Hoopa-Unbound suspect test

[Nah]

So today a suspect test was started for Hoopa-Unbound in OU. Might as well open discussion for it here. Do you think it should stay in OU or should it be sent off to Ubers, and why?

 

[gimmepie]

Whilst it can be one hell of a wall breaker and I saw this suspect test coming a mile away, I think people need to calm down on this one. Hoopa-U is seriously powerful but it has shit all means of recovery, only okay speed and piss poor defence.

Speaking as someone who uses Hoopa-U on their main OU team, it's not that hard to counter and/or kill and quite frankly I'd sooner see Manaphy suspect tested than Hoopa if it were up to me.

 

[Aurora]

Esteemed user and Hyphen King CrashinBoomBang has created this excellent image summarising Hoopa-U:

Yes, Pursuit users and U-turn users can usually revenge kill Hoopa, but LO sets in particular can sometimes catch them with the appropriate move by predicting a Pursuit and not switching out (fuck Scarf Tyranitar, though). On top of this, Hoopa carries ridiculous versatility thanks to its ability to run all of Choice Band, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Life Orb, and even weird Expert Belt sets to bluff a Choice item very effectively. Choice Specs in particular is what has inspired the recent turn towards a Hoopa ban thanks to the ridiculous coverage and power it offers, as well as the ability to get around things like Mandibuzz (which adequately deals with most Hoopa sets) with Thunderbolt.

Realistically, if you're using Hoopa in a wallbreaking role, you're not even trying to sweep with it. It's like Durant in RU. Choice Band Durant doesn't care if you find a way to kill it later (hint: you probably won't) because once it's done its job of eliminating a fat Pokemon on the opponent's team, then it becomes rather expendable. Same with Hoopa; it doesn't care THAT much if, once it's removed something dangerous to your sweeper, it dies. It's done its job. Props if it can do more damage, though!

 

[Sirfetch’d]

It's past time for this. Since Hoopa's release it has been an extremely overbearing Pokemon in the meta and once it gets a free switch in, you are pretty much going to lose your Pokemon or be forced to switch into a Pokemon to lose. Mandibuzz isn't worth running and still loses to some Hoopa variants. a Pokemon with an extremely good offensive typing and movepool coupled with 160/170 offenses that is not a mega, should not be allowed to roam freely. I'd vote ban.

 

[Anti]

Whilst it can be one hell of a wall breaker and I saw this suspect test coming a mile away, I think people need to calm down on this one. Hoopa-U is seriously powerful but it has **** all means of recovery, only okay speed and piss poor defence.

Speaking as someone who uses Hoopa-U on their main OU team, it's not that hard to counter and/or kill and quite frankly I'd sooner see Manaphy suspect tested than Hoopa if it were up to me.

I don't understand how it's not that hard to counter. It literally has no counters.

Anyway, I think that while this mon can still be dead weight sometimes because of its well-documented flaws (terrible defensive utility combined with the inability to grab momentum because of poor Speed), the shift toward Band/Specs away from Life Orb has made it better both offensively (stronger) and especially defensively. No recoil makes a world of difference both in lasting vs. slow teams and in getting free turns vs. offensive Pokemon it can 1v1 (Latios, Gengar, Serperior, Manaphy, Raikou, etc.) which makes it way harder to play around, especially without Pursuit.

The immediate power of this mon exceeds what is generally accepted for OU (and for good reason). This poke is flawed, but it's clearly broken. I think it just took people some time to maximize it.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

though i admit i've never used it too much, i don't think specs hoopa is as good as people make it out to be. losing poison coverage bites it in the ass, and while stab psychic/hspace hole can 2hko most fairies easily, being locked into it while a pursuit trapper is lurking is asking for trouble. fat teams do have chansey, who is only 2hkoed by specs FB after a bit of rocks (basically, a 49% chance lol) and mandibuzz is also there to somewhat wall it, only fearing the rare thunderbolt.

band hoopa still hates pursuit trappers due to the def drop and most dark-types (even weavile) tanking hspace fury. pursuit does at least 80% on the switch iirc (scarftar) and OHKOes when from weavile or bisharp.

pls don't ban hoopa

 

[Anti]

specs hoopa does 49.5% minimum dmg to chansey with psyshock

 

[gimmepie]

I don't understand how it's not that hard to counter. It literally has no counters.

Wasn't using counter in its technical capacity. I just mean it isn't impossible to kill like some make out.

Anyway, I think that while this mon can still be dead weight sometimes because of its well-documented flaws (terrible defensive utility combined with the inability to grab momentum because of poor Speed), the shift toward Band/Specs away from Life Orb has made it better both offensively (stronger) and especially defensively. No recoil makes a world of difference both in lasting vs. slow teams and in getting free turns vs. offensive Pokemon it can 1v1 (Latios, Gengar, Serperior, Manaphy, Raikou, etc.) which makes it way harder to play around, especially without Pursuit.

