I just keep making these (OU) teams.....

[Nah]

So.....I made another team for y'all to help me with because I'm nuts and can't stop. I kinda want this team to be able to handle stall/defensive teams.

Thundurus @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA/ 252 Spe/ 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

Mawile @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head

Gothitelle @ Choice Specs
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Sp.Attack/252 Speed/4 Sp.Defense
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Tunderbolt
- Signal Beam
- Psyshock

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Sp.Def / 8 Defense
Calm Nature
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- U-Turn
- Perish Song

Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 76 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot
- Thunder Punch

In the final slot I've been playing around with these 2:

-Mamoswine w/Focus Sash
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 Sp.Defense
Moves: Stealth Rock, Earthquake, Ice Shard, Icicle Crash

-Landorus-I w/Rocky Helmet
Nature: Impish
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Defense, 4 Sp.Defense
Moves: Earthquake, U-Turn, Stealth Rock, Knock Off


I'll probably go with Mamaoswine at this point.
It'd be appreciated if you guys could help me out....again.

 

[PlatinumDude]

I don't know what's up with Thundurus' EVs, tbh. Does it avoid any KOs? Who does it outspeed? If it doesn't do any of these things, just use the simple 4 Def/252 SAtk/252 Spe spread.

I don't think Mawile can afford to set up Swords Dance or Substitute at once. I think dropping one of them for a coverage move is ideal (preferably Knock Off, Focus Punch or Iron Head).

168 Atk/88 SAtk/252 Spe is the preferred EV spread for Infernape; it still 2HKOs Therian Landorus and Gliscor with Fire Blast, while giving Close Combat and Thunder Punch more power. Also, Iron Fist > Blaze, since powering up Thunder Punch is useful.

I think Therian Landorus is a neat fit in the last slot, as it can set up Stealth Rock for the team to take advantage of:
-Stealth Rock
-Earthquake
-U-turn
-Stone Edge/Knock Off
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Item: Leftovers/Rocky Helmet

 

[Nah]

I don't know what's up with Thundurus' EVs, tbh. Does it avoid any KOs? Who does it outspeed? If it doesn't do any of these things, just use the simple 4 Def/252 SAtk/252 Spe spread.

That was something I saw on Smogon's page of Thundurus in X/Y. But I'll go with what you said, because they had some other weird ♥♥♥♥ on its page, like a set with Power Herb+Fly.

I don't think Mawile can afford to set up Swords Dance or Substitute at once. I think dropping one of them for a coverage move is ideal (preferably Knock Off, Focus Punch or Iron Head).

Oh, when you said this:

Mega Mawile with Substitute also helps against stall; from behind the Sub. Swords Dance to amp up Mawile's Attack works too, in order to overwhelm the generally bulkiness of stall.

I thought that you meant to use them together. So I'll fix that too.

Thanks.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

I doubt ThunderPunch is that good on Infernape. If you want to hit Azumarill, look no further than Gunk Shot. Especially since you don't have Iron Fist, ThunderPunch doesn't hit bulky water-types much harder than Gunk Shot.

For Thundurus, use 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe and a Life Orb. Also, a Timid nature is recommended to outspeed Keldeo, Terrakion and Infernape.

Vaporeon is horrible and outclassed outside of Baton Pass, which was nerfed. I think defensive RestTalk (Mega) Gyarados works better in its place.

Fire Fang > Substitute on Mega Mawile.

As for your final slot, I think a Mamoswine with EQ/Icicle Crash/Ice Shard/Stealth Rock would work nicely. It protects you from Landorus-I, Lati@s and Dragonite, and it can set up SR very reliably.

Also, consider using Psyshock over Psychic on Gothitelle.

Your team looks good anyway.

 

[Nah]

I doubt ThunderPunch is that good on Infernape. If you want to hit Azumarill, look no further than Gunk Shot. Especially since you don't have Iron Fist, ThunderPunch doesn't hit bulky water-types much harder than Gunk Shot.

