Serious How much more can America stomach?

[Her]

For those that have been keeping up with the concentration camp news, and the recent dismissal of the Eric Garner case + the imprisonment of the man who filmed his murder taking place, with the developing story of the Send Her Back rallying chant not dissimilar to scenes from Nuremberg, how much more can be tolerated? How much more can be stomached?

I'm not bothering with objectivity in these examples, because I honestly do not give a shit about cotton-wrapping the inherent horror in these events for the sake of precious decorum. I just ask that you do not yell at each other, and that anyone with queries about post content come talk to erik destler or myself. You can be passionate, but just be cautious about whether it fits on PC.

 

[EnglishALT]

It all depends on how it affects the individual person, the Eric Garner case while a miscarriage of justice won't really be noticed in all the noise outside of those that are actively following it.

The "Concentration Camps", well we can disagree on the use of that word to describe those buildings, but I would say the attack on them and the recent raising of the Mexican flag on their property does more damage than helps. Even the use of the word "Concentration Camps" to describe them probably sends most people into eye rolls.

As for the "Send her back" chants, while wrong, I am interested to see how it plays out, the "Squad" has said some pretty outrageous things, that the GOP has now made a campaign video of, and her sponsoring a BDS vote certainly will not help her in the eyes of the American public.

Anyway to answer your question, Americans are quite resilient when it comes to the outrageous outrage of politics, and usually pretty quick to forget and move on. What may seem shocking and anger educing to you or I will be forgotten by this time next year.

 

[TailsMK4]

These days it is very hard to keep up with what is going on, and I tend to get disgusted by what I read now in the news (anything involving the "Squad" is of particular disgust to me). But the one that got my attention the most is the planned raids on Area 51. Why are people even considering this, even if the idea itself is a joke? Even if most people tell it as a joke, there are others out there that may very well attempt to do it...it is human nature after all to be curious, and perhaps be stubborn. If this raid really happens, there's going to be a line crossed between protecting secrets and protecting lives, and which one could cause more harm to the country if lost? Imagine if other countries happened to get information from whatever testing is being done at Area 51...

 

[Nah]

This is all going to continue to go on for a lot longer than anyone would like really

Some of us are tired of this shit. Been tired for years. Been getting more tired. But unfortunately, we don't really have the power to do anything about it--which just makes us even more tired. For every person who wants to see these things stop, there's another one who thinks these sorts of things are ok.

Country's too divided for any positive change to come anytime soon, if ever

 

[Roxas]

They very much so are concentration camps. The ICE is the new Gestapo. It's really sickening, any American citizen, hell, any world citizen with any knowledge of basic history can tell you this is the beginning of something awful. I hope it all goes down in flames honestly. If people are too daft / unobservant / ignorant to observe the pattern of Nazi camps repeating itself, then that's their loss.

I don't know how much more the American people can take. The lower and middle classes are too busy being droned to death with work, barely enough time to go out and vote, let alone research their political candidates. Imagine how little time there is for us struggling to make it in a world that highly favors the one percent for anyone to organize social action. It's truly awful. If we can't get it done, other countries probably will try to speak out against what's becoming a very obvious racist regime.

Ellis Island eventually started turning away Jewish folks, look what our borders are doing now, turning away brown refugees. There are many other comparisons to make, but this is just one recent one. So many undeniable and scary parallels. Brushing this issue off and saying that it's no big deal is ignorant IMO.

 

[EnglishALT]

They very much so are concentration camps. The ICE is the new Gestapo. It's really sickening, any American citizen, hell, any world citizen with any knowledge of basic history can tell you this is the beginning of something awful. I hope it all goes down in flames honestly. If people are too daft / unobservant / ignorant to observe the pattern of Nazi camps repeating itself, then that's their loss.

I don't know how much more the American people can take. The lower and middle classes are too busy being droned to death with work, barely enough time to go out and vote, let alone research their political candidates. Imagine how little time there is for us struggling to make it in a world that highly favors the one percent for anyone to organize social action. It's truly awful. If we can't get it done, other countries probably will try to speak out against what's becoming a very obvious racist regime.

Ellis Island eventually started turning away Jewish folks, look what our borders are doing now, turning away brown refugees. There are many other comparisons to make, but this is just one recent one. So many undeniable and scary parallels. Brushing this issue off and saying that it's no big deal is ignorant IMO.

Since it is being brought up again, I am honestly curious, could you expand on how you believe they are Nazi concentration camps? Are there gas chambers? Medical experiments? Forced labor? Did they come to those places on their own free will or were they forced there?

Those that are being turned away, do they not have a safe country that has offered them protection? Do they face murder by their government if they return home?

If you want to throw out the Nazi imagery I am interested where you get the comparisons.

And to tie further back into the topic, why do you think the vast majority of Americans disagree with that opinion?

 

[Miss Wendighost]

Judging by recent outcry on social media, I don't think that the average American can take this madness any longer. Can't do much until 2020, however beyond voicing our displeasure with events and hoping for something to change, even if it's small.

 

[Maedar]

I admit nothing Trump does affects me personally, although his constant dominance of the news with his inane tweets gives me a headache.

