swampert.

 

[No you fail]

what about an iron defense/rest/counter/metal burst bastidion?

could work well if it get's an iron defense or two in.

 

[wolf]

what about an iron defense/rest/counter/metal burst bastidion?

could work well if it get's an iron defense or two in.

Wouldn't that be set-up fodder for say, Gyarados? Yeah, you can rebound a Waterfall, but it still can easily get 6 DDs, or anything else for that matter. Taunt > Counter would be nice to have.

 

[Malicious Metang]

Anti already outlined why Reversal isn't that great of an addition on Dugtrio. In my opinion, lead Dugtrio should be running Night Slash to cover Azelf and the likes, since EQ and Reversal leaving it helpless against the number 1 lead. Reversal is an addition, and while it does up Dugtrio a tad, it won't find itself on most of Dugtrio's most common sets. Having to get to 1% to be effective really sucks, especially since Dugtrio is still pretty weak overall.

@ Above post

Why would a Bastiodon be met with a Gyarados? You're not making any sense at all.

 

[wolf]

@ Above post

Why would a Bastiodon be met with a Gyarados? You're not making any sense at all.

Because Gyarados can switch-in to about anything Bastiodon has, and get in a free DD (set-up). It is risking coming in on a Taunt, Roar, Toxic, etc which I should have considered. But, once the opponent knows his moveset, Gyarados can switch-into it little to no risk. Unless he is wanting to use it in UU / NU which he didn't specify at all.

 

[Malicious Metang]

Because Gyarados can switch-in to about anything Bastiodon has, and get in a free DD (set-up). It is risking coming in on a Taunt, Roar, Toxic, etc which I should have considered. But, once the opponent knows his moveset, Gyarados can switch-into it little to no risk. Unless he is wanting to use it in UU / NU which he didn't specify at all.

So Bastiodon, being an NU Pokemon, should be assumed to be competing in an OU environment? I understand that Gyarados stop Bastiodon (bar CB Stone Edge!), but saying that Bastiodon will be used in an OU environment is very, very, very silly. He didn't specify that he was using it in any tier, so why would you assume OU?

 

[Dark Azelf]

Sadly even in NU, Probopass is prefered over Bastiodon. Bastiodon is just a mess lol, it cant attack which is its main fault tbh.


And you know what sucks, Duggy doesnt even get Taunt. :[

 

[sims796]

Teeter Dance Plume. AAAAAWWWWWW YEEEEEAAAAAHHH.

 

[Niprop]

Aww, no Curse? Oh well, physical Porygon2 isn't used much anyways...

Lets see what we've got here:

Role-Play...Is almost completely useless for Porygon2, who already has Trace. I suppose you could use it to switch abilities off the bat, but that's a situational thing, and is usually just a waste of a move slot.

Porygon-Z could use it to counter Heatran to an extent, barring its only STAB moves, but is usually too frail to stand up to most of Heatran's other attacks. Role-Play should ONLY (and by ONLY, I mean, if you're willing to experiment with the move and sacrifice a vital move-slot for it) be used on Download Z, as it will get rid of Porygon-Z's bonus if used with Adaptability, where it will retain Downloads up to special attack.

Gravity is...Well, I don't really see a point to Gravity for either of the two, maybe to bring down Magnezone? *Blank*

Pain Split is mostly outclassed by Recover.

In short, nothing really useful for our Cyber Friends in HG/SS :[

 

[Volkner's Apprentice]

My lead trio just got more own. :D

Dugtrio@Focus Sash
Nature: Adamant / Jolly
Trait: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Attack / 252 Speed
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Sucker Punch / Stone Edge

I like Duggy :-D

So Bastiodon, being an NU Pokemon, should be assumed to be competing in an OU environment? I understand that Gyarados stop Bastiodon (bar CB Stone Edge!), but saying that Bastiodon will be used in an OU environment is very, very, very silly. He didn't specify that he was using it in any tier, so why would you assume OU?

Um..you should realize yourself that this thread especially isn't JUST about shoddy. The Wifi environment is almost sometimes considered a wacky playing field in comparison, where people establish teams that aren't completely perfect and often times trainers will use their favorites, even if it means taking huge risks. (We all know Bastiodon can't survive Gyarados. Usually.) Don't assume anything :P

Anyway, I'm looking forward to:

Aqua Jet Gatr (Thoughts on him? Will it help him move up or is it just a semi-useful addition/he's outclassed, lol.)

Super Fang/Head Smash Nidoking (heh.)

Poor Nido, I feel like he could be so great if he only had a decent gimmick to work with.

And what the hell, Flareon...learn Flare Blitz already. XD

 

[Malicious Metang]

Um..you should realize yourself that this thread especially isn't JUST about shoddy. The Wifi environment is almost sometimes considered a wacky playing field in comparison, where people establish teams that aren't completely perfect and often times trainers will use their favorites, even if it means taking huge risks. (We all know Bastiodon can't survive Gyarados. Usually.) Don't assume anything

Oh of course, I forgot that you couldn't use UU Pokemon on the OU ladder on Shoddy :\

I don't see how using logic to defend the viability of a Pokemon is called making an assumption, you're totally right.