Infernape gets Gunk Shot? it seems like everything gets Gunk shot now
I'm doing this on Showdown, so I swapped Blaze with Iron Fist. Or is Gunk Shot still the better option here?

Vaporeon is horrible and outclassed outside of Baton Pass, which was nerfed. I think defensive RestTalk (Mega) Gyarados works better in its place.

The thing is that I need a Water resist and a cleric for the team, not simply a defensive poke. Ya got any other ideas?

Fire Fang > Substitute on Mega Mawile.

I actually switched Substitute with Iron Head. I take it that's alright too?

As for your final slot, I think a Mamoswine with EQ/Icicle Crash/Ice Shard/Stealth Rock would work nicely. It protects you from Landorus-I, Lati@s and Dragonite, and it can set up SR very reliably.

I think I'll give that a shot.

 

[PlatinumDude]

I doubt ThunderPunch is that good on Infernape. If you want to hit Azumarill, look no further than Gunk Shot. Especially since you don't have Iron Fist, ThunderPunch doesn't hit bulky water-types much harder than Gunk Shot.

For Thundurus, use 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe and a Life Orb. Also, a Timid nature is recommended to outspeed Keldeo, Terrakion and Infernape.

Vaporeon is horrible and outclassed outside of Baton Pass, which was nerfed. I think defensive RestTalk (Mega) Gyarados works better in its place.

Fire Fang > Substitute on Mega Mawile.

As for your final slot, I think a Mamoswine with EQ/Icicle Crash/Ice Shard/Stealth Rock would work nicely. It protects you from Landorus-I, Lati@s and Dragonite, and it can set up SR very reliably.

Also, consider using Psyshock over Psychic on Gothitelle.

Your team looks good anyway.

1. Thunder Punch also allows Infernape to hit regular Gyarados super effectively. Gunk Shot has Stone Edge-level accuracy, and I doubt its usefulness other than Azumarill.

2. Fire Fang is only useful if you really hate Skarmory or Scizor. Iron Head is useful for hitting Mega Venusaur harder. Knock Off is a spammable move for crippling item-dependent opponents and Focus Punch has a stronger hit on Heatran, but should only be used with Substitute.

 

[srinator]

You could switch out vaporeon for chansey and bring in quagsire in the last slot. Quagsire helps check a lot mainly bd azu. Which rn ur weak too.

Also just saying since we battled, using grass knot on infernape is like cruel :[

 

[Anti]

Every legitimate team runs Stealth Rock. You're at a disadvantage if you don't use it: it's that good. Always remember this.

Anyway, I'm just curious what the strategy of the team is. Besides Goth trapping Mega Venu and Keld to ease things up for Mawile, I'm curious about the synergy. I'm not saying it doesn't have it, but I'm asking what the thought process is here.

Most teams don't *need* a cleric, they just need status absorption. I'd rather run something like Keld than use Vaporeon, which just isn't that good anymore. But yeah, the last slot should be for a Stealth Rock user, and in general I'd just be active testing to see what combos work well. I'm skeptical of Infernape as the best choice, though by no means an awful one.

 

[champagnepapi]

Hmm yea as anti said I think you may want to have SR on this team so maybe change Infernape to a lead variant with taunt and SR, I've seen it used at high levels, as it can outspeed Deoxys-D and get SR up reliably on most everything. A bigger change you might want to consider is changing Vaporeon to a belly drum azumarill. I think as it stands Vaporeon kind of hurts your teams offensive momentum [ie its a defensive/passive poke so it invites your opponents threats to come in and force you to have to respond to him] and can't stop certain threats like zard x, or even any other poke with a sub or in general if scald doesnt burn, because it lacks toxic. I think BD Azumarill is a good replacement as it has the utility to act as a bulky water in a pinch and check threats, but gives you a good offensive presence. It also lures in mega venusaur and amoongus who gothitelle can trap, plus weaken skarmory, set up on bulky grounds that wall m mawile....these 2 are pretty good partners.