And as someone who has supported civil rights my entire life, I recognize bigotry and human rights violation when I see it. Trump is the bigot committing the violations, NOT the "Squad".

 

[Roxas]

Since it is being brought up again, I am honestly curious, could you expand on how you believe they are Nazi concentration camps? Are there gas chambers? Medical experiments? Forced labor? Did they come to those places on their own free will or were they forced there?

Those that are being turned away, do they not have a safe country that has offered them protection? Do they face murder by their government if they return home?

If you want to throw out the Nazi imagery I am interested where you get the comparisons.

And to tie further back into the topic, why do you think the vast majority of Americans disagree with that opinion?

This is truly baffling. Never once did I say they were Nazi concentration camps, you drew that conclusion yourself by trying to defend them. I alluded they were similar to Nazi camps. There are no gas chambers, medical experiments, or forced labor. However, these people were forced there. No one willingly goes to a concentration camp, if they do, they must do so in fear of their life. I urge you to read up on the victims of ICE. If you are not a member of a marginalized group, I'm afraid you don't quite understand the fear ICE strikes into a majority of this country, akin to the fear the gestapo used to strike into that of the jewish and etc people from Europe.

I get these comparisons from the fact that JEWISH PEOPLE, who have survived the Holocaust, have come up and said that we're approaching a dangerous level of racism once again. If we don't listen to the survivors telling us the signs are all here, then who do we listen to? I'd really love to know.

"The vast majority of Americans disagree," Okay, sure, show me the polling, the research paper, the evidence. Just don't throw a Stormer article at me, or some crud from a right wing reddit lmao.

 

[EnglishALT]

This is truly baffling. Never once did I say they were Nazi concentration camps, you drew that conclusion yourself by trying to defend them. I alluded they were similar to Nazi camps. There are no gas chambers, medical experiments, or forced labor. However, these people were forced there. No one willingly goes to a concentration camp, if they do, they must do so in fear of their life. I urge you to read up on the victims of ICE. If you are not a member of a marginalized group, I'm afraid you don't quite understand the fear ICE strikes into a majority of this country, akin to the fear the gestapo used to strike into that of the jewish and etc people from Europe.

You compared ICE to Gestapo, it is pretty clear that you were speaking of Nazi Concentration Camps, however, if you wish to go further, yes people are going to these "camps" on their own free will. They are crossing the border illegally on their own free will, they are trying to evade authorities on their own free will, they are refusing to stay in Mexico which has offered them asylum on their own free will.

I get these comparisons from the fact that JEWISH PEOPLE, who have survived the Holocaust, have come up and said that we're approaching a dangerous level of racism once again. If we don't listen to the survivors telling us the signs are all here, then who do we listen to? I'd really love to know.

"Celina Biniaz doesn't think so. To her, a concentration camp is a place where captives live in daily fear of being killed.

She should know.

At 13, she was in Auschwitz. She came face to face with the notorious Josef Mengele and saw the smoke from the chimneys as the sky darkened with ash of fellow Jews burned in ovens. She escaped with the help of Oskar Schindler, whose story was told in the Steven Spielberg film "Schindler's List.""

The U.S. Holocaust Museum issued a statement this week saying it "unequivocally rejects efforts to create analogies between the Holocaust and other events, whether historical or contemporary."

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-n...aust-immigrants-detention-20190628-story.html

"The vast majority of Americans disagree," Okay, sure, show me the polling, the research paper, the evidence. Just don't throw a Stormer article at me, or some crud from a right wing reddit lmao.

I did, the link was in the post, if you want here it is again.

https://www.businessinsider.com/qua...ention-centers-are-concentration-camps-2019-7

 

[Her]

Arguing over semantics is one reason why the debate is remaining a debate and not a call of order to ending the atrocities - I believe they are concentration camps in name, purpose and intent, but for those who don't, doesn't the possibility of your beliefs being likened to 'putting people in concentration camps' summon an urge deep in your heart to try put an end to this process? Regardless of semantics, it's still happening. It's all still going on, no matter what you call it. So long as people keep the cyclical discussion of 'BUT ARE THEY REALLY 'CAMPS?' going round and round in the media, people will be too busy debating the banality of evil, and no criticism will be applied beyond semantics and subsequently there will be no political capital expended on ending these events.

 

[EnglishALT]

Arguing over semantics is one reason why the debate is remaining a debate and not a call of order to ending the atrocities - I believe they are concentration camps in name, purpose and intent, but for those who don't, doesn't the possibility of your beliefs being likened to 'putting people in concentration camps' summon an urge deep in your heart to try put an end to this process? Regardless of semantics, it's still happening. It's all still going on, no matter what you call it. So long as people keep the cyclical discussion of 'BUT ARE THEY REALLY 'CAMPS?' going round and round in the media, people will be too busy debating the banality of evil, and no criticism will be applied beyond semantics and subsequently there will be no political capital expended on ending these events.

