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Incest

zakisrage

In the trunk on Highway 10
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  • In my family's culture, marriage between first cousins is accepted. It's pretty normal in Lebanon - both Muslims and Christians practice it. Two of my dad's siblings are married to their first cousins. Their kids are all healthy. I don't see anything wrong with it either. My paternal grandfather's parents were first cousins through their mothers. (It's more common among first cousins through the fathers, though - that's what my dad's siblings did.) It's less common nowadays than it used to be, but it's still there.

    As for sibling incest, I think it's gross. Same goes for uncle-niece and aunt-nephew. Parent-child incest is even worse.
     

    Chibi-chan

    The Freshmaker!
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  • Oh my goodness there is a thread on incest in PC.

    That aside, all of you who are for incest should take a quick peek about how this works in the dog breeding world. In order to create a dog that can meet AKC Dog Show high standards, many breeders interbreed their dogs to make sure they have this and that trait to perfection. Because of this, there are awful side effects- side effects that even can cause some dogs to have a skull too small for their brain. While incest is in That Once Sister Anime and Game of Thrones we must must muuuuuust remember that this is entertainment. Why does this stuff peak our interest? Because it's so taboo, it strikes our fancy to see it on television. Should this happen in real life? No.....

    One can look back to the British royal lineage and see where incestuous couplings created various detriments amongst one bloodline. I'm not going to go too much into detail, but hereditary diseases specific to that bloodline were formed. Basic animals aren't even prone to incest. It's not something that is the genetic norm. With over 3 billion people in the world, let's hope you can find someone to love outside of your own blood....
     
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    Genetic diseases or implications should not be an excuse for the indoctrinated view of incest. Whilst incest is not something I would choose to practice, when we're talking about one-off incest there will be no severe impact on a child. The only time this might be a problem would be if incest led to a family only intrabreeding, which isn't likely in the modern world unless they are very isolated. Remember - we also have a tonne of research into genetic diseases, including screening processes and treatments, so even then it's not as much of a problem.

    And what if we start talking about incest between relatives who are not able to/planning on conceiving? What arguments can we use here? 'It's wrong' doesn't quite cover it, there's no explanation to ban or look down on this.

    Incest, between two consenting adults, should not be illegal or considered morally wrong.
     

    Oryx

    CoquettishCat
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    Oh my goodness there is a thread on incest in PC.

    That aside, all of you who are for incest should take a quick peek about how this works in the dog breeding world. In order to create a dog that can meet AKC Dog Show high standards, many breeders interbreed their dogs to make sure they have this and that trait to perfection. Because of this, there are awful side effects- side effects that even can cause some dogs to have a skull too small for their brain. While incest is in That Once Sister Anime and Game of Thrones we must must muuuuuust remember that this is entertainment. Why does this stuff peak our interest? Because it's so taboo, it strikes our fancy to see it on television. Should this happen in real life? No.....

    One can look back to the British royal lineage and see where incestuous couplings created various detriments amongst one bloodline. I'm not going to go too much into detail, but hereditary diseases specific to that bloodline were formed. Basic animals aren't even prone to incest. It's not something that is the genetic norm. With over 3 billion people in the world, let's hope you can find someone to love outside of your own blood....

    Do you then logically believe that adults with Huntington's Disease, a dominant-gene disease that will always have a 50% chance of passing on to children, should never be allowed to have a family with anyone? They are far more likely to have children with a genetic defect than a brother and sister.
     
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  • I think you mean "incest." An "insect" is an arthropod in the class "insecta." In other words, a bug.

    I'm sorry. Sometimes my brain just stops proofreading and will go with words that are spelled similarly. Despite this, it shouldn't have been that hard to understand what I was trying to say.
     

    twocows

    The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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  • Oh my goodness there is a thread on incest in PC.
    Which you would do well to read first, since most all of what you have said has already been addressed. Oryx also made a good point in response to what you said a few posts above mine. I'll restate my reasons why I'm tolerant of it briefly, though.

    That aside, all of you who are for incest should take a quick peek about how this works in the dog breeding world. In order to create a dog that can meet AKC Dog Show high standards, many breeders interbreed their dogs to make sure they have this and that trait to perfection. Because of this, there are awful side effects- side effects that even can cause some dogs to have a skull too small for their brain. While incest is in That Once Sister Anime and Game of Thrones we must must muuuuuust remember that this is entertainment. Why does this stuff peak our interest? Because it's so taboo, it strikes our fancy to see it on television. Should this happen in real life? No.....