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Waterfall
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet


Anyways speaking of gothitelle, I don't think the CM version is that great most of the time, I think you just want to run specs since it's the most powerful and will ensure slower pokes don't kill it before it can kill them. As for the last slot I think you should get something to beat NP Thund, it looks like a pretty big threat to the team, Aegislash is a decent way to beat it one on one but LO can take it out if aeg has taken prior damage, still it might be a decent answer. Don't go for lati@s though, 2 psychics on an xy team is really going to hurt you because of aegislash and bisharp's presence in the tier. Maybe look into scarf chomp although he might be dead weight since you already have t wave thund to stop most sweepers.

 

[Nah]

Also just saying since we battled, using grass knot on infernape is like cruel :[

I put Grass Knot on Infernape almost soley for ♥♥♥♥ing over Unaware Quagsire =)

Every legitimate team runs Stealth Rock. You're at a disadvantage if you don't use it: it's that good. Always remember this.

I should've updated the OP, but I've been playing around with a Mamoswine and a Lando-I as my SR setter. Not sure which one is better for the team though. Mamo has great offensive typing and priority, but Lando has great physical bulk, which the team also likes.

Anyway, I'm just curious what the strategy of the team is. Besides Goth trapping Mega Venu and Keld to ease things up for Mawile, I'm curious about the synergy. I'm not saying it doesn't have it, but I'm asking what the thought process is here.

This is probably something I also should've stated in the OP, but the team is sorta meant to combat stall teams or just defensive teams in general (and maybe being able to take on other types of teams as well). Getting my ass handed to me by Moxie and DA's stall teams wasn't fun, and made me realize I suck so hard against stall. Not a whole lotta thought process besides that.

Most teams don't *need* a cleric, they just need status absorption. I'd rather run something like Keld than use Vaporeon, which just isn't that good anymore. But yeah, the last slot should be for a Stealth Rock user, and in general I'd just be active testing to see what combos work well. I'm skeptical of Infernape as the best choice, though by no means an awful one.

Hmm yea as anti said I think you may want to have SR on this team so maybe change Infernape to a lead variant with taunt and SR, I've seen it used at high levels, as it can outspeed Deoxys-D and get SR up reliably on most everything. A bigger change you might want to consider is changing Vaporeon to a belly drum azumarill. I think as it stands Vaporeon kind of hurts your teams offensive momentum [ie its a defensive/passive poke so it invites your opponents threats to come in and force you to have to respond to him] and can't stop certain threats like zard x, or even any other poke with a sub or in general if scald doesnt burn, because it lacks toxic. I think BD Azumarill is a good replacement as it has the utility to act as a bulky water in a pinch and check threats, but gives you a good offensive presence. It also lures in mega venusaur and amoongus who gothitelle can trap, plus weaken skarmory, set up on bulky grounds that wall m mawile....these 2 are pretty good partners.

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Waterfall
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet

I agree with both of you that Vaporeon hasn't been all that great for the team, but I'm not sold on using Azumarill or Chansey for that slot.

Anyways speaking of gothitelle, I don't think the CM version is that great most of the time, I think you just want to run specs since it's the most powerful and will ensure slower pokes don't kill it before it can kill them. As for the last slot I think you should get something to beat NP Thund, it looks like a pretty big threat to the team, Aegislash is a decent way to beat it one on one but LO can take it out if aeg has taken prior damage, still it might be a decent answer. Don't go for lati@s though, 2 psychics on an xy team is really going to hurt you because of aegislash and bisharp's presence in the tier. Maybe look into scarf chomp although he might be dead weight since you already have t wave thund to stop most sweepers.

I'm using CM Gothitelle to trap special attackers, set up a ton of CMs, then go to town. Or is that still a bad idea?

 

[Zeffy]

I'm using CM Gothitelle to trap special attackers, set up a ton of CMs, then go to town. Or is that still a bad idea?

