HG/SS : The competitive discussion.

[No you fail]

Quagsire getting Recover is pretty awesome, it could probably go up to UU now <3

Extremespeed is nice on Dragonite but honestly I don't think it's going to get much more usage because of it. An anti-lead could work decently.

NPMismagius is pretty cool, Whiscash gets DD I guess a DDset is viable in NU.

Whiscash @ Leftovers
Nature : Adamant
EV : 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge

Overall there are some nice changes but nothing really significant in my opinion.

lol that is an nu gyarados same moveset,nature,ev's

also anyone else predict a pain split staller cradily being a huge pain in sandstorm team's?

 

[Malicious Metang]

lol that is an nu gyarados same moveset,nature,ev's

also anyone else predict a pain split staller cradily being a huge pain in sandstorm team's?

Actually, Cradily already has Recover, which is more reliable and overall more effective for stalling. It also doesn't require Cradily to minimize its HP for maximum results.

I'm really liking DD Crawdaunt at the moment. It completely obliterates the most common bulky Waters in UU (Milotic and Slowbro) with a STAB Crunch after a Dragon Dance, and also hits most things for high damage with Waterfall, X-Scissor, etc...Might bring it up to UU, and if it does, I can see Tangrowth rising slightly to counter it (which might bring upon an influx of Mixed Crawdaunt with Ice Beam !)

Anyway, Belly Drum Ursaring is ridiculous power-wise. Let's see, with Belly Drum, max Attack, Adamant and Guts, Ursaring has an astounding 2364 Attack stat. To put this into perspective, here are some damage calculations:

+6 Guts Facade vs...

Max HP / Max Def Steelix: 92%-108%
Max HP / Max Def Skarmory: 127%-150%
Max HP / Max Def Aggron: 53%-62%

Insane....But the low Speed and lackluster defenses will keep it from crushing all of our bones with it's paws, thank goodness!

 

[Sebastien Loeb]

With Yawn to Swampert I foresee an immense increase of the Taunt and Grass Knoter in the leads of the teams of DP metagame.

 

[Skip Shot]

Looking at the tutor moves, it looks like Scizor got a higher BP Bug move to toy with- Technician Bug Bite. It totals at 130 Base Power thanks to STAB and Technician iirc, which is higher than X-Scissor. Also can help stop a lot of SubBerry sweeps if it hits an opponent with Bug Bite. I see a lot more usage of Bug Bite Scizor, and maybe even a decrease of Pokemon like SubPetaya Empoleon and whatnot (not like it was used as much anyways in the first place however).

 

[Pokedra]

Skip Shot it actually totals at 135(60+30+45) but yeah Bug Bite >>> X-Scissor, it's more powerful and will screw up SubBerry Pokemon.

Forretress and Rotom-A getting Pain Split is decent and now they can heal with resorting to Rest.

DD Crawdaunt is looking really cool, I'll probably give it a shot on one of my NU teams <3

 

[Painter]

anyone else with me on belly drum ursaring

 

[Salvation]

I just realized something...

Dunsparce + Agility anyone ? After one agility with max speed, dunsparce reaches 414 \o/

It doesnt have to resort to Thunderwave / Body Slam anymore (though the para will prolly be needed anyways) therefore more coverage ^^

 

[wolf]

Looking at the tutor moves, it looks like Scizor got a higher BP Bug move to toy with- Technician Bug Bite. It totals at 130 Base Power thanks to STAB and Technician iirc, which is higher than X-Scissor. Also can help stop a lot of SubBerry sweeps if it hits an opponent with Bug Bite. I see a lot more usage of Bug Bite Scizor, and maybe even a decrease of Pokemon like SubPetaya Empoleon and whatnot (not like it was used as much anyways in the first place however).

Doesn't Bug Bite have 60 BP and X-Scissor has 80?

Edit: Never mind lol, forgot about Technician which makes Bug Bite with 90 BP. :x

 

[Skip Shot]

Doesn't Bug Bite have 60 BP and X-Scissor has 80?

Edit: Never mind lol, forgot about Technician which makes Bug Bite with 90 BP. :x

Actually, as Pokedra said, its 60x 1.5x1.5(STAB). So both of us were wrong, its actually 135 BP.

 

[wolf]

Actually, as Pokedra said, its 60x 1.5x1.5(STAB). So both of us were wrong, its actually 135 BP.

I didn't include STAB though.

 

[The Bringer!]

Am I the only one who noticed super fang walrein?
I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure stalrein would love to have super fang over surf/blizzard =/

 

[Malicious Metang]

Yeah, the sudden surge of Super Fang is going to be very annoying. Sharpedo and Houndoom also got Super Fang, and since Ghost-types have no business switching-in on either of them, it's going to get quite annoying having to sacrifice 50% of one of your Pokemon's HP just to get in on either of these things >__> Some of these changes are awful.

 

[Skip Shot]

I didn't include STAB though.

