6th Gen Is it time to fully abandon trainer sprites/mugshots?

[Origin Green]

X and Y not only changed how we saw our Pokemon in battle, but also changed how we saw many of the trainers.

This was done in two ways, we either saw 3D trainers sending out their Pokemon (Team Flare) and we saw other trainers in the form of big sprites(is sprite still the word? Maybe artwork) covering the top screen before battle.

So, my question, is it time to abandon the artwork and go purely for 3D models of trainers? This may be a controversial topic to discuss as anime/sprites/artwork/mugshots has been a staple in the Pokemon franchise since day one.

Personally? I'm ready for change, I felt having half artwork, half 3D felt a bit odd to me, I think it's time for everything to be in glorious 3D.

What do you guys think?

 

[antemortem]

I'm of the opinion that mugshots (the hand drawn art) was included because Ken Sugimori is still a big part of the company and is still being paid to draw official artwork of new Pokemon/Dream World renditions, and this also includes NPCs and other characters. They were probably included as an attempt to keep a bit of the old style of games alive and to not discredit his work, as it was only usually used for publishing in CoroCoro and other magazines that published Pokemon-related news.

 

[Origin Green]

I'm of the opinion that mugshots (the hand drawn art) was included because Ken Sugimori is still a big part of the company and is still being paid to draw official artwork of new Pokemon/Dream World renditions, and this also includes NPCs and other characters. They were probably included as an attempt to keep a bit of the old style of games alive and to not discredit his work, as it was only usually used for publishing in CoroCoro and other magazines that published Pokemon-related news.

Very good point! Where do you stand? Do you feel it should stay in the remakes, or be phased out?

 

[antemortem]

Very good point! Where do you stand? Do you feel it should stay in the remakes, or be phased out?

Personally, I loved that part of XY. However, I would have preferred full body 3D renders for them were also available because I was interested in seeing what they looked like blown up. For instance, all of the rivals, I believe, had full body shots that showed far more detail than their overworld renders, which is what I REALLY wanted to see for leaders like Olympia, Valerie, and Clemont. Maybe instead of two screens with the mugshots (I think that's what XY included) there can be the initial mugshot, followed by a full body shot that has another quick one-liner saying, and the trainer throwing their ball. Of course I'm speaking for major NPCs like rivals and Gym Leaders, and I'm also writing musings and not thinking about it much so I apologize if it's hot air. XD

 

[SnowpointQuincy]

The Trainers are only on screen for a second. And the Art looks nice.

Now in a game like Colosseum, were the enemy trainer is on screen during battle, THEN you would need to 3D model the other guy.

 

[Rivvon]

I will admit, using 3D models for some and 2D artwork for others is a bit jarring, but not by a lot, since the models manage to keep a "Sugimori art" feel. And the thing is, the concept art has to be created regardless so that the modelers know what the characters look like. So we won't stop receiving art, and considering how iconic some trainers can become, I hope that at least for ORAS we are shown artwork in-game for most trainers, except our rivals, the team leaders, and maybe the professor if he can be challenged (which I doubt they would include, but I list just in case).

The other thing that needs to be considered is, is it worth animating introductions for every character? Especially generic NPCs such as Lasses or Youngsters? I'm sure Game Freak's reasoning is that they want the animated 3D intros to be saved for very important, more story-related characters, so they have more of an impact when you do see them (similar to their stereoscopic 3D logic).

 

[Origin Green]

I will admit, using 3D models for some and 2D artwork for others is a bit jarring, but not by a lot, since the models manage to keep a "Sugimori art" feel. And the thing is, the concept art has to be created regardless so that the modelers know what the characters look like. So we won't stop receiving art, and considering how iconic some trainers can become, I hope that at least for ORAS we are shown artwork in-game for most trainers, except our rivals, the team leaders, and maybe the professor if he can be challenged (which I doubt they would include, but I list just in case).

The other thing that needs to be considered is, is it worth animating introductions for every character? Especially generic NPCs such as Lasses or Youngsters? I'm sure Game Freak's reasoning is that they want the animated 3D intros to be saved for very important, more story-related characters, so they have more of an impact when you do see them (similar to their stereoscopic 3D logic).

I thought they where saving it for important characters, which is why I was so baffled at the lack of models for gym leaders, elite 4 and the champion!

 

[Rivvon]

I thought they where saving it for important characters, which is why I was so baffled at the lack of models for gym leaders, elite 4 and the champion!

I understand your logic, but sadly the Gym Leaders, Elite Four, and Champion of Kalos are just not important. They serve no purpose in the plot and are simply hollow shells for you to battle. I can honestly see why they were "grouped" with the generic NPCs and only given 2D art for their introductions.

The league members of Hoenn are a little bit better (Steven and Wallace definitely have importance to the plot) but at that point I'd still like to see their epic 2D art introduce them.

 

[Oshakpop]

I prefer the artwork. I've always wanted Sugimori's artwork to be used in the games and was happy to see it last generation. But I don't think it's a feature that will remain forever; I'm guessing next generation they will indeed move to all 3D models.