Thing is, Gothitelle can't really "go to town" even with a couple of boosts under its belt. It's just too slow and frail to do anything other than what's it meant to do: trap and ko certain 'mons that it can.

 

[Nah]

Thing is, Gothitelle can't really "go to town" even with a couple of boosts under its belt. It's just too slow and frail to do anything other than what's it meant to do: trap and ko certain 'mons that it can.

Alright, I'll go with a Specs set then.

And there's still the issue of Vaporeon's replacement.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

1. Thunder Punch also allows Infernape to hit regular Gyarados super effectively. Gunk Shot has Stone Edge-level accuracy, and I doubt its usefulness other than Azumarill.

2. Fire Fang is only useful if you really hate Skarmory or Scizor. Iron Head is useful for hitting Mega Venusaur harder. Knock Off is a spammable move for crippling item-dependent opponents and Focus Punch has a stronger hit on Heatran, but should only be used with Substitute.

Yes but Gunk Shot allows Infernape to destroy Fairy-type Pokemon, especially Azumarill. Close Combat already hits those Water-types pretty hard, except for Azumarill and Gyara (which Thundurus can just KO with Tbolt).

Fire Fang is pretty much a standard move on SD M-Mawile.

 

[PlatinumDude]

Yes but Gunk Shot allows Infernape to destroy Fairy-type Pokemon, especially Azumarill. Close Combat already hits those Water-types pretty hard, except for Azumarill and Gyara (which Thundurus can just KO with Tbolt).

Fire Fang is pretty much a standard move on SD M-Mawile.

1. Fairies are already hit hard by Flare Blitz, if Infernape opts for it. Given how somewhat prominent Gyarados and Azumarill are, Thunder Punch is better to nail them all in one move (on the switch). Other than that, Gyarados, Azumarill or other Fairies are still better left for teammates to deal with.

2. Fire Fang isn't standard on Mawile anymore because people have chosen to opt for Iron Head to at least hit Mega Venusaur neutrally. Mega Venusaur's Thick Fat makes Fire Fang even weaker than a neutral Iron Head.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Life Orb Gunk Shot is enough to OHKO most Fairy-types. Flare Blitz usually won't get the job done, even with Blaze activated. ThunderPunch has no reason to be used if you don't run Iron Fist.

 

[PlatinumDude]

Life Orb Gunk Shot is enough to OHKO most Fairy-types. Flare Blitz usually won't get the job done, even with Blaze activated. ThunderPunch has no reason to be used if you don't run Iron Fist.

Other than Fairies, what purpose does Gunk Shot serve? Infernape already takes care of non-Mega Venusaur Grass Pokemon with its Fire STAB.

And if you don't want Fairies to rain on your parade, just use Iron Head Mega Mawile.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

But without Iron Fist, ThunderPunch is actually weaker against Electric-weak Pokemon than Close Combat/Fire Blast. Also, it can't OHKO Gyarados at full health because of Intimidate. Even with Iron Fist, it hits a Pokemon weak to Electric for... 180 power. Just like Close Combat. Not really worth it...

Gunk Shot on the other hand OHKOes any fairy-type bar Mega Mawile, especially with the help of Stealth Rock. Azumarill, Sylveon, Togekiss, Mega Gardevoir and Clefable would trash Infernape without Gunk Shot. These fairies are much more common than, say, regular Gyarados, Suicune or Slowbro. (I doubt non-CB Aqua Jet OHKOes Infernape.). Thundurus can just remove Water-types with its STAB, while Infernape can surprise fairies with said poison-type move.

So yeah, Gunk Shot > ThunderPunch

 

[PlatinumDude]

But without Iron Fist, ThunderPunch is actually weaker against Electric-weak Pokemon than Close Combat/Fire Blast. Also, it can't OHKO Gyarados at full health because of Intimidate.