Considering how common U-Turn, Knock Off, Pursuit and Sucker Punch are and the number of pokemon that can tank a Hoopa-U attack or outspeed it that learn said moves, I don't think it really needs to be banned. It's so frail physically it can't possibly switch into any decent physical attack and choice locking it takes away the thing that makes it the most deadly - it's versatility.

The immediate power of this mon exceeds what is generally accepted for OU (and for good reason). This poke is flawed, but it's clearly broken. I think it just took people some time to maximize it.

This would be true if mega-evolution now wasn't a thing. There are now many pokemon with comparatively close stats running around in OU. 634 for the Mega-Zards and 635 for M-Swampert. Hell, M-Lati@s are OU with a BST of 700, close stats in many regards and a far higher speed tier than un-choiced Hoopa.

 

[Anti]

Wasn't using counter in its technical capacity. I just mean it isn't impossible to kill like some make out.

This is a straw man. Who says it's impossible to kill? It's quite easy to kill because it's slow and dies to any physical attack. I don't think anyone is saying it's impossible to kill but rather that it's very difficult not to be killed by Hoopa.

Anyway, "just kill it with <insert attack suspect is weak to>" is not how actual battles work. Knock Off and Sucker Punch are arguments against a Hoopa ban just like the ubiquity of Earthquake is an argument to release Primal Groudon into OU. Hoopa can switch out. Hoopa can double switch or get sent into battle for free with one of its own teammates' U-turn or Volt Switch. If only it were as easy as just smacking it around and keeping it off the field...

U-turn and Pursuit are more difficult to play around and warrant more discussion. U-turn is indeed an annoyance, a sort of tax you pay for getting a kill with Hoopa, as "just switch out of <insert physical attack>" does not apply given U-turn's momentum. Pursuit can, of course, remove it. These are legitimate barriers for Hoopa--I just don't think they actually prevent it from being broken, the same way Greninja's weaknesses were real but didn't really matter that much. Pursuit is the only real stop to this Pokemon, but seeing as you have to sacrifice a Pokemon to get the Pursuiter in (unless you want to risk death by Focus Blast/Drain Punch, a bet you almost never want to make) and then cede momentum after the trap (because Pursuit is weak and exploitable by common Hoopa partners like Mega Lopunny or Keldeo), I don't really think it makes that much of a difference for the same reason I don't want Soul Dew Latios running around even though my trusted fast U-turner/Pursuiter can put an end to it.

Choice-locking it is rarely an issue because its Dark STAB is very spammable. Its versatility is nice, but this Pokemon is broken because it's just too strong.

re: megas, I meant power ceiling, not BST. Hoopa is stronger than pretty much every mega evolution in OU. More importantly, it doesn't take up a mega slot. Not to get too wonky, but each mega's metagame presence is artificially deflated by the fact that you can only use one per team. For tiering purposes, I'd actually argue that megas and non-megas are apples and oranges! Hoopa is easier to support because you can use another mega to support it, which is very potent.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

specs hoopa does 49.5% minimum dmg to chansey with psyshock

I'd rather use Psychic or H-Space Hole for shit like Unaware Clefable/Quag and idk DDD Mega Altaria (and if hspace hole, deal damage straight through Gliscor's Protect).

 

[Anti]

well

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 178-210 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 211-249 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

psychic and certainly hyperspace hole (for m diancie i guess??) are inferior. you want to hit chansey and av tornadus-t, which are both far more consequential than uncommon and largely bad mons like ddd altaria and protect gliscor. this is why specs hoopa runs it and why it is very hard to handle. gotta love psyshock 2hkoing a phys wall lol, band or specs i hope they aren't switching quag into its dark stab lol

 

[wolf]

I'm supportive of a ban. Hoopa-U has incredibly good coverage with Dark/Psychic STABs and high-powered moves. Add in the best offensive stats in OU and you have the most difficult OU Pokemon to switch into. Once it gets in on a passive Pokemon or via a sacrifice or VoltTurn support, something is pretty much guaranteed to go down. No other non-Mega Pokemon is capable of doing this so effectively with such versatility. Hoopa's ease of use and ability to rack up so many kills make it overpowered in my eyes. Hoopa is easy to force out, but that doesn't diminish it enough to take away from how broken it is.

You could compare it to Pokemon like Kyurem-B and Manaphy. However, KyuB has checks such as Clefable, Mega Scizor, and Keldeo, along with an SR weakness. Ice resists are more common than Dark resists. Mana requires a turn to set up, so it's easier to deal with.

 

[Megan]

And there it goes.

And in all the time that it ran freely, I've never used it once.