    One can look back to the British royal lineage and see where incestuous couplings created various detriments amongst one bloodline. I'm not going to go too much into detail, but hereditary diseases specific to that bloodline were formed. Basic animals aren't even prone to incest. It's not something that is the genetic norm. With over 3 billion people in the world, let's hope you can find someone to love outside of your own blood....
    1. Your argument does not apply to any scenario in which having children is not the goal. Having children is not a necessary component of any of the following: being in love, having sexual relations (contraception), getting married, and having a family (adoption). The only thing a discussion about genetic problems addresses is a situation in which two people want to have children.
    2. Arguing that people should not have children based on their genetic lineage and the possibility of genetic defects is the definition of eugenics, something society (and myself) generally opposes.
    3. Your examples are of excessive inbreeding over several generations. The effects of only one generation of inbreeding are, from what I remember, trivially small, though statistically significant (something like a few tenths of a percentage points higher, but highly correlated). I don't have the numbers for this, though, so I might be wrong on this one. I do know that some of the studies done on the topic back in the 50s have since been overturned, so be careful where any numbers you might find are coming from and that there haven't been any retractions issued.

    Also, while it's technically true there are over three billion people, we passed seven billion in 2012. So that's a bit of an understatement.
     
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  • I don't see why reproduction is such a big deal when 1- not all couples want to have children 2- sex is not only for reproduction, even if it's the cause of it 3- there are many procedures of preventing pregnancy, and guess what: even interfamily couples do it, regardless of their wish of having children or not.

    As twocows said, to be against it just because it has a slight higher chance of genetic problems is eugenics. Should women of advanced age not be allowed to have children for the very same reason? I doubt anyone would agree, even knowing there's a higher chance of genetic problems too.
     

    Chibi-chan

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  • Which you would do well to read first, since most all of what you have said has already been addressed. Oryx also made a good point in response to what you said a few posts above mine. I'll restate my reasons why I'm tolerant of it briefly, though.


    1. Your argument does not apply to any scenario in which having children is not the goal. Having children is not a necessary component of any of the following: being in love, having sexual relations (contraception), getting married, and having a family (adoption). The only thing a discussion about genetic problems addresses is a situation in which two people want to have children.
    2. Arguing that people should not have children based on their genetic lineage and the possibility of genetic defects is the definition of eugenics, something society (and myself) generally opposes.
    3. Your examples are of excessive inbreeding over several generations. The effects of only one generation of inbreeding are, from what I remember, trivially small, though statistically significant (something like a few tenths of a percentage points higher, but highly correlated). I don't have the numbers for this, though, so I might be wrong on this one. I do know that some of the studies done on the topic back in the 50s have since been overturned, so be careful where any numbers you might find are coming from and that there haven't been any retractions issued.

    Also, while it's technically true there are over three billion people, we passed seven billion in 2012. So that's a bit of an understatement.

    This is a discussion is it not? I'm just stating my own opinions in my own words. What kind of statement is it to say 'He said it first so you shouldn't say anything at all?' What's the point of discussion with this kind of reaction? And yes there are over seven billion people in the world, what does that have to do with anything, seven is 'more than three billion right?' Calm down.

    Regardless of what has been said or what numbers you do or do not have, I'm still against it.
     
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    And if I were to compare something that was mentioned in this thread, incest is more natural than gay marriage.[/COLOR][/FONT][/B]

    How do you figure this since throughout history there have been many marriages by same sex couples in cultures all over the world. Same sex attraction is a natural aspect of human sexuality, and in the sexuality of over 1500 species on this planet that have been observed. You can't make a claim that same sex attraction is less natural than other forms of attractions unless you're willing to provide facts to back up your assertions.
     

    twocows

    The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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  • This is a discussion is it not?
    Yes, and discussions are usually give and take. You state something, someone else responds, you build upon that. If there are disagreements, you debate: you advocate your side, the other person advocates theirs, and you both try to come to an understanding.

    I'm just stating my own opinions in my own words. What kind of statement is it to say 'He said it first so you shouldn't say anything at all?'
    I didn't say that. What I said was your argument has already been stated earlier and, I believe, adequately addressed.

    What's the point of discussion with this kind of reaction?
    I was just pointing out that things were going in circles. The point of debate is generally to move forward, to better understand and improve upon our beliefs. Repeating what has already been said isn't really useful to that end.

    As for my reaction in general, I just think that the idea that incest is unethical because of potential genetic resulting from potential childbirth doesn't make sense and shames good people who really have nothing to be ashamed of. People suffer unnecessarily (often severely) because of societal attitudes on incest and I think our attitudes on it are something we should be rethinking, considering the illogical foundation for them.

    And yes there are over seven billion people in the world, what does that have to do with anything, seven is 'more than three billion right?'
    It was just something that sounded weird, so I pointed it out. I don't see why you're questioning it, it is kind of weird to put it that way, and it was really just an afterthought to the meat of what I said. I would have just conceded it and moved on, it shouldn't be that important.