Oh, ok then.

On the note of Super Fang... It's really going to be a pain to deal with. Steel-types just found it hard to switch in on physical Crobat. Sharpedo and Houndoom can hit everything in the game hard with Super Fang and STAB Crunch/Dark Pulse. Stall Walrein got even harder to deal with. Sub/Protect/Surf or Blizzard/Super Fang? Ouch.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Weavile : Low Kick.

I was talking to bedlam beldum on msn and you know how weavile is pooped all over by steels who arent weak to brick break, actually steels in general, infact scrap the steels, ill just use the term metagame weak. XDD

Anyways, check this :

@Choice Band
252 ATT / 252 SPEED / 6 DEF
Jolly Nature
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
- Night Slash / Ice Punch
- Low Kick

Choice Band Weavile's Low Kick vs some of its main counters.

40.38% - 47.53% : Low Kick vs standard max hp / 12 def Metagross, 47% to 2hko with SR up

44.97% - 52.96% : Low Kick vs Max hp / 80 def neutral Bronzong, 83.83% to 2hko with SR up.

35.59% - 42.09% : Low Kick Vs max hp / 0 def relaxed Forry. Hey, its not the best but its a good chunk of its hp gone and if it comes in again it loses.

38.98% - 46.05%: Low Kick Vs max hp / 0 def careful Forry. 17.03% chance to 2hko with SR.

108.36% - 128.17% Low Kick Vs standard 0 hp / 0 def Heatran.

40.62% - 47.99% : Low Kick vs 76 HP / 252 DEF Hariyama: 60% chance to 2hko with SR up.

44.90% - 53.06% Low Kick vs Max HP / 0 Def Scizor. 2hko with Rocks up.

41.93% - 49.48% Low Kick vs max hp / max def Poliwrath.

And remember Weavile can also Swords Dance and turn many of these into OHKO's with SR up.

Idk, but to me it looks like Weavile looks a whole lot more viable.

 

[Wendle]

I see the use of gravity teams going through the roof.

 

[Anti]

Weavile doesn't seem any more viable to me in any significant way. It still has no Defense, a Stealth Rock/Sandstorm weakness, weak STAB attacks, moveslot syndrome, and it basically has to predict perfectly or it dies. CB Weavile is only going to come in on the revenge for stuff like Latias, Gengar, and Salamence, and using Low Kick to predict a Meta switch-in is insanely risky. CB Weavile is a revenge killer, not an attacker. While Low Kick is better than Brick Break and I'd use it on the revenge killer, Weavile still has trouble damaging all kinds of stuff, and 2HKOs don't really matter when Scizor and Metagross had Bullet Punch.

If you really care about getting KOs, I would run both Night Slash and Ice Punch to make it less of a joke offensively, and then with either Pursuit or Ice Shard (or even LO + SD, even though SD Weavile is pretty mediocre). Weavile's main disadvantages aren't going away because of Low Kick.

 

[Malicious Metang]

Weavile doesn't seem any more viable to me in any significant way. It still has no Defense, a Stealth Rock/Sandstorm weakness, weak STAB attacks, moveslot syndrome, and it basically has to predict perfectly or it dies. CB Weavile is only going to come in on the revenge for stuff like Latias, Gengar, and Salamence, and using Low Kick to predict a Meta switch-in is insanely risky. CB Weavile is a revenge killer, not an attacker. While Low Kick is better than Brick Break and I'd use it on the revenge killer, Weavile still has trouble damaging all kinds of stuff, and 2HKOs don't really matter when Scizor and Metagross had Bullet Punch.

If you really care about getting KOs, I would run both Night Slash and Ice Punch to make it less of a joke offensively, and then with either Pursuit or Ice Shard (or even LO + SD, even though SD Weavile is pretty mediocre). Weavile's main disadvantages aren't going away because of Low Kick.

Obviously, but it doesn't change the fact that Weavile can now get by a good portion of its counters. Surely, being able to blast through your checks makes you more viable, does it not? Oh and by the way, running both Ice Punch and Night Slash doesn't get you by Metagross or Hariyama, whereas Low Kick does ;)

 

[Anti]

Obviously, but it doesn't change the fact that Weavile can now get by a good portion of its counters. Surely, being able to blast through your checks makes you more viable, does it not? Oh and by the way, running both Ice Punch and Night Slash doesn't get you by Metagross or Hariyama, whereas Low Kick does ;)

First of all, Hariyama is a joke. Please please please don't even bring it up, honestly makes you look desperate to find something Low Kick hits. I know you're not since it is much better than Brick Break, but Hariyama is just not effective.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that Weavile won't improve, I'm arguing that the improvement Weavile makes won't be significant because you have to predict perfectly to get use out of Low Kick. And I meant a CB set with Low Kick / Ice Punch / Night Slash / Pursuit or Ice Shard, lol. But my point stands, what makes Weavile bad is not being fixed for the most part. It still has its Stealth Rock weakness, horrible defenses, and lack of power (especially its STAB attacks) to worry about. CB Weavile is labeled a revenge killer rather than an attacker for a reason. It will undoubtedly be better, but I don't know how much more viable it's going to be since it's still worse than other revenge killing options.

