Israel blocks aid fleet from landing in Gaza killing at least 10 people

Red1530 said:
Israel is engaging in a distant blockade which was used by President Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crises. Also concrete can be used to make bunkers to protect Hamas from Israeli air strikes. Israel sends in about 14,000 tones of supplies per week to the Gaza Strip. If there was no blockade then Hamas will be able to rearm without interference.
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Concrete can also be used to build roads for emergency services to use and buildings where people can live. The UN says that Gaza gets only a fraction of the supplies it got before the blockade started a few years ago so that means Israel isn't letting in as much as is needed.
 
NarutoActor said:
Lol Aid ship? It was a terrorist ship -_-
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Do you even have the slightest idea of what you're talking about? Please get all the facts, and then feel free to comment.
 
NarutoActor said:
Lol Aid ship? It was a terrorist ship -_-
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Those evil terrorists, we must stop them before they purify water!

Israel claims that the humanitarians deserved to be shot because the drew knives against them. THEY ONLY PULLED OUT KNIVES BECAUSE YOU SHOT AT THEM WITH AK47s!
 
I don't even know why the US supports Israel. Ugh.

Then Israel whines WHENEVER people complain about them, christ. Take responsibility for YOUR actions, because the world will hold you accountable...
 
NarutoActor said:
Israel is the only democracy in the middle east, that's why we support it. :P
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We're willing to keep supporting an extremely volatile government simply because it's democratic.... fantastic.
 
NarutoActor said:
Israel is the only democracy in the middle east, that's why we support it. :P
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Israel is to democracy what Russia and China are to socialism and what we are to capitalism: horrible, twisted versions of an otherwise reasonable ideal.
 
twocows said:
Israel is to democracy what Russia and China are to socialism and what we are to capitalism: horrible, twisted versions of an otherwise reasonable ideal.
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You are right, kind of. But you need to read my whole post.

Yes, they have a political system that is threatening to destroy them, kind of like us. They have a tri-partisan system, kind of like how we have a bi-partisan system. And alot of their internal collaborations work in a similar way to Survivor, eg they don't always know who's actually in it for the benefit of their country and who's trying to set them up. Kind of like how our politicians have been lately (reference all the job offers that are happening now in Washington).

Their welfare system is also threatening to collapse the economy (like ours). Almost 20 percent of Israeli men aged 35 to 54 aren't working; 27 percent of Arab men and 65 percent of Orthodox Jews don't work, mostly because they'd rather have a life of 'state-subsidized religious study', as they call it. On top of that, the people living off the government become political pawns. Gee, what does this remind us of? Oh right, the U.S.

But the thing is, they're still a Democracy, let alone the last shred of Democracy in the Middle-East. Sure, we don't agree with everything they do; we don't agree with everything Washington does.

Can anyone honestly say that they believe that the President has up until now given a reasonable solution for the illegal immigration issue that's going on in this country (an issue that's gotten so serious that Arizona went into PBM and drafted that controversial legislation regarding it)? Or did (however many) days really need to pass before he started getting in BP's face about the oil spill (which by the way, if Obama was a Republican, the mainstream media would've jumped down his throat from day 1; let's not BS ourselves on that one)? How about all the people that are still against the healthcare reform bill? I can keep going on with this if you want; there's plenty more. But if you can honestly say yes to all that, then you just might be mentally insane.

The fact is, despite everything that the UN has done, all the sanctions, all the other countries that have been against Israel, everything, we've always been their allies... UNTIL OBAMA TOOK OFFICE. Then what happened? He pretty much blew off Israel's leader so nonchalantly, and turned around and started becoming buddies with Muslim countries instead, that the Prime Minister was almost dumbfounded. I think alot of us were. You don't do that to your allies. You just don't. It's like he turned his back on Democracy. And that's not how a President acts. I was sitting there going, 'Is this guy really serious?'. It's going to get to the point where no country is going to trust the US, and rightly so. That's my prediction.

As for the actual current issue with Israel, I'll just say this. Israel gave the ship warning after warning beforehand, they are in a state of war, and I KNOW there's a charter out there somewhere that makes the blockade legal if you're at war with the country in question. I read it before, I just don't remember the name of it; I'll post a link to it if I find it. But it's there. So any points about it being illegal are moot.