    Calm down.
    At no point have I used any emotionally charged language, insulted you, or done anything other than address the topic at hand. My motivation here is (I thought pretty clearly) not to personally attack you, rather it is to make a convincing argument about why I think what you said doesn't make sense and is ultimately harmful and why I think my position makes more sense.

    Regardless of what has been said or what numbers you do or do not have, I'm still against it.
    You can believe what you want, but the point of a debate is for everyone to better understand the varying positions on a topic, including your own, and progress forward. If someone adequately addresses your argument with a counter-argument, generally you either concede that they're right (either in full or just in part) or you point out why they're wrong. If you make an argument that 2 + 2 equals 5 and someone points out that this is incorrect, you can say "well I believe it anyway" and no one can stop you, but that's kind of missing the point of having a debate in the first place.

    Also, my argument barely touched on numbers at all, and I was even willing to concede that the numbers I gave just came from my memory and thus weren't really solid enough to make a solid argument on. Most of what I said was just logic and rhetoric.
     
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    If someone came up to me and told me in confidence that they had fallen in love with a sibling, I'd not have a problem with it. I'd be as supportive of them as I would any other couple. In my view, so long as no harm is being done, all parties are willing participants and the feelings are genuine between them, they would have all the support from me that I could give. And if their union should one day produce children, I'd love them as I love all my friends and their families.

    Judging people for having feelings is just wrong to me. If you truly love someone, even if it is a family member, and the other person loves you in the same way, then I would only wish you and your partner the best. You would not get any judgement from me.
     
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  • I don't agree with incest/inbreeding under any circumstances - humans and other animals. Think of all the genetic diseases and other issues most pure breed dogs and cats are predisposed to due to inbreeding. Humans are no different.

    Also, relating to scientific studies on the matter. The following is an abstract from a peer reviewed journal with a good impact factor (15). L.F. Keller, D.M. Waller, Trends in Ecology & Evolution, 17(5) 230-241

    Whether inbreeding affects the demography and persistence of natural populations has been questioned. However, new pedigree data from field populations and molecular and analytical tools for tracing patterns of relationship and inbreeding have now enhanced our ability to detect inbreeding depression within and among wild populations. This work reveals that levels of inbreeding depression vary across taxa, populations and environments, but are usually substantial enough to affect both individual and population performance. Data from bird and mammal populations suggest that inbreeding depression often significantly affects birth weight, survival, reproduction and resistance to disease, predation and environmental stress. Plant studies, based mostly on comparing populations that differ in size or levels of genetic variation, also reveal significant inbreeding effects on seed set, germination, survival and resistance to stress. Data from butterflies, birds and plants demonstrate that populations with reduced genetic diversity often experience reduced growth and increased extinction rates. Crosses between such populations often result in heterosis. Such a genetic rescue effect might reflect the masking of fixed deleterious mutations. Thus, it might be necessary to retain gene flow among increasingly fragmented habitat patches to sustain populations that are sensitive to inbreeding.
     

    Raven Valt

    You gave me power in your gods name.
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  • Incest makes me really queasy, due to me being raised in a Christian household. I'm against it due to personal feelings about it, so perhaps it's best if I don't participate in this discussion.

    You're raised by christians yet have an issue with incest? Surely if you pick up a bible and read where it says "Adam and Eve were the first humans" you would understand that by that theory alone we're all inbred, therefore why would Christians have an issue with it?

    This thread is pretty much just so beyond stupid it's unreal, it's one thing to say "My sister is mildly attractive" but would any of you who support incest actually go and try to have sex with any of siblings?
     

    twocows

    The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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  • I don't agree with incest/inbreeding under any circumstances - humans and other animals. Think of all the genetic diseases and other issues most pure breed dogs and cats are predisposed to due to inbreeding. Humans are no different.

    Also, relating to scientific studies on the matter. The following is an abstract from a peer reviewed journal with a good impact factor (15). L.F. Keller, D.M. Waller, Trends in Ecology & Evolution, 17(5) 230-241
    Your study seems to be about excessive inbreeding over several generations, which I don't think anyone believes is a good thing for genetic diversity, though that shouldn't be the only consideration. I also didn't bother to look up the publication date and the errata, which could possibly include retractions in full or part.

    The rest of what you said has already been addressed in my previous posts.

    You're raised by christians yet have an issue with incest? Surely if you pick up a bible and read where it says "Adam and Eve were the first humans" you would understand that by that theory alone we're all inbred, therefore why would Christians have an issue with it?

    This thread is pretty much just so beyond stupid it's unreal, it's one thing to say "My sister is mildly attractive" but would any of you who support incest actually go and try to have sex with any of siblings?
    From what I understand, one Christian response to this is that Adam and Eve were the first humans but not the only humans created by God.
     