 

[Malicious Metang]

First of all, Hariyama is a joke. Please please please don't even bring it up, honestly makes you look desperate to find something Low Kick hits. I know you're not since it is much better than Brick Break, but Hariyama is just not effective.

Arguments like this show me you're ignoring facts and would rather go about choosing what you would accept as important or not. No, we will not ignore Hariyama, and I find it ironic that you decided to ignore Metagross, Scizor, and even Bronzong. It's not the best example, but Hariyama was considered the best Weavile counter, and now Weavile gets past it. There is no arguing this, there is nothing you can say to make this false. It is true, like it or not, whether it's important is another story, but the way you're speaking it's as if Hariyama never countered Weavile in the first place =/

Anyway, I'm not arguing that Weavile won't improve, I'm arguing that the improvement Weavile makes won't be significant because you have to predict perfectly to get use out of Low Kick. And I meant a CB set with Low Kick / Ice Punch / Night Slash / Pursuit or Ice Shard, lol. But my point stands, what makes Weavile bad is not being fixed for the most part. It still has its Stealth Rock weakness, horrible defenses, and lack of power (especially its STAB attacks) to worry about. CB Weavile is labeled a revenge killer rather than an attacker for a reason. It will undoubtedly be better, but I don't know how much more viable it's going to be since it's still worse than other revenge killing options.

We knew this. Even if Weavile isn't that much more effective, it is more viable since it gets past it's counters. End of story.

I am the Walrus goo goo g'joob g'goo goo g'joob.
Goo goo g'joob g'goo goo g'joob g'goo.

 

[Anti]

Arguments like this show me you're ignoring facts and would rather go about choosing what you would accept as important or not. No, we will not ignore Hariyama, and I find it ironic that you decided to ignore Metagross, Scizor, and even Bronzong. It's not the best example, but Hariyama was considered the best Weavile counter, and now Weavile gets past it. There is no arguing this, there is nothing you can say to make this false. It is true, like it or not, whether it's important is another story, but the way you're speaking it's as if Hariyama never countered Weavile in the first place =/

I'm not ignoring the facts, I'm saying that Hariyama is hardly viable at all in OU play and sees almost no usage, so why even bring it up? Yeah that's one more thing it beats, but it's so rare that it's not even notable. If you want to act like I'm being selective to support my argument, you can, but you can't actually be implying that Hariyama is relevant to Weavile's effectiveness in the metagame in any way, shape, or form? An obscure UU Pokemon doesn't mean anything. Scizor and the OU Steels do, but not Hariyama.

And no, I'm not ignoring Metagross, Scizor, or Bronzong. First of all, Weavile can't beat either one if they have Bullet Punch, which is always on Scizor and is on over half of Metagross. But I never disagreed that Weavile hits them way harder than before. All I said was that Hariyama is ridiculous to bring up (it is) because of how irrelevant it is in the grand scheme of things. I'm not arguing against D_A's entire argument since I don't disagree with all of it. I "ignored" them because I'm not arguing that point. The only thing I said was that Hariyama is not relevant. Wow, I'm repeating myself, but come on. And no, Hariyama was never the best Weavile counter. Skarmory is better for sure...not like it really matters, but I never knew Hariyama was ever in any Weavile discussion to be honest.

We knew this. Even if Weavile isn't that much more effective, it is more viable since it gets past it's counters. End of story.

I don't get why you think this, so you'll have to elaborate. But Weavile's job is to revenge kill. As a pure revenge killer, how does Low Kick help it do its job better? That's what I'm getting at. Low Kick matters for making Weavile more effective as far as not being dead weight is concerned and making an impact on the battle, but as far as revenge killing is concerned (AKA the only reason people use Weavile to begin with given its horrid disadvantages), Low Kick doesn't help it. That's all I'm arguing lol.


Now let's recap so you don't misunderstand what I'm saying again:

- Low Kick helps hit Weavile's counters for more damage, though it often won't beat them (Metagross, Scizor, sometimes Bronzong). And of course, you have to predict very well to make use out of it. This is true with any CBer, but it is especially true for something as SR weak, frail, and relied on (as all revenge killers are in most cases) as Weavile.

- You can't argue that this will somehow make Weavile better at its job. It will make it more of a pain to stop, but it doesn't actually help it revenge kill at all.

If you want to disagree with me, disagree with one of those two points...or I guess that Hariyama shouldn't even be mentioned, but you have to realize that that's a slippery slope given how many obscure UU Pokemon can counter a few top threats (not like Weavile is a top threat or really even a threat at all with Scizor always running around). I still have no idea how you can hype Weavile more now when it still isn't very good at the one job it's supposed to do.