 

[Origin Green]

Just saying guys and girls I'm not a hater of the artwork at all and I don't want to come off the wrong way, everyone here is making really good valid points and I hope I made it clear enough in my OP that I don't have anything against the artwork as it is a key element of Pokemon :)

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I don't know about the regular trainers but the gym leaders and elite four should definitely have 3D models in battle.

 

[SkyRyder]

I can see them including both mugshots and 3D models, at least with the Gym Leaders/Elite Four. They can have the mugshot like in XY, then cut to their 3D model sending out their Pokemon. Some players might not like the sudden mixture of 2D and 3D, but I feel this is the best way of doing both. I really don't mind what they do since it didn't bother me in XY.

 

[Altairis]

I'm of the opinion that mugshots (the hand drawn art) was included because Ken Sugimori is still a big part of the company and is still being paid to draw official artwork of new Pokemon/Dream World renditions, and this also includes NPCs and other characters. They were probably included as an attempt to keep a bit of the old style of games alive and to not discredit his work, as it was only usually used for publishing in CoroCoro and other magazines that published Pokemon-related news.

This is exactly what I think! It seemed kind of odd, though, that they didn't have Team Flare-like sprites for the Gym Leaders and E4 and other important characters but it seems kind of like they were experimenting with not having sprites for everyone this gen.

Personally, I thought the art was really nice and it fit in pretty well.

 

[Jellicent♀]

Another +1 to Antemortem's idea of Ken being a part of Pokemon, which he should be. I LOVED the mugshots from X and Y and would love to see so many other Trainer classes with them, as well as a lot of the Gym leaders and Elite Four members with their updated mugs and such. I'd be most excited to see the Magma and Aqua Grunts with their mugs up.

 

[fenyx4]

Okay, let's see if I can converse about this properly (still haven't played XY, but I think that I have somewhat of a grasp on the VS Sprite implementation.. >_>)

I'm of the opinion that mugshots (the hand drawn art) was included because Ken Sugimori is still a big part of the company and is still being paid to draw official artwork of new Pokemon/Dream World renditions, and this also includes NPCs and other characters. They were probably included as an attempt to keep a bit of the old style of games alive and to not discredit his work, as it was only usually used for publishing in CoroCoro and other magazines that published Pokemon-related news.

But don't the various official Pokemon websites use it for online media as well (online Pokedexes; Facebook and Twitter posts, occasional scenes in YouTube videos, etc.), in addition to the various official game guides and "Pokedex" guides (and instruction manuals that get packaged with the game)? I don't see how the artwork would get discredited...a lot of modern games have lots of conceptual artwork that isn't even present in the game itself (more for promotional purposes), so I don't see why Ken Sugimori's artwork needs to be shoehorned in as VS Sprites.. :/

I thought they where saving it for important characters, which is why I was so baffled at the lack of models for gym leaders, elite 4 and the champion!

I understand your logic, but sadly the Gym Leaders, Elite Four, and Champion of Kalos are just not important. They serve no purpose in the plot and are simply hollow shells for you to battle. I can honestly see why they were "grouped" with the generic NPCs and only given 2D art for their introductions.

The league members of Hoenn are a little bit better (Steven and Wallace definitely have importance to the plot) but at that point I'd still like to see their epic 2D art introduce them.

*gasps* LOL; the League members should be important; they're the ones who started the whole "VS Sprite/Artwork" feature in the first place! {XD} Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire had rudimentary versions of it for the Elite Four and Champion (being a blown-up/resized version of the battle sprites) that later got expanded, so I would think that they should get enhanced introductions. And IIRC, Iris (in Pokemon Black 2/White 2) was the only Trainer who received full-body VS Sprite artwork in addition to the player character.. I don't see how Team Flare's battle introductions should get prioritized over the Champion's..!

X and Y not only changed how we saw our Pokemon in battle, but also changed how we saw many of the trainers.

This was done in two ways, we either saw 3D trainers sending out their Pokemon (Team Flare) and we saw other trainers in the form of big sprites(is sprite still the word? Maybe artwork) covering the top screen before battle.

So, my question, is it time to abandon the artwork and go purely for 3D models of trainers? This may be a controversial topic to discuss as anime/sprites/artwork/mugshots has been a staple in the Pokemon franchise since day one.

Personally? I'm ready for change, I felt having half artwork, half 3D felt a bit odd to me, I think it's time for everything to be in glorious 3D.

What do you guys think?

I tend to look at the Sugimori artwork (which looks awesome regardless) a lot if it's displayed online, so I would rather have custom "VS artwork" right before the battle (like Generation 5 games did), be it 2D or 3D (although I guess a unique "VS" 3D model would be more fitting; apparently this was in XY..?). During battle, all Trainers should have 3D "Poke Ball-throwing" models at the very least - otherwise, it feels like you're removing the battle sprites from past Pokemon core series games (I mean, Game Freak even went the extra mile to animate everyone's sprite in battle for Pokemon Black 2/White 2!). It would be quite ambitious for everyone to have unique VS artwork that isn't a simple re-using of the Ken Sugimori artwork, but I would be fine if that was saved for Gym Leaders, Elite 4 members, Champions, Frontier Brains, the rival, and the crime syndicate "Bosses" (like Maxie or Archie) and administrators (like Tabitha and Shelly).