And on top of that, the so-called 'peaceful protestors' drew first blood. And there's footage to prove it. And the media has the nerve, the audacity to compare the protestors to Martin Luther King. So I guess that according to the mainstream media, MLK and his supporters were armed with bats and clubs and smuggled weapon parts into the places they were protesting. I'm sorry, but in the words of one of my favorite historical figures, even insolence has its limits.

This is the Book of Revelation. That's all I can say. I don't know how else to describe it. If I did, I would post that instead, but I can't think of any other way to describe it. And that's all I have to say about this.
 
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Red1530 said:
Israel had the right to stop the flotilla as they were trying trying to run the blockade. The flotilla was warned that they were entering the area of hostilities. They were instructed to go to an Israeli port for the cargo to be inspected and then forwarded by land to Gaza. If this was a truly peaceful mission, then they would of cooperated with Israel.

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That doesn't look like a set up scene at all.

Even if it is legit, the man replying clearly isn't English, he could of easily misinterpreted things.
 
SBaby said:
You are right, kind of. But you need to read my whole post.

Yes, they have a political system that is threatening to destroy them, kind of like us. They have a tri-partisan system, kind of like how we have a bi-partisan system. And alot of their internal collaborations work in a similar way to Survivor, eg they don't always know who's actually in it for the benefit of their country and who's trying to set them up. Kind of like how our politicians have been lately (reference all the job offers that are happening now in Washington).

Their welfare system is also threatening to collapse the economy (like ours). Almost 20 percent of Israeli men aged 35 to 54 aren't working; 27 percent of Arab men and 65 percent of Orthodox Jews don't work, mostly because they'd rather have a life of 'state-subsidized religious study', as they call it. On top of that, the people living off the government become political pawns. Gee, what does this remind us of? Oh right, the U.S.

But the thing is, they're still a Democracy, let alone the last shred of Democracy in the Middle-East. Sure, we don't agree with everything they do; we don't agree with everything Washington does.

Can anyone honestly say that they believe that the President has up until now given a reasonable solution for the illegal immigration issue that's going on in this country (an issue that's gotten so serious that Arizona went into PBM and drafted that controversial legislation regarding it)? Or did (however many) days really need to pass before he started getting in BP's face about the oil spill (which by the way, if Obama was a Republican, the mainstream media would've jumped down his throat from day 1; let's not BS ourselves on that one)? How about all the people that are still against the healthcare reform bill? I can keep going on with this if you want; there's plenty more. But if you can honestly say yes to all that, then you just might be mentally insane.

The fact is, despite everything that the UN has done, all the sanctions, all the other countries that have been against Israel, everything, we've always been their allies... UNTIL OBAMA TOOK OFFICE. Then what happened? He pretty much blew off Israel's leader so nonchalantly, and turned around and started becoming buddies with Muslim countries instead, that the Prime Minister was almost dumbfounded. I think alot of us were. You don't do that to your allies. You just don't. It's like he turned his back on Democracy. And that's not how a President acts. I was sitting there going, 'Is this guy really serious?'. It's going to get to the point where no country is going to trust the US, and rightly so. That's my prediction.

As for the actual current issue with Israel, I'll just say this. Israel gave the ship warning after warning beforehand, they are in a state of war, and I KNOW there's a charter out there somewhere that makes the blockade legal if you're at war with the country in question. I read it before, I just don't remember the name of it; I'll post a link to it if I find it. But it's there. So any points about it being illegal are moot.

And on top of that, the so-called 'peaceful protestors' drew first blood. And there's footage to prove it. And the media has the nerve, the audacity to compare the protestors to Martin Luther King. So I guess that according to the mainstream media, MLK and his supporters were armed with bats and clubs and smuggled weapon parts into the places they were protesting. I'm sorry, but in the words of one of my favorite historical figures, even insolence has its limits.

This is the Book of Revelation. That's all I can say. I don't know how else to describe it. If I did, I would post that instead, but I can't think of any other way to describe it. And that's all I have to say about this.
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Disregarding the democracies in Afghanistan and Iraq, the Obama administration has hardly turned away from Israel and started supporting Muslim countries. They were the only international country that made a statement about the incident that wasn't openly hostile to Israel, despite what I feel their response should have been.