Gunk Shot on the other hand OHKOes any fairy-type bar Mega Mawile, especially with the help of Stealth Rock. Azumarill, Sylveon, Togekiss, Mega Gardevoir and Clefable would trash Infernape without Gunk Shot. These fairies are much more common than, say, regular Gyarados, Suicune or Slowbro. (I doubt non-CB Aqua Jet OHKOes Infernape.). Thundurus can just remove Water-types with its STAB, while Infernape can surprise fairies with said poison-type move.

So yeah, Gunk Shot > ThunderPunch

Kinda mistaken here (using Crobat as an example because it's the only Flying Pokemon I can think of with equal defensive stats; using the standard offensive spread for calcs, with a tweak to Fire Blast for fairness' sake):

168 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 224-265 (72 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 246-290 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

168 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 247-291 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Iron Fist Thunder Punch outdamages STAB Flare Blitz an Fire Blast by a slight margin and Fire Blast by a good amount.

Also, Gyarados can be taken out by Thunder Punch after Stealth Rock. Bulky Dragon Dance, however, is a different story, though the chance is still high:
-1 168 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 250-296 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 168 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 250-296 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I also forgot to mention that Thunder Punch is Infernape's best option against Talonflame (on the switch, of course), as well as Charizard Y, which Gunk Shot doesn't even do. Granted, both moves 2HKO the Pokemon I mentioned, but Thunder Punch tears off bigger chunks of those targets' HP:

I feel that Infernape has little reason to stay in on Fairies, which is why I still stand that Thunder Punch is the better option. Azumarill can just take Infernape out with Aqua Jet; also, a healthy one can survive a Gunk Shot anyways, assuming the poison chance didn't kick in. Even physically defensive Sylveon can take one. In other words, you don't want to risk an 80% accurate attack just to surprise Pokemon Infernape isn't supposed to stay in on anyway:

168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 328-387 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Sylveon: 265-315 (67.2 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Crobat is OHKOed by both Flare Blitz and ThunderPunch after SR anyway, and as you can see the difference is very small.

Physically defensive Sylveon is absolutely horrible and outclassed now that Baton Pass has been nerfed badly. Sylveon needs to take advantage of its massive Special Defense stat, so if it goes defensive, this eeveelution runs 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD with a Calm nature. Calcs in the spoiler.

Spoiler:

76 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 354-419 (89.8 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (guaranteed with Stealth Rock in play)
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 385-455 (97.7 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (guaranteed with Stealth Rock in play)
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 413-489 (104.8 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yes, I get it, Infernape loses to Choice Band variants. However, Azumarill's Assault Vest and Belly Drum sets are more commonly seen, at least from my experience.

Azumarill's usual Assault Vest set is 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 SpD:

Spoiler:

168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 328-387 (95 - 112.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 351-413 (101.7 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 212-252 (72.1 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Belly Drum runs 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe:

Spoiler:

168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 328-387 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 351-413 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Against Talonflame:

Spoiler:

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 192-227 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 291-343 (97.6 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(That means both moves OHKO after Stealth Rock).

Also, Talonflame can barely switch on anything with that pathetic bulk; it's usually a revenge killer that comes in after one of your Pokemon is KOed. And Brave Bird easily OHKOes.

Against Mega Charizard Y:

Spoiler:

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 179-212 (60 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 268-317 (89.9 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Once again, both moves KO after Stealth Rock. However, what if you use ThunderPunch and said Mega Charizard reveals itself to be the X variant?

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 49-58 (16.4 - 19.4%) -- possible 6HKO (lol)
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 133-157 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO (This puts it into Mach Punch's KO range if SR is up)

I'll give you Gyarados.

 

[Nah]

I take it that Thunder Punch vs Gunk Shot is one of those things where both moves have their merits and you just have to play around with them to see what works for you better.

Also, I am using Iron Fist on Infernape. I forgot to edit that in the OP until now, but I believe I mentioned it in an earlier post.

Still waiting on more suggestions for a Vaporeon replacement.....