 

[Pepperton]

I remember being surprised when the Sugimori art showed up in my first battle with a trainer in Y. It was not something Nintendo's done before, and I don't really know how I feel about it. The artwork is obviously beautifully done, but I felt like the 3D introduction that Team Flare was granted fit better to the graphic overhaul statement they were making with generation VI. But again, I'm absolutely not against the artwork; it's quite amazing how talented and accomplished Ken is. Simply saying that I would've liked to see all the important trainers receive a similar intro to Team Flare.

 

[Spikeboy]

It was always kinda strange to me that Sycamore, Team Flare and the various rivals got models, but Diantha didn't.
So I kinda hope they at least do that, but it won't kill me if they use the artwork again for the champion/trainers/et cetera.

Actually, I wonder if they'd give Norman a model or anything, since he's your dad and all.

 

[antemortem]

It was always kinda strange to me that Sycamore, Team Flare and the various rivals got models, but Diantha didn't.
So I kinda hope they at least do that, but it won't kill me if they use the artwork again for the champion/trainers/et cetera.

Actually, I wonder if they'd give Norman a model or anything, since he's your dad and all.

I thought that was odd as well.

Norman will receive a model if the other leaders do; he wouldn't get one for being your dad unless you battle him as your dad at some point and not a leader as you would any other time.

 

[Rivvon]

I don't see how Team Flare's battle introductions should get prioritized over the Champion's..!

This is gonna sound harsh, but it's true...there are individual Flare Grunts you meet more times in-game than Diantha! Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the reasoning of giving all Trainers the same treatment, and even of prioritizing the final boss, but it seems they really did prioritize them in terms of plot-relevance in XY when it came down to the 2D versus 3D model intros.

I tend to look at the Sugimori artwork (which looks awesome regardless) a lot if it's displayed online, so I would rather have custom "VS artwork" right before the battle (like Generation 5 games did), be it 2D or 3D (although I guess a unique "VS" 3D model would be more fitting; apparently this was in XY..?). During battle, all Trainers should have 3D "Poke Ball-throwing" models at the very least - otherwise, it feels like you're removing the battle sprites from past Pokemon core series games (I mean, Game Freak even went the extra mile to animate everyone's sprite in battle for Pokemon Black 2/White 2!). It would be quite ambitious for everyone to have unique VS artwork that isn't a simple re-using of the Ken Sugimori artwork, but I would be fine if that was saved for Gym Leaders, Elite 4 members, Champions, Frontier Brains, the rival, and the crime syndicate "Bosses" (like Maxie or Archie) and administrators (like Tabitha and Shelly).

Having custom VS "artwork" would be very cool, definitely. But I think at that point it's a matter of saving costs and utilizing their resources as much as possible--there's no need to create additional 2D artwork when polished concept art exists. And as charming as sprite art is, when placed side-by-side with 3D models it stands out even worse than with 3D models and crisp 2D art.

And honestly, the reason why such Trainer art exists so freely for us from XY is because of the introductions. Sure, we get to see the amazing art of all the major characters, but there's a very scarce amount of generic NPC art that we know of because they never really had to be utilized in-game--all we needed were the sprites. Concept art for them exists, certainly, but until we get a legitimate Pokémon art book, we will probably never see them. And on top of that, they might not even be at the level of finish we're used to from the official art we always get. If everything moved to 3D, including the intros, we probably wouldn't get to see the concept art for minor NPCs as we did for XY.



In terms of ORAS, I'd honestly rather see more 2D intros than 3D, even for the Champion, mainly because it gives Pokémon a bit of a unique flair. Instead of going all-3D like many games, they maintain a bit of their 2D roots in a charming way. Especially at the end of the battle, when you see the 2D artwork of the Trainer again as they impart their "words of wisdom" on you, it reminds me of games where you see the 2D artwork of the character when they speak, which I've always enjoyed.

As for what Game Freak will actually do, it's hard to say, because they may want to keep this distinction, or they may want to move everything to 3D and are just waiting for a specific game to do so (as fenyx4 mentioned, only Cheren, Bianca, and N received animated Trainer sprites in BW, but in B2W2 all Trainers had them).

 

["HoneyClaws"]

I'd prefer it if they did full 3D instead of using the art close ups. The models just feel less contrasting and more realistic. For completely 3D models even within battle would be better. I felt X/Y looked too cartoony at times.

(I mean, Game Freak even went the extra mile to animate everyone's sprite in battle for Pokemon Black 2/White 2!).

Which is sad when you look at X/Y battles to see the pokemon just stand there barely moving in standby as opposed to how they were in Pokemon Colosseum and XD where the pokemon were always in some sort of lively motion. (Vileplume, Spinda, Pidgeotto, Uraring most notably) Now they just stand there doing nothing. X/Y at times can look the the most stiff game ever in battles. You cant even see the trainers behind their pokemon like in the other 3D games, isnt that the point of trainer costumization? To pretend youre the one giving the commands? Why take that out? When it was done perfectly in revolution?