All that aside, the ship was in international waters. Israel had no right to board it at that point, and even if the footage is accurate (which is debatable), the activists had every right to defend themselves upon being boarded illegally. And as for "smuggling weapons?" The only "weapons" I heard about were makeshift clubs made from taking apart the ship's railings, and if you think those could even be considered a weapon in a siege with areal bombing runs and missiles and every Israeli and Hamas fighter armed to the teeth with heavy weaponry, I don't think you quite understand how modern warfare works.
 
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twocows said:
Disregarding the democracies in Afghanistan and Iraq, the Obama administration has hardly turned away from Israel and started supporting Muslim countries. They were the only international country that made a statement about the incident that wasn't openly hostile to Israel, despite what I feel their response should have been.

All that aside, the ship was in international waters. Israel had no right to board it at that point, and even if the footage is accurate (which is debatable), the activists had every right to defend themselves upon being boarded illegally. And as for "smuggling weapons?" The only "weapons" I heard about were makeshift clubs made from taking apart the ship's railings, and if you think those could even be considered a weapon in a siege with areal bombing runs and missiles and every Israeli and Hamas fighter armed to the teeth with heavy weaponry, I don't think you quite understand how modern warfare works.
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They also had kitchen knives, don't forget it. And hammers. Enough to invade any Israeli city without any opposition.

Btw SBaby, according to the same treaty that states that blockades are legal in war states, for a blockade to be legal, you need to specify a set date when the blockade will be lifted. Since Israel hasn't, the blockade is illegal.

https://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/57JMSU#5

94. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline.

Oh and:

102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or

(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete
and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:

(a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and

(b) the condition that the distribution of such supplies shall be made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power or a humanitarian organization which offers guarantees of impartiality, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross.

[PokeCommunity.com] Israel blocks aid fleet from landing in Gaza killing at least 10 people

 
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but Went these people are terrorists and we do not negotiate with terrorists and their aid.
 
So not only did they attack a Palestinian aid ship, but they attacked it on international waters and killed 19 people.
They decided to put the Palestinians on a diet even though more than half of the babies born were reported to have anemia.

I find it sick that anyone can defend something as disgusting as this, claiming that it's a terrorist ship when it has toys for children.
 
The Cynic said:


Those evil terrorists, we must stop them before they purify water!

Israel claims that the humanitarians deserved to be shot because the drew knives against them. THEY ONLY PULLED OUT KNIVES BECAUSE YOU SHOT AT THEM WITH AK47s!
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You just showed me that you did not do the research. There is video that shows that the activists made the first move in attacking the Commandos.


Also a recent Reuters Q&A stated that the blockade is legal.
 
Red1530 said:
You just showed me that you did not do the research. There is video that shows that the activists made the first move in attacking the Commandos.


Also a recent Reuters Q&A stated that the blockade is legal.
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The activists defended themselves with parts of the ship they salvaged while being invaded in international waters. If a person with a gun comes into your house, it does not matter if you attacked first, it is still self-defense.
 
Went said:


They also had kitchen knives, don't forget it. And hammers. Enough to invade any Israeli city without any opposition.

Btw SBaby, according to the same treaty that states that blockades are legal in war states, for a blockade to be legal, you need to specify a set date when the blockade will be lifted. Since Israel hasn't, the blockade is illegal.

https://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/57JMSU#5

94. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline.

Oh and:

102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or

(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete
and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:

(a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and

(b) the condition that the distribution of such supplies shall be made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power or a humanitarian organization which offers guarantees of impartiality, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross.

[PokeCommunity.com] Israel blocks aid fleet from landing in Gaza killing at least 10 people

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I'm going to answer all of those, one by one:

94. Israel has followed all those except for what you call the "duration." Duration does not have to be a set time period. For example, we are currently engaged in a blockade against Cuba. Also, a blockade against Europe was in effect for the duration of WWII. They couldn't possibly know when it was going to end.