 

[Volkner's Apprentice]

Oh of course, I forgot that you couldn't use UU Pokemon on the OU ladder on Shoddy :\

I don't see how using logic to defend the viability of a Pokemon is called making an assumption, you're totally right.

The only reason I said anything at all is because your posting things to basically taunt someone to come up with explanations and reasoning rather than simply saying "Oh, but wait, does he want to use Bastiodon in OU battles? Maybe he should clarify before we talk about what he wants to use it for."

Instead of calling Wolfy on why he's talking about using Taunt instead of Counter, quote the original poster about what tier they meant to use it in.

Not to mention sarcastic slices at people are uncalled for, unless someone is typing with chatspeak. I know everyone has to be on their toes when they say something in S&M regarding strategy, stats, and tactics, but that's no reason for a John McEnroe "you CANNOT be SERIOUS" right back.

Back on topic, I'll add that I'm unsure as to why GF added so much Gravity to the rosters. Have many people stumbled across an occasional Gravity team and if so, do these additions prove worthwhile?

 

[Malicious Metang]

The only reason I said anything at all is because your posting things to basically taunt someone to come up with explanations and reasoning rather than simply saying "Oh, but wait, does he want to use Bastiodon in OU battles? Maybe he should clarify before we talk about what he wants to use it for."

Bastiodon is NU. The poster never mentioned what tier he was being used in. Wolf.'s comment made no sense whatsoever, since he assumed Bastiodon would be used in OU, which makes no sense because, you know, Bastiodon is NU.

Not to mention sarcastic slices at people are uncalled for, unless someone is typing with chatspeak. I know everyone has to be on their toes when they say something in S&M regarding strategy, stats, and tactics, but that's no reason for a John McEnroe "you CANNOT be SERIOUS" right back.

I guess I could've been serious and not be sarcastic, but the fact is my argument holds water, and you should've been worrying about my argument rather my replying style, now shouldn't you have?

Back on topic, I'll add that I'm unsure as to why GF added so much Gravity to the rosters. Have many people stumbled across an occasional Gravity team and if so, do these additions prove worthwhile?

Gravity Gross beats both Rotom and Zapdos with SR, so that's a pretty awesome addition.

EDIT: Wolf. is right though, Counter and Metal Burst is foolish, Taunt is the better option.

 

[Anti]

Okay so, Bastiodon's common uses isn't relevant. I'm tempted to say that the reason for this is because Bastiodon should never be used at all, but since it actually has nothing to do with HG/SS changes at all it would just be splendid if we changed the subject, lol.

...Like to how much these changes are/aren't living up to the hype, now that they're on the ladder and all. This whole thread has been speculation so far, but now that changes are on Smogon, what do you guys think of them? (And yes, I know this was in the DCC, but this thread is better for the topic anyway.)

 

[Malicious Metang]

Okay so, Bastiodon's common uses isn't relevant. I'm tempted to say that the reason for this is because Bastiodon should never be used at all, but since it actually has nothing to do with HG/SS changes at all it would just be splendid if we changed the subject, lol.

...Like to how much these changes are/aren't living up to the hype, now that they're on the ladder and all. This whole thread has been speculation so far, but now that changes are on Smogon, what do you guys think of them? (And yes, I know this was in the DCC, but this thread is better for the topic anyway.)

Aggron = Overhyped, but still very good

AJ Gatr = Overhyped and absolutely AWFUL.

Power Whip Venu = Underhyped and amazing

E-Speed Nite = Overhyped but mediocre

SF Crobat = Annoooooying

DD Crawdaunt = Overhyped and never seen

BB Honchkrow = Medium hype, but very good

NP Miss = Overhyped but still awesome

That's just from my experiences

 

[ABYAY]

[Luvdisc]
Aqua Jet

gg...all there is to it.

Onto serious matters, after scanning over some of the changes, some of the more notable ones I've seen include Brave Bird Honchkrow and the Extremespeed Nite. For Honchkrow, Drill Peck was good, but it wasn't great. With Brave Bird, he can definitely show some strength with two powerful STABs, Superpower to compliment coverage with his STABs, and Pursuit to pick off those trying to retreat. Also, since Honchkrow has decent HP, Brave Bird takes less of a toll on him, though Stealth Rock damage will accumulate quickly with this.

Extremespeed on Dragonite, although it may not look as a very needed thing, can help him in tight situations. It gives him priority, something only Flygon can say it has (Quick Attack lol). This means that it can take on a weakened Mamoswine trying to Ice Shard it, though Weavile will still laugh at you, but that thing is rarely used. I expect this change to at least slightly enhance Dragonite's usage.

Another BIG change I've noticed is Recover on Quaggy. This makes him better than Gastrodon to an extent, supporting Water Absorb as well to make this thing almost never die. This doesn't help him much with Toxic, but it means that in UU, you're gonna need either grass moves or Toxic to take this thing down.

There are many more, but these are the few that are on my mind now. Oh yeah, Farfetch'd can now counter Geodude with the all new Leaf Blade. Usefulness increased by .0001%.

 

[wolf]

I only used Gyarados as an example, it could be applied to any good set up sweeper in a tier that can switch into Bastiodon decently. But, yeah, I do agree I should have assumed it was to be used in its tier. x]