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  • I probably should have included the title of the study I quoted: "inbreeding effects in wild populations". They even mention being able to detect issues when the population groups mingle with others. This does not appear to be an article on heavy inbreeding.
     

    Trev

    [span="font-size: 8px; color: white;"][font="Monts
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    This thread is pretty much just so beyond stupid it's unreal, it's one thing to say "My sister is mildly attractive" but would any of you who support incest actually go and try to have sex with any of siblings?

    First, there are over 440,000 members on PC. What's to say there isn't someone on this forum or even in this very topic who practices incest? Second, support is not the word that describes what most people in this thread are saying. I would shoot for tolerate.

    Spoiler:

    The way I've perceived this thread is that while most people aren't okay with it/don't agree with the practice of it, no one is going to go out of their way to stop it. So no, this thread isn't beyond stupid; everyone has different views on different subjects and that's what discussions/debates are for.
     
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    Has anyone considered the possibility of unintentional incest occurring? A case comes to mind where two siblings were given up for adoption to two separate families. By coincidence those two ended up falling in love and even getting married before later discovering that they were in fact biologically brother and sister.
     

    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

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  • How do you figure this since throughout history there have been many marriages by same sex couples in cultures all over the world. Same sex attraction is a natural aspect of human sexuality, and in the sexuality of over 1500 species on this planet that have been observed. You can't make a claim that same sex attraction is less natural than other forms of attractions unless you're willing to provide facts to back up your assertions.

    Marriages between same-sex in the past? Did they marry? I know historically that same-sex relationships happened in the distant past, in Eurasia many of them were between someone younger and older from what I've read up on the history. But marriage rarely comes up. Also...historically while same-sex relationships did happen they were expected to keep them on the down low and not speak about them. I'm a supporter of Same-sex marriage btw, just trying to correct some misconceptions about the past having accepted same-sex marriage.

    I'm not opposed to incest between cousins, or half-siblings (genetically speaking a half-sibling is like a cousin). I read that the chance of having a generic disease is only a small fraction higher among cousins compared to none cousins. Also about incest being natural. I read a theory about the taboo. One is unlikely to incest with their sibling or parents if they know them in their early years as the brain puts those figures into a sort of "family" category. Actually, despite what TV may tell you, that's one of the reasons why childhood friends marrying is so uncommon in real life.
     
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    Marriages between same-sex in the past? Did they marry? I know historically that same-sex relationships happened in the distant past, in Eurasia many of them were between someone younger and older from what I've read up on the history. But marriage rarely comes up. Also...historically while same-sex relationships did happen they were expected to keep them on the down low and not speak about them. I'm a supporter of Same-sex marriage btw, just trying to correct some misconceptions about the past having accepted same-sex marriage.

    This topic is not about same-sex marriages, so I don't wish to bog down the discussion with it. However, I will briefly point out that:

    a) Same-sex marital practices and rituals were recognized both in Mesopotamia and in ancient Egypt. The Almanac of Incantations contained prayers favoring on an equal basis the love of a man for a woman and of a man for man.

    b) In the southern Chinese province of Fujian, through the Ming dynasty period, females would bind themselves in contracts to younger females in elaborate ceremonies. Males also entered similar arrangements.

    c) An example of egalitarian male domestic partnership from the early Zhou Dynasty period of China is recorded in the story of Pan Zhang & Wang Zhongxian. While the relationship was clearly approved by the wider community, and was compared to heterosexual marriage, it did not involve a religious ceremony binding the couple.

    d) Amongst the Romans, there were instances of same-sex marriages being performed, as evidenced by emperors Nero who married an unwilling young boy.

    e) In North America, among the Native Americans societies, same-sex unions have taken the form of Two-Spirit-type relationships, in which some male members of the tribe, from an early age, heed a calling to take on female gender with all its responsibilities. "In many tribes, individuals who entered into same-sex relationships were considered holy and treated with utmost respect and acceptance," according to anthropologist Brian Gilley.

    These marriages were real, they were documented, and recognized. But none of the marriages then, including heterosexual marriages, have any resemblance to what we now call marriage.

    This is all I will say on the subject in this thread.
     

    zakisrage

    In the trunk on Highway 10
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  • I actually noticed first cousin and second cousin couples popping up in anime from time to time. It's legal in Japan, if uncommon. One of the former Prime Ministers of Japan, Naoto Kan, is married to his first cousin.

    Animals don't have an incest taboo, and often mate with close relatives. Heck, Bambi and Faline are supposed to be cousins. (The movie doesn't mention it, but the book does and even some of the tie-in stuff for the movie mentions it!) Still, first cousins is probably the closest you can get without significantly increasing birth defects.
     
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