102

A. While you can argue about the terrible conditions of living in Gaza (and there are terrible conditions), the sole purpose of the blockade is to prevent Hamas, a terrorist organization, from obtaining weapons.

B. Its easy to look down on Israel and say "they've barely been hurt by rockets and are starving the population!" Well, so far Israel has been lucky. Thats the only way to put it. Rockets raining down on border towns every day before Operation Cast Lead made life nearly impossible. If Hamas was able to acquire better weapons from places like Iran, they could fire on cities like Tel Aviv and Jerusalem DAILY. You forget, Israel is a tiny country. This is the most arguable point.

103

A. Israel offered the humanitarian activists to port in Ashdod, undergo a search of materials, and then personally oversee movement of the goods to Gaza. The activists refused. The whole goal was to break the blockade. Also, Israel sends TONS of humanitarian supplies into Gaza daily. You can argue about the amount, but you can't say Israel is doing nothing.

B. Both the Red Cross and the UN are present in Gaza.

Further about the legality of attacking in International Water, that is allowed for a legal blockade, which I believe Israel has. Furthermore, for arguments about Gaza not being an enemy state, so Israel can't blockade it, look to the US Civil War. The Union refused to recognize the Confederacy as a State, yet LEGALLY blockaded it anyway.

Now, having gotten that out of the way, I would like you to think about something. 5 out of the 6 ships were detained without violence. Why? If Israel was intent on boarding and killing, they would have done it on all 6 ships. What happened was stupidity on the side of the military: the commandoes were not trained to deal with resistance. Yes, knives, guns, and pipes shouldn't be a big deal to commandoes, but in the early morning, if something happens you don't plan for, you panic. I deplore the loss of life, but I believe that, honestly, the flotilla planners WANTED this to happen. If they really cared about aid, they would have gone through Ashdod, where they're aid would have been taken to Gaza. They knew their aid wasn't going to get through the blockade. That was the point. They wanted to run the blockade, become martyrs, and draw international sympathy. Israel just walked into their trap.

Living here in America, its easy to blame Israel for anything. But if Cuba was firing rockets daily on Florida, you damn well know we would be full out DECIMATING Cuba this moment. I really do sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians, and I believe in a two-state solution. I don't want them to suffer. But how do you negotiate with a group that has vowed to destroy Israel and establish a state "from the river to the sea" (Hamas)? Israel was acting out of fear. Did they make a blunder? Hell yes. Was the loss of life justified? It never is. Should they have handled the flotilla differently? Yes. They should have disabled it and towed it into Ashdod. But to call the Israelis psychopathic maniacs who love killing Palestinians is just a dumbing down of the situation and throws fuel on the fire. With that attitude, there will never be peace. And while I am saddened by the loss of life onboard the flotillas, I believe those weren't noble ships. They were just attempting to wage more PR war against Israel. And I stand with Israel, and her ability to exercise her right to defend herself, fully.
 
Bards Sword said:
Now, having gotten that out of the way, I would like you to think about something. 5 out of the 6 ships were detained without violence. Why? If Israel was intent on boarding and killing, they would have done it on all 6 ships. What happened was stupidity on the side of the military: the commandoes were not trained to deal with resistance. Yes, knives, guns, and pipes shouldn't be a big deal to commandoes, but in the early morning, if something happens you don't plan for, you panic. I deplore the loss of life, but I believe that, honestly, the flotilla planners WANTED this to happen. If they really cared about aid, they would have gone through Ashdod, where they're aid would have been taken to Gaza. They knew their aid wasn't going to get through the blockade. That was the point. They wanted to run the blockade, become martyrs, and draw international sympathy. Israel just walked into their trap.
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Exactly.

And we have also walked into their trap by siding with the so-called 'aid' ship. This happens all the time, people. Remember Desert Storm? Hussein would deliberately force women and children into military installations that he knew were going to be attacked, because he knew how protesters would react to it, and he knew it would demoralize our troops. It was one of the many war crimes he was executed for! And there are other times when this has happened. So I'd be willing to bet money that a political leader set that whole thing up. But, the mainstream media will never cover that. So if you really want to know if that's true or not, you'll probably have to go to youtube or some other site.
 
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