Alright let me ask, what do you purpose as an alternative? Catch and Release? Congress was told that nearly 9 and 10 currently do not show up for court hearings. In essence it would be open borders to allow for that to happen. So I am curious as to what other solutions you would suggest.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/may/8/87-immigrant-families-are-no-shows-hearings/

 

[Her]

Yeah, shockingly, people that are aware of the ghetto-level conditions that await them are going to be inclined towards risking going it on their own than the possibility of being locked away in an area where there is a serious debate about to what degree they aesthetically and legally resemble concentration camps. I don't blame them at all.

I don't pretend to know the golden policy that will solve this issue - but I am aware of the Golden Rule, and I'm pretty sure that intentionally making the process of seeking asylum as inhumane as possible to justify the state treatment of brown people does not follow that rule. I would start with facing the reality that decades of destabilisation of the surrounding nations is going to have the consequence of those people flocking towards the only geographically feasible stable power in that region, and pulling money away from a disastrous wall and into humane vetting and residency procedure policies. I would also give up the ghost that ICE are anything more than secret police, and redirect its funding towards humane settling of migrants and helping them contribute to the economy they so desperately want to be a part of. It'll be slow, but it won't be torturing the fucking people.

Edit: fwiw I am aware I broke my rule of calmness so I will take that into consideration

 

[EnglishALT]

Yeah, shockingly, people that are aware of the ghetto-level conditions that await them are going to be inclined towards risking going it on their own than the possibility of being locked away in an area where there is a serious debate about to what degree they aesthetically and legally resemble concentration camps. I don't blame them at all.

I am pretty sure, that those that are currently in the "camps" are those that cross illegally, and are not those that go to a point of entry and wait in Mexico they also have turned down Mexico's offer for asylum. However I may be wrong, I thought the Remain in Mexico policy pretty much contains those who are going through the proper process.

I don't pretend to know the golden policy that will solve this issue - but I am aware of the Golden Rule, and I'm pretty sure that intentionally making the process of seeking asylum as inhumane as possible to justify the state treatment of brown people does not follow that rule. I would start with facing the reality that decades of destabilisation of the surrounding nations is going to have the consequence of those people flocking towards the only geographically feasible stable power in that region, and pulling money away from a disastrous wall and into humane vetting and residency procedure policies.

If they wish to seek asylum then why have they not taken up Mexico's offer? Why do they not present themselves at a point of entry and wait in Mexico for their chance to go in front of an immigration judge? If anything a wall would stop those from coming in illegally and push them to points of entry, thus stopping the need for the camps.

However a significant if not vast majority of people coming are not doing so out of fear, but for economic reasons, thus making their asylum claim frivolous.

Edit: If you need evidence of this look no further than this article from yesterday showing many returning home after finding out they would not be allowed into the US while their asylum claim was processed and instead would be waiting in Mexico.

https://www.texastribune.org/2019/07/26/migrants-giving-asylum-after-trump-policies-slow-them-down/

 

[moon]

It seems like this has been growing and growing, slowly enough that parts of the American population now accepts this as normal political measures. Much of the rest of the world has not yet normalized these kind of rhetorics, thankfully, and as such are able to criticize what's going on.

So I fear that the US can take a lot more and even worse developments than this, as they've been lulled into thinking it is humanely acceptable. It's scary. History is repeating itself.

 

[Maedar]

ALT, why are you defending a policy that involves jailing children? Just answer me that, okay?

IMOHO, this act is an unthinkable atrocity that is NEVER justified or excusable, no matter what the reasoning is.

"Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Matthew 19:14

 

[EnglishALT]

ALT, why are you defending a policy that involves jailing children? Just answer me that, okay?

IMOHO, this act is an unthinkable atrocity that is NEVER justified or excusable, no matter what the reasoning is.

"Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Matthew 19:14

What other alternative is there? Releasing them to foster homes in the country can create situations in which they are preyed upon by pedophiles, keeping them in adult detention facilities is dangerous, especially if they come alone. The best I can think of is holding them in facilities with their parents, so that they do not have to be separated, but as we have seen it is common practice for migrants to buy children to cross over, because they believe they will be released if they come across with kids. There is no good answer other than creating bigger facilities with more staff that can properly care for these kids.

 

[moon]

I'm curious where I should read more about this, the detention camps in particular. What are some good sources for finding as impartial yet reasonable information as possible on this?

 

[LDSman]

I'm curious where I should read more about this, the detention camps in particular. What are some good sources for finding as impartial yet reasonable information as possible on this?

Hard to say. Everyone is spinning this.

Something like 30% of the people tested had zero relation to the children in their care.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...ed-fraudulent-migrant-families-were-unrelated

 

[Maedar]

And the other 70% of the suspected cases?

That would mean more than 70,000 detained children belong to innocent families, WHY do you tolerate such a atrocity? WHY do you feel it is EVER justified to detain children? Just ANSWER me, LDS!

WHY is money so important to you that you are willing to support a Nazi who approves hurting thousands of children??

And as for your question, ALT, what we had before Trump manufactured his phony crisis was working just fine. You guys just don't understand, when Trump makes claims of invasion by Mexico of rapists and traffickers, WE DO NOT BELIEVE HIM. Just like we don't believe his phony-baloney claims of voter fraud and Birtherism.

What he is doing is inhuman.

Now answer my question please, WHY do you support this monstrosity